Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[Tatran]

It's about bad guys getting ahold of that info and using it against you.[/B].

Anyone who sees an opportunity to make a profit will do this, not only criminals.

 

[kozzer]

How is this any different than what Google, Facebook, XBox Live, or countless other online services do? They all collect info regarding your usage and mine it for advertising or sale to marketing firms.

I hope everyone who is opposed to Steam because of privacy concerns doesn't use GMail, Chrome, Facebook, iTunes, GIS, IE, Windows, credit cards, debit cards, movie rental services, GPS systems, cell phones, etc etc etc. They all require you to sign a EULA or something similar, where you agree to share personal information related to your use of their service.

I completely understand the concern, but don't understand why people are so passionately hating on Steam and not all these other services as well.

 

[The_J]

How is this any different than what Google, Facebook, XBox Live, or countless other online services do? They all collect info regarding your usage and mine it for advertising or sale to marketing firms.

And you will not believe it: I hate them all for that .

I hope everyone who is opposed to Steam because of privacy concerns doesn't use GMail, Chrome, Facebook, iTunes, GIS, IE, Windows, credit cards, debit cards, movie rental services, GPS systems, cell phones, etc etc etc. They all require you to sign a EULA or something similar, where you agree to share personal information related to your use of their service.

Some things can be avoided, some not, and you should always try to minimize the amount of data you give away.

I completely understand the concern, but don't understand why people are so passionately hating on Steam and not all these other services as well.

Because now the data craving has now reached our biggest passion .

 

[Thyrwyn]

So, non VAC-secured servers are not cheater-infected?
Or was he wrong in his statement that there are not so many of the non-VAC servers?

Anyway, I still don't get why putting both statements together for you makes for a worst case scenario?

How about this: Civ multi-player has never relied on servers, VAC or otherwise.

Are non-VAC servers full of cheaters? Maybe, but how is that relevant to CIv?

 

[kozzer]

And you will not believe it: I hate them all for that .

I do believe it if you say so - I have no reason to doubt your word. And I know this is a Civ forum, so I'm not pointing this comment at the people here, but rather in general: I don't see people frothing at the mouth because of the same stuff going on everywhere else. Maybe it's there and I'm not seeing it, yet people still use all the services I listed above and many of those have increased usership year in and year out.

Some things can be avoided, some not, and you should always try to minimize the amount of data you give away.

Agreed, in general. But who uses cash exclusively? Because that's the only way you're not building up a database of your spending habits that are being sold to marketing firms. And Steam does far less invasive data mining than, say, Visa does. At least Valve doesn't have your SSN.

Because now the data craving has now reached our biggest passion .

Obviously, at least for many on this board.

I guess perhaps it's a misinterpretation on my part, but it really seems to me that Valve/Steam is being singled out here when what they're doing is absolutely common (and practically unavoidable in our society, unless you exclusively use cash and live "off the grid" - or should I say "off the hex" now? ), and their version is much less invasive than many others'. But I do understand the concern, and I share it. Just not enough to not use Steam.

 

[The_Coyote]

I guess perhaps it's a misinterpretation on my part, but it really seems to me that Valve/Steam is being singled out here

It´s not really singled out, but this is the civ5 forum and because steamworks is bundled with civ5 it is discussed here (part of the game). The discussion about data mining in general would be off topic here (there is no direct connection with civ5)

 

[White Elk]

How is this any different than what Google, Facebook, XBox Live, or countless other online services do? They all collect info regarding your usage and mine it for advertising or sale to marketing firms.

I hope everyone who is opposed to Steam because of privacy concerns doesn't use GMail, Chrome, Facebook, iTunes, GIS, IE, Windows, credit cards, debit cards, movie rental services, GPS systems, cell phones, etc etc etc. They all require you to sign a EULA or something similar, where you agree to share personal information related to your use of their service.

I completely understand the concern, but don't understand why people are so passionately hating on Steam and not all these other services as well.

