Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[The_Hess]

While you are certainly right that Valve own series created the foundation of the steam user base, you certainly agree that Valve hasn´t released real TBS blockbuster games so far (at least i must have missed all of them). Also CoD (which seems to be much more successful on consoles) is more a game for a FPS player.

If you mean the Total War" series with TW, not sure if you can really add this game (only ETW is a steamworks games, or?) as "prove" for steams popularity. While the number of accounts certainly got a boost because of this (also because of DoW2 and the other steamworks strategy games), it´s hard to conlude a popularity boost for steam itself. Simply because none of us can deliver real figures how many gladly accepted the "require steam" step and how many only accepted the need to create a steam account to play the game and still dislike steam. Or how many still don´t care, which is perhaps the majority.

So while steam certainly had a big partition of the FPS players as user base and certainly not a low popularity there too, the "pure" TBS fans were still seldom compared to the FPS market (of course this is only a guess, not a proved fact - but as long no one can prove the opposite ...). So yes, for Valve a new sub-segment of the market is opened, the "pure" TBS players. And while ETW, DoW2 surely already covered a part of the TBS players (or more general the strategy game player), you will surely agree that the Civilization series is the queen under the TBS games.

Off course there are FPS players who also like TBS games. But in general both sub-segment should have enough unique players. Perhaps now someone would also add the cliché, that FPS player are more likely to pirat a game while TBS players are more likely to buy a game, and therefore the TBS player is an interesting sub-segment. But like said, it´s only a cliché (at least i don´t know real data supporting this cliché).,

Steam has far more appeal than simply the FPS gamer. Yes, with Valve producing mostly FPS games this is where the initial user base came from, but now Steam is basically a portal for all games. Like I stated earlier, FM2010 is a Steamworks game and that is possibly further from a FPS than even Civ. I also use Steam for racing games, such as GTR Evolution and Grid. Whilst I can understand caution with regards to a new system, as a user of Steam I will say that it is no hassle at all. It doesn't need to be running constantly, it uses very little in terms of system resources and the in game chat is better than msn when it comes to chatting to friends whilst playing a game (as messages pop up in the corner without directly affecting play) due to the fact that there is no need to alt-tab out of a game. The sales on Steam are pretty good as well.

Give it a go with something else (download a demo or something) and see how you get on. Then post back with a true judgement.

 

[The_Coyote]

Steam has far more appeal than simply the FPS gamer. Yes, with Valve producing mostly FPS games this is where the initial user base came from, but now Steam is basically a portal for all games. Like I stated earlier, FM2010 is a Steamworks game and that is possibly further from a FPS than even Civ. I also use Steam for racing games, such as GTR Evolution and Grid. Whilst I can understand caution with regards to a new system, as a user of Steam I will say that it is no hassle at all. It doesn't need to be running constantly, it uses very little in terms of system resources and the in game chat is better than msn when it comes to chatting to friends whilst playing a game (as messages pop up in the corner without directly affecting play) due to the fact that there is no need to alt-tab out of a game. The sales on Steam are pretty good as well.

You missed the point, of course steam is also an online distributor - the question was who produced til now the popularity (and still open is how many games are really sold there in which genre - figures are not available). Any the newer steamworks games can´t be really seen as popularity gain - it´s an account gain - there is no real free decision beside buying / not buying the game at all.

I also questioned that steam covers the same amount of the market in TBS sub-segment like in the FPS sub-segment (you could also add single player orientated games vs mulitplayer games, most aspects of steamworks are community or mulitplayer features). While i assume in the FPS sub-segment steam has not a too low popularity, i also assume that in the TBS sub-segment the popularity is much much lower (i would also assume that stardock has a higher popularity in this sub-segement than Valve). But now with civ5 being a steamworks game the assumed remaining big part (accepting this step and buying the game) of the TBS players (assumption the most TBS players buy the game) will have to create an account to play the game. If they want it or not, if they like steam or not, they have to accept a contract the Valve. Because of this made assumption i concluded that with this step almost the entire TBS sub-segment of the pc games market (not covered so far throu other strategy steamworks games) will be opened for Valve (at least there is an inital business relation)

Your point with FM2010 simply shows that something similar already happens to another sub-segment of the market.

