Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[Drakarska]

I just explained one of the ways it'll work. The in-game browser is pretty cool, especially in the latest major Steam client overhaul. It'll be a really great asset for mods, among other things.

Excellant evasion Sir ( tips hat), you successfully avoided the primary thesis of my 1st question..


You can, of course, pick what groups you want to join. I was just giving an example

Again, kudos. You returned volley by totally avoiding answering said statement by giving me an example.

Ya know, if I were in the 21-30 yr old bracket, which seems to be what your target group is, I might actually be impressed and buy into your glitter. Unfortunately, I fall into the "really old cranky b****** category" who needs to be obsolete. Fortunately for me, by being in that bracket, my kids actually respect my opinion ( even the oldest who falls within your "group) and are not really impressed either. Funny how when your repeatedly given misinformation or fail to be given accurate details to specific inquiries that tends to happen.

 

[The_J]

Sorry Greg, but your answer for the single player above isn't satisfactory.

You will not believe it, the explanation should be satisfactory.
If the devs do not have to think about all the MP stuff, they can concentrate more on the single player part and do their best there.
From a developers technical point of view using steam is completly understandable.
(From a PR/customer interaction point of view it's mixed.)

 

[nerd]

Again, kudos. You returned volley by totally avoiding answering said statement by giving me an example.

Ya know, if I were in the 21-30 yr old bracket, which seems to be what your target group is, I might actually be impressed and buy into your glitter. Unfortunately, I fall into the "really old cranky b****** category" who needs to be obsolete. Fortunately for me, by being in that bracket, my kids actually respect my opinion ( even the oldest who falls within your "group) and are not really impressed either. Funny how when your repeatedly given misinformation or fail to be given accurate details to specific inquiries that tends to happen.

I agree completely.<p>
All this talk of steam making mods easier, yet they completely ignore the whole issue of forced patches.
I am attempting to be patient, as Greg promises a FAQ by the end on the month, but sadly, I expect the answers to be as bland and evasive as those given so far.
I need unequivocal, definite answers,not "should" or "probably".<p> We, as a group, need to be assured that the statements of fact by Greg are backed by the developers, and if proven to be false, the company will take returned games for refund.

 

[2K Greg]

they completely ignore the whole issue of forced patches.

On the contrary, it's something we're looking in to quite a bit. The game isn't finished yet, and the team is hard at work developing it. Because of this, many things just aren't set in stone yet. So that makes things a little difficult because I want to provide you with unequivocal, definite answers.

I appreciate the patience!

 

[isndl]

Just a question for the Steam haters...who exactly of you lot use Steam? For one person like me, who uses it extensively, some of these issues you are raising are quite ridiculous. Also, how many of you have used Steam after Half-Life 2 (because even I would admit that it was terrible prior to that point!)

This isn't really the thread for this, so I'll keep this brief: I use Steam. I have Steam running right now. I have hundreds of hours logged across L4D1/2 and TF2. I still think Steam is a poor direction to take CiV.

If you want to discuss this more in-depth, this should be taken to private messages or a separate thread.

 

[Celebithil]

In the subscriber agreement to Steam it says

"Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account, but it may choose to do so."

which, if I understand it correctly says that Steam is allowed to kill your account on their *suspicion* of illegal conduct (i.e. even if you have not done anything wrong; if you complain they would only need to show they suspected you were doing something illegal, even if that suspect was based on complete nonsense); moreover they can do it even if you just win too many multiplayer games thereby reducing the enjoyment of those who lose all the time. While I suspect they will not end the agreement if you win too many games, the agreement seems to say they can.

So my question is: Is this part of the agreement valid when I buy the software in the European Union in view of Directive 93/13/EEC on unfair terms in consumer contracts?

Also, would I be forced to (without recompense) lose my ability to play Civilization V if Valve changes the subscriber agreement in a way with which I do not agree in view of item 12 in the subscriber agreement?

(I just looked up the EULA for Civilization IV and noticed that I have always violated it; my version says that I "must run the Software from the included CD-ROM", while my version came on a DVD. I was not worried about that license, because it was basically unenforceable, as long as I just installed the game on my own computer; now however I need Steam to play the game, and they can easily remove it from a distance).