Besides Windows, I use no service that scans my machine looking for data. Netflix might track the movies I stream, Google might track my web navigation, and my bank might track what purchases I make using that account.... but no other service beyond the Windows OS actually scans my machine for personal data. And no single service has access to it all like steam would have. And with the other services I have some control over what information is shared. They ask, I give (if it suits me). steam just takes. And its a mystery as to exactly what they are taking.

When required to provide my full name for things like GMail or Skype, I use obviously fake names like Dave Wontdisclose. Same with non-billing address requests. When services like Amazon require factual billing info, I research the company first. I checked steam out before even knowing all the stuff that became a concern to me. I just like knowing something about a company before using their software. I researched it awhile then came to the conclusion that I wont be installing it on my machine. I have however installed Stardocks Impulse. There is a host of reasons why I wont install steam but am happy to install Impulse.

 

[Senethro]

Besides Windows, I use no service that scans my machine looking for data. Netflix might track the movies I stream, Google might track my web navigation, and my bank might track what purchases I make using that account.... but no other service beyond the Windows OS actually scans my machine for personal data. And no single service has access to it all like steam would have. And with the other services I have some control over what information is shared. They ask, I give (if it suits me). steam just takes. And its a mystery as to exactly what they are taking.

When required to provide my full name for things like GMail or Skype, I use obviously fake names like Dave Wontdisclose. Same with non-billing address requests. When services like Amazon require factual billing info, I research the company first. I checked steam out before even knowing all the stuff that became a concern to me. I just like knowing something about a company before using their software. I researched it awhile then came to the conclusion that I wont be installing it on my machine. I have however installed Stardocks Impulse. There is a host of reasons why I wont install steam but am happy to install Impulse.

Don't keep us in suspense, tell us. If you're a morally good person you won't hide information from us that will lead us to make bad decisions and be harmed.

What information does Steam take? Be specific please. Why is Steam worse than Impulse?

Edit: You edited your post to admit you can't answer before I even finished replying. How convenient.

 

[bjbrains]

Besides Windows, I use no service that scans my machine looking for data. Netflix might track the movies I stream, Google might track my web navigation, and my bank might track what purchases I make using that account.... but no other service beyond the Windows OS actually scans my machine for personal data. And no single service has access to it all like steam would have. And with the other services I have some control over what information is shared. They ask, I give (if it suits me). steam just takes. And its a mystery as to exactly what they are taking.

When required to provide my full name for things like GMail or Skype, I use obviously fake names like Dave Wontdisclose. Same with non-billing address requests. When services like Amazon require factual billing info, I research the company first. I checked steam out before even knowing all the stuff that became a concern to me. I just like knowing something about a company before using their software. I researched it awhile then came to the conclusion that I wont be installing it on my machine. I have however installed Stardocks Impulse. There is a host of reasons why I wont install steam but am happy to install Impulse.

Have to call you on this: What are these hosts of reasons? You claim that steam "scans your computer for personal data". How? What does it scan for? Don't make bold claims without a shred of evidence. You also do realize that you don't need to enter personal information to make an account and register games, right? (that's only when you buy, for billing purposes). In other words, back up your stuff with real evidence instead of vague conspiracy theories.

 

[The_Coyote]

What information does Steam take? Be specific please.

Let´s play the game: How about providing a legal binding and complete list* of all information gathered by steam, in which context this data is collected and the usage (and limitation of the usage) of this collected data? Should be available, or?

* also a bit more than providing a defintion and the grouping of the collected data (personal, individual, aggregated)

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@ bjbrains

you know there is a minor difference between enter actively and collected. Only as quick example, i almost never enter my ip adress, but nevertheless i know the adress can be collected and in certain countries the ip adress itself (perhaps bundled with an account) is a personal information.

 

[Senethro]

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

Mostly covered there, other than that theres the voluntary hardware survey.

Can anyone suggest something I've missed?