Give it a go with something else (download a demo or something) and see how you get on. Then post back with a true judgement.

Sorry but i´m really bothered by this "try out and ...." posts. And i can say to you that you successful failed to get the points why most persons (at least this is my feeling) here don´t want civ5 with steamworks. If you really believe how a test of the features of steam / steamworks could answer this question feel free to post how. But if you thought that i think that features of steam/steamworks can´t have any use for someone your were wrong - i only know that steams/steamworks has none or only quite limited use for others. Low enough to not outweigh the (potential - sometimes only guessed or feared) disadvantages of this deal, for some it´s enough to assume that even civ5 can´t produce enough use to outweigh this disadvantages.

 

[Commander Bello]

Like I stated earlier, FM2010 is a Steamworks game and that is possibly further from a FPS than even Civ.(...)

Give it a go with something else (download a demo or something) and see how you get on. Then post back with a true judgement.

Under the assumption that "FM 2010" stands for EA's Football Manager 2010, at least the German version is not a Steam Game.
At least I was not able to find any reference to Steam, Steamworks or any other online connection except for the one to EA's servers.

Furthermore, for someone who is not willing to boost Steam's "popularity" by increasing the number of accounts over there, the "advice" to create an account there for "checking" is quite moot.
There are persons, who dislike any restriction of their inherent rights (as constituted by custom and practise) to resell games, or even to give them as a present later on to friends and relatives.

For all these persons there is no point in "trying out" Steam, since the fact that reselling and/or giving a used game away as a present is prohibited under Steam's TOCs is undebated on either side.

 

[The_Hess]

FM2010 is Football Manager 2010, made by SI Games and published by SEGA.

If you want to really understand why Steamworks is necessary, the real answer is to protect the game from possible piracy. Note the words possible. Personally I feel that in many cases the facts on piracy are overhyped, but games studios need to make a profit, and they cannot do this if people simply take their work for free.

Personally, I like the way Steamworks is implemented in FM2010, where you don't NEED to use Steam. You have several options when you initially install the game.

1. From disk, register on Steam
2. Insert disk then download and register on Steam (pointless really)
3. Disk only, need disk in drive to play at all times

After ALL forms of installation you are given the option to patch the game. Also, you can only register each disk key once, whish is fair enough.

This effectively means that with my copy activated on Steam, my brother can now play using the disk on his computer. He cannot access the online funtions, but he can still patch the game. I think that this is the method most people here would like to see. He can still play PBEM games by e-mailing saves (in this way it is very similar to Civ) but some of the online functions (which neither of us use in all honesty) are not available.

For almost all forms of DRM these days, re-sale is less of an option due to limits on install etc. This has little effect on me as I still play older games from time to time, Death Match Classic, Half-Life etc, as well as being a regular C3C player. I understand that this is a concern for many people but unfourtunately this is the way PC gaming is headed.

 

[The_Coyote]

Personally, I like the way Steamworks is implemented in FM2010, where you don't NEED to use Steam. You have several options when you initially install the game.

1. From disk, register on Steam
2. Insert disk then download and register on Steam (pointless really)
3. Disk only, need disk in drive to play at all times

After ALL forms of installation you are given the option to patch the game. Also, you can only register each disk key once, whish is fair enough.

This effectively means that with my copy activated on Steam, my brother can now play using the disk on his computer. He cannot access the online funtions, but he can still patch the game. I think that this is the method most people here would like to see.

if my understanding of the above is correct, yes, this would be exactly the way i would like to see steamworks integrated in civ5, especially number 3 ist the option i would like - and still hope - to see

Edit: of course after reading this, my point above that FM2010 is similar was wrong, in this case a new account on steam was/is a user made decision

 

[The_Hess]

if my understanding of the above is correct, yes, this would be exactly the way i would like to see steamworks integrated in civ5, especially number 3 ist the option i would like - and still hope - to see

I cannot remember the exact wording (getting St. Mirren into Europe in 5 seasons probably destroyed any chance of ever remembering important facts) but you get the gist.

Personally, this is the way I would like it to be implemented as well, as it would let my brother play with the disk only option, whilst I play using Steam. Perhaps this is how it will be managed...