PS Before people say that Steam does not end accounts without reason in practice; I would suppose they wouldn't, but that does not make me happy to give them the right to completely screw me over, without me having a chance to complain. My problem is that where the previous games I bought where essentially a direct transaction with my paying coinciding with my getting the possibility to play the game; now I have to pay up front and be left on the mercy of some big business company (who will likely not get money from me in any foreseeable future as I hardly ever buy computer games) to actually benefit.

 

[allypower]

2K Greg still hasn't answer my question. Do we own the game we buy or not? How does this contradict section D in Steam subscriber Agreement.

 

[Drakarska]

Oh I can't wait for the answer to this one. How about it Greg? is this one going to be covered by your FAQ? or will you be able to answer this one right away?

Not trying to come across as taunting on this one actually ( I have my moments ), but this question has definite validity to it.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I did my best to explain that in the posts you quoted in your post.

It's ok if you've done your best. I'm still confused and to be honest those answers are pretty vague.
I'll do a bit of my own research.

The advantages I can gather from this brochure on Steamworks, presumably an ad directed at developers and/or publishers:
(paraphrased)

• Steam gives you access to 25 million gamers.
• Matchmaking/lobbies
• In-game DLC - allowing customers to select, buy and use DLC all without leaving the game
• Steam community - friends will see freinds playing and will want to join
• Anti-cheat
• Access from any PC
• Achievements, leaderboards, profiles, avatars help to build your community and provide uers with incentive to play more and recruit others
• Voice chat
• Official groups
• Auto-updating - Your community stays current, and your support burden will be significantly reduced with steamworks auto-updating features
• Real time worldwide activation and usage reports give you information you need to make informed decisions about marketing and retail conditions when they need to be made
• Free weekends and guest passes
• Key-based authentication
• Territory control - games can be set to authenticate only in specific regeions - avoid unauthorized use
• Steam Anti-Piracy. Steamworks' anti-piracy features protects your game without limiting the user exerperience for your customers
• Development tools - helps to speed up your development process
• Updatable Installer - your installer can be auto-updated even after delivering a gold master, ensuring your customers have the best experience from the first time they play.

From what I can tell, many of those things are attractive to the developer/publisher (obviously, if it's in a brochure for them). Depending on your perspective, some of the things in the list can easily be seen as either negative, positive or neutral from a gamer's (customer's) point of view.

If the official line is that Steamworks is allowing you to make a better game because it means a lot of the tasks you would otherwise need to do are already done, that's fine.

Perhaps you can let us know if any of the things on the list are definitely not applicable (e.g. DLC ) or things that definitely are (e.g. auto-updating?).

Another question that came to mind from this brochure is in regards to Territory control and I consider this an important thing to ask you.
If I were to get the game as a gift from someone outside my territory, would I be able to play it in my territory? It sounds like keys can be locked to specific regions.

EDIT
I just remembered in a previous press release some of this was covered:

Sid Meier's Civilization V players will enjoy the benefits of the Steamworks' features included in all PC versions such as auto-updating, Steam Achievements, downloadable content, multiplayer matchmaking and more.

Is that implying that downloadable content and auto-updating are definitely in? Or just a generic comment saying this is what steamworks is able to provide? I think a lot of people are very concerned about auto-updating so I hope feedback about that has been passed on to Firaxis and Valve.

 

[Achilleslastand]

2K Greg still hasn't answer my question. Do we own the game we buy or not? How does this contradict section D in Steam subscriber Agreement.

Its more of a rental. And god forbid they put out a inferior product,once you link it to your steam account it cant be sold ,traded or even given away.

 

[Grouchey]

Count me as someone else who remains confused. Didn't 2K outsource multiplayer services to Game Spy for CIV IV? How does switching to Steam this time free up more of their time to develop this game? I guess Greg isn't authorized to share details of 2K's deal with Steam.

Interesting reference to DLC in the press release -- pretty hard to argue it's only talking about other games lol

 

[myturn]

I know I said that I’ll refrain from further suggestions but this is just hard to resist.