 

[The_Coyote]

do your really think i didn´t looked at the privacy policy more than once til know. Please provide some examples for the individual data? Or please post which data will be aggregated. Please post situation where this individal data is collected (you know complete and legal binding list). Should be there, nothing is missing, or?

But you wanted one missing example. Following the steamworks features there is a CEG (and following guesses made by 2k Greg it will be part of Civ5 - but it´s at least not the final word so far) which uses hardware information to generate a custom executable for you. Please point me to the part where is written that this hardware data (which can´t be opt out and shall be unique for your pc) will be limited in use to the CEG and will be never part of the individual or aggregated information or even an asset of Valve. Is this hardware data connected with your account or not? Or please point me to the part, who says if the IP or the MAC adress is collected. Is the IP a personal or an individual information? Or please point me to the part that the hardware data collected throu bug reports is solely used for the bug fixing and that this data is used in no other way (eg as part of aggregated information)? Also please point me to the part in which way the individual information are used (you know two times: "may be used to ..." - can´t be seen a complete list - where is the "will not be used")?

Do you find legal binding answers to this and answer with quotes and will you provide the complete and legal binding list - i missed so far - or will you counter already now with the well know "why you don´t thrust in Valve? argument".

 

[Senethro]

I'd never even heard of CEG, so I'm not going to pretend I know anything about it. I'd hope that a custom executable can be generated solely on your computer without the need for data collection.

Anonymous aggregate data is zero risk.

We are looking at the same privacy policy? "May be used" occurs once in it for me. Also, "may be used" implies that it may not be used at all, not that the list of things that it may be used for is incomplete.

 

[Thyrwyn]

The CEG, if I understand it correctly, is the core of the Steam DRM. It generates a unique signature based on game and the PC hardware. I presume that at game start up, the Steam exe chacks the CEG against your PC: if they match, game on; if not, the game won't run until it checks in with Steam central, confirms you have registered that game with Steam, and generates a new CEG.

1) This prevents the game from working were someone to move the game to a new PC (piracy). I think it's a rather elegant system, and there is no inherent need for the data to be stored by Steam, whether linked to your account or not (since you are allowed to install on several PCs). Whether they do collect and store this data is unclear.
2) Even if they do, I personally do not have a problem with said data being stored as aggregated data, some people do.
3) I am biased towards the software-as-creative-property side of the argument.

 

[The_Coyote]

I'd never even heard of CEG, so I'm not going to pretend I know anything about it. I'd hope that a custom executable can be generated solely on your computer without the need for data collection.

can be, must not. I don´t know, but it´s the job of Valve to clarify this things

Anonymous aggregate data is zero risk.

don´t underestimate statisticans - but atm only with a lot of assumption the information can be problematic. More problematic are the individual inforamtion. And while i have a definition what Valve defines as individual informations i have no idea in which context the data is collected and what exactly are the individual informations, we only know

that personally identifies any user or enables the recipient to communicate directly

Personally identifies should be the clear name - but if eg unique hardware data is covered by this? Recipients to communicate directly should mean without further data there is no ability to make contact (Email, phone number, exact adress) - Region or street (sometimes even the house) is not really covered by this?

We are looking at the same privacy policy? "May be used" occurs once in it for me. Also, "may be used" implies that it may not be used at all, not that the list of things that it may be used for is incomplete.

Hopeful yes, but there is no guarantee - Valve knows the region where is live - , but you were correct, it was only one time "may be used". But i can be wrong here, but while i agree that "may be used" does in fact include that they are not used this way but that they can be used this way, i fail to see (can be caused by my language skills) why "may be used" includes informations if the list is complete or incomplete (imo it´s only an assumption, you assume the list is complete, others not).

Spoiler :

Valve may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties.

This information may be used to improve Valve's products and online sites, for internal marketing studies, or simply to collect demographic information about Valve's users.

but you were correct, it´s was only one time "may be used" and one time "may share"

There are imo alot of "holes" (if my understanding is correct - i would prefer a native language version, but there is non available), where if you read this paper you can assume things (like that the list is complete, ...), but this things are not really guarenteed. Again as example. the usage of the hardware data collected via bug reports - solely used for the bugfixing and afterwards deleted (something likely to assume) or is there an additional use (something also possible)?