 

[Nick Danger]

Pffff, don't flatter yourself. Civ is big but not important enough on its own to make or break Steam. Valves own series, TW and CoD have done more for Steam's popularity.

You think a steam-exclusive Civ5 isn't a feather in valve's cap?

 

[Nick Danger]

...If you want to really understand why Steamworks is necessary, the real answer is to protect the game from possible piracy...

I respectfully disagree.

First, steamworks isn't necessary.

Second, DRM can be accomplished without steamworks. DRM is only 1 of steamwork's functions. DRM doesn't require steamworks running in the background when playing civ5. DRM doesn't require steamworks collecting information on us, or analyzing our game files for fragmentation, or our drivers, or the myriad of other things it does.

A better answer for why steamworks is 'necessary' was discussed a few posts ago.

Steamworks is only 'necessary' for Newell's goal of turning valve into an entertainment service, and for adding even more money hats to his and his employees wardrobes.

 

[FNP]

I have the CD-ROM version of CIV IV and BTS loaded on my PC.

Will I be able to download CIV V via Steam on the same PC or will Steam have DRM / compatibility issues with the CD-ROM version?

 

[diligence]

Oh and 2k if your not aware there is a steam hack which makes all the steam games they have pirated or not run offline with no need to go online ever. So the people that you are punishing are the honest people again by making them need to log in even if 1 time a week and update steam and whatever to continue to play the game. And if they not have an internet connection they can't even play full stop. People want to own the game they buy not just the right to play the game.

 

[Senethro]

I think your missing the point. The Civ 5 game will require you to have the DVD and logged into Steam to play, The offline mode will still mean you need to connect once a week.

On and 2k if your not aware there is a steam hack which makes all the steam games they have pirated or not run offline with no need to go online ever. So the people that you are punishing are the honest people again by making them need to log in even if 1 time a week and update steam and whatever to continue to play the game.

Nope, more like once every 3 weeks and won't require you to have the DVD even if you bought the DVD version.

 

[diligence]

Nope, more like once every 3 weeks and won't require you to have the DVD even if you bought the DVD version.

as I said you need the DVD and steam to play the game cause you need to register with both on installation. But what senethro says is once you have done that you wont need the DVD again.

The hack renders 2k attempt at copy protection null and void. So the only thing they are offering is no chance of resale second hand when its old and Civ 6 7 8 are out etcm hence why it would be nice to have the oppotunity to have a steam free single player option. I don't think there are any real CIV fans that won't come back to playing it after a short break from it. so resale value would be low as by the time they even think to sell it you have a sequal or it would be in the budget bin.

 

[bjbrains]

as I said you need the DVD and steam to play the game cause you need to register with both on installation. But what senethro says is once you have done that you wont need the DVD again.

The hack renders 2k attempt at copy protection null and void. So the only thing they are offering is no chance of resale second hand when its old and Civ 6 7 8 are out etc

These so called "steam hacks" generally are buggy, get shut down quickly, and can easily lead to you getting banned from steam. Yes even if you use a different 'account'.

 

[diligence]

so are most games without hacks. I am just pointing out that pirates will always have a hack regardless of what DRM is around, so the only people that get punished when servers are down are the legit people. This happened to Ubisoft in march.

You wouldnt get banned from steam cause you never need to have an account with them in the first place. The hacks only simulate the online connection and steam saying yes you can play the game, its not touching real steam in anyway.

 

[Senethro]

No, I don't think you even need the DVD. As long as you hold on to the serial number you can just install from Steam without the DVD.

 

[2K Greg]

No, I don't think you even need the DVD. As long as you hold on to the serial number you can just install from Steam without the DVD.

You don't even need the product key once you've registered it with your Steam account. All you need is your username and password.

Although it's advisable to hold on to your product key, as it is one method of providing proof of ownership of your account.

 

[Commander Bello]

These so called "steam hacks" generally are buggy, get shut down quickly, and can easily lead to you getting banned from steam. Yes even if you use a different 'account'.

What a pity.

You don't even need the product key once you've registered it with your Steam account. All you need is your username and password.

Although it's advisable to hold on to your product key, as it is one method of providing proof of