So here’s something of a middle ground I could live with:
When I double-click Civ5 icon on my desktop, game launches without Steam.
In the opening menu among other standard options I see:
Multiplayer => which leads to:
- LAN game
-Go Online (starts Steam)
I’m pretty sure that would end over 90% of discussion here. And more people would buy and recommend the game. At least I would. (and we could all go dancing with Drakarska )
But I’m not holding my breath here. And please don’t give me obvious piracy argument.

I wander (no, not really) why people who start defending DRM always end up with piracy as a main reason for imposing such ________ measures on costumers?

Could you name one game, one application, one DRM-ed intellectual property which hasn’t been cracked already? (i.e. name type of DRM that hasn’t been hacked)
You can’t? Didn’t think so.

Someone said: ‘Locks are made for honest people.’ Think about it.

And in case of software locks, the way things are today, every new one that is made makes things harder only for those who pay. It’s that simple. It shouldn’t be but yea, it is that simple.

Piracy is not reason for DRM. It’s just excuse.

Spoiler :

have fun reading comments

 

[radioplug]

Its more of a rental. And god forbid they put out a inferior product,once you link it to your steam account it cant be sold ,traded or even given away.

Wait? Are you saying you want to sell, trade, or give away a Civ game? I didn't think that was possible.

 

[Kierkegaard]

Well I was looking to pre-order Civilization V deluxe through steam today and something held me back. I don't know if the thread is really ment to talk about payment questions of steam aswell; so sorry if it isn't.

The thing is that I don't have any creditcard and I don't have visa. I do however own a mister cash card and with that I can make direct online transfers.

Click and Buy (which u can use to pay with in Steams) accepts that. But only steam won't allow them I think. When I try paying with clickandbuy through Steam they keep asking me a creditcardnumber.

Even if I want to use Paypal, they ask a creditcardnumber. :s

Is there any other way without a creditcard you can pre-order and buy Civilization V with mister cash/ a direct bank transfer?

 

[Davor]

I did my best to explain that in the posts you quoted in your post.



The use of Steam is in no way meant to replace the Civfanatics community! The Steam features should allow you to interact with the Civfanatics community even easier than before. The in-game web browser allows you to, for example, open up CFC threads from within the game to use as quick reference, or to easily post about the game you're playing.

That's just one example. Another is the way you can create a Steam group and invite a bunch of likeminded people (I'm sure there will be a CFC group!) to make inviting to multiplayer games much easier.

In no way is 2K or Firaxis trying to replace our many awesome community sites.




It doesn't.



Like most games, you can install the game off the DVD, which prevents you from needing to download the game. There will still be a boxed version in the store.

Thank you for your explanations. What I don't understand if I am installing the game from a DVD, why do I need Steam to verify it or activate it? I thought that is what the DVD's do.

Also since I have Steam verify the game for me, does this mean that I do not need to put the DVD in anymore to run the game? I would like that alot that I would not need the DVD to be in my laptop to play the game if installed from a DVD.

Again thank you for answering my questions. Instead of buying this game at a store, I might get it off Steam then so I don't have to worry about DVD's then. I am just hoping if I do buy the DVD so I don't have to wait along time to download the game from Steam, that I will not need to put the DVD inside to play then. I am starting to like this, if this is the case.

 

[bjbrains]

Thank you for your explanations. What I don't understand if I am installing the game from a DVD, why do I need Steam to verify it or activate it? I thought that is what the DVD's do.

Also since I have Steam verify the game for me, does this mean that I do not need to put the DVD in anymore to run the game? I would like that alot that I would not need the DVD to be in my laptop to play the game if installed from a DVD.

Again thank you for answering my questions. Instead of buying this game at a store, I might get it off Steam then so I don't have to worry about DVD's then. I am just hoping if I do buy the DVD so I don't have to wait along time to download the game from Steam, that I will not need to put the DVD inside to play then. I am starting to like this, if this is the case.