 

[kozzer]

Besides Windows, I use no service that scans my machine looking for data.

Really? You have it installed, right? You use Windows update?

Netflix might track the movies I stream, Google might track my web navigation, and my bank might track what purchases I make using that account.... but no other service beyond the Windows OS actually scans my machine for personal data.

What does Steam scan that's not related to Steam? Plus, GMail data mines every single character you type, who you type it to, and when you type it. What's more invasive - all of your personal communications, or your CPU serial #?

And no single service has access to it all like steam would have.

"access to it all"? How so? What is "it all"? Have you analyzed what Steam does and the HTTP communications?

And with the other services I have some control over what information is shared. They ask, I give (if it suits me). steam just takes. And its a mystery as to exactly what they are taking.

I don't think you have as much control as you think you do.

When required to provide my full name for things like GMail or Skype, I use obviously fake names like Dave Wontdisclose. Same with non-billing address requests. When services like Amazon require factual billing info, I research the company first. I checked steam out before even knowing all the stuff that became a concern to me. I just like knowing something about a company before using their software. I researched it awhile then came to the conclusion that I wont be installing it on my machine. I have however installed Stardocks Impulse. There is a host of reasons why I wont install steam but am happy to install Impulse.

Why is Steam different than any other online service? That's what it comes down to for me - while I'd prefer not to have Steam on my PC, the benefits to me are worth it. Everyone collects data on you in everything you do. Why is Impulse more acceptable than Steam? You did the research, let us benefit.

 

[Nick Danger]

What information does Steam take? Be specific please...

Good question.

That's what many have been asking. Elizabeth 2k was unable to answer, and so far Greg hasn't been able to either.

Thank you for adding your voice to those asking for an answer to:
-what personally identifiable information is collected?
-who are the 'third parties' and 'associates' it's shared with?
-what uses is it put to?

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

Mostly covered there, other than that theres the voluntary hardware survey.

Can anyone suggest something I've missed?

Sure.

I covered this HERE. I can see how you missed it as it was well hidden. Lessee now, where was it posted. Oh yeah -- here in this thread, and you have a post 6 spots below it.

You don't know what personally identifiable information is collected. Even you say it's 'mostly' covered there -- in PR speak that's enough wriggle room to drive a leaking oil tanker through. You're acting on faith. That's your right, but at least be honest about that.

Criticizing those who believe caution is prudent instead of sharing your faith... well, that's your right too.

 

[Nick Danger]

How is this any different than what Google, Facebook, XBox Live, or countless other online services do? They all collect info regarding your usage and mine it for advertising or sale to marketing firms...

Ummm... this disproves your point. The fact that there are other information collectors makes this issue more important, not less.

Permit me to elucidate: A man on a ship notices a leak. When he points it out, other passengers who are lounging around unconcerned tell him "don't worry about it, there's 20 more leaks just like that one".

You're the other passengers.

 

[Willem]

What does Steam scan that's not related to Steam?

That's the thing, we have no idea what it's capable of scanning. That makes some people rather nervous.

Why is Steam different than any other online service?

It's not the issue that Steam is an online service, it's that Civ for many people is a single person activity that doesn't really require anything to do with being online in the first place.

Why is Impulse more acceptable than Steam?

Because Impulse allows you the option of completely removing it from your system while still being able to play the games it deals with. Not so with Steam.

 

[CommandoBob]

It's not the issue that Steam is an online service, it's that Civ for many people is a single person activity that doesn't really require anything to do with being online in the first place.

I agree.

Or to say it another way:

I want to marry Civ5, but when I marry Civ5 I am also agreeing to care for her half-witted, semi-malicious, ten year old brother named Steam, who doesn't really like me. That is a real passion-killer. I want Civ5 all to myself, with no distractions.