Well, simply put: Steam now replaces the role of the DVD in recognizing the game, the DVD now simply contains data necessary to install the game, making the process easier on those with weak/bandwith limited internet connections. Also: No, you won't need to put the DVD in the drive again, and the game will be linked to your steam account whether you buy it through steam or retail (Thus allowing you to redownload even if you lose the physical components).

 

[Davor]

Well, simply put: Steam now replaces the role of the DVD in recognizing the game, the DVD now simply contains data necessary to install the game, making the process easier on those with weak/bandwith limited internet connections. Also: No, you won't need to put the DVD in the drive again, and the game will be linked to your steam account whether you buy it through steam or retail (Thus allowing you to redownload even if you lose the physical components).

Thank you, I am starting to like Steam now, and I am hoping my fears about it are now unfounded. Still leary, but grwoing to like it a bit more now. I guess I will buy Civ V now and then will find out first hand how Steam is.

Funny, I just noticed I already have steam because I downloaded a demo for Dawn of War II. So I guess I don't need to make a new account now, I just use what I have.

But the only thing that bothers me now, is this. What does Steam do as DRM that a DVD dosn't? Should I be making a new post for this or not?

 

[Drakarska]

@ MyTurn: Bro, when you get into your 40's and holding range, and your significant other goes into her "change of life", you definitely take up dancing when she tells you too . The other alternative is listening to a shrill, teradactyl-like screech that will surely decalcify your spinal column . Just a bit of friendly advice.

As for being OT: I have actually used Steam. My 2 oldest boys have used Steam. Quite a few friends and family have used Steam. And all of us absolutely hate it. There are too many reasons why for me to get into it, but suffice to say that I would willingly face the wrath of the teradactyl from hell than put Steam on any of my computer systems again.

As a consumer, I have that nifty ability of choice. If that means I choose not to purchase Civ V, then so be it. However, that doesn't mean I should blindly accept what anyone tells me would "be good" for me without substantiated reasearch. Again, my choice.

I may get called a " Steam- Hater", and that's ok. I have good reason to hate Steam. My choice again. But what a lot of you "Steam- Lovers" ( fair is fair guys ) seem to fail to understand is that while your promoting all this greatness about your product, you seem to want to blow by peoples choices. In the end, it's what it really is all about.

 

[jabberwalkee_]

2K Greg still hasn't answer my question. Do we own the game we buy or not? How does this contradict section D in Steam subscriber Agreement.

This is a complex legal question that nobody (including lawyers) can really answer. The part of the steam EULA you quoted refers to "steam software" though, not the games you install. Regardless, in the sense you mean, you probably haven't "owned" a computer game any time in the last 20 years. See Shrink Wrap Contract and EULA.

If those agreements have legal force then at best what you are purchasing is a licence to use software and often that licence is not legally transferrable. So really, you aren't buying anything in the normal sense.

The only step further steam takes this is allowing you to not get anything physical when you buy that license. Somewhere on the Steam site it says that it's their policy to update steam in such a way that games will not require activation if the service is ever to be removed.

EDIT:
And to those deeply suspicious of Steam, consider the alternatives. Steam is by far the least bad method of copy-protection/DRM on the market. Compare Securom, Persistent connection even Always having the CD in the drive. They all cause considerably more trouble than Steam. Sure, they could go without copy protection/DRM, but that might make the people with the money nervous. And that means less money for development OR more pressure on deadlines, neither of which are positive for the game we all want to play.

The other nice thing about steam is that it serves some other good purposes. It provides services WITH the compulsory nature of all DRM/copy protection. The In-game web browser for example is excellent. Everyone here can benefit from being able to see this forum while playing. Then there is all the community/update/mod/whatever stuff that you can like or not like as you please.

The point is, if there has to be copy protection (which for most non-independant studios is the case) One-time steam activiation is the least nasty and it comes with lots of other nice things.

 

[Drakarska]

Lol, Way to promote the Steamworks Jab. It's interesting that your only painting him a nice pretty picture instead of giving him both sides of the equation.

@ Ally: just start doing your own research before you actually make up your mind bro. Just take a couple of hours and surf Valve/Steam forums, FAQ's, and CS links. While your at it, might want to spend an hour or two researching 2k as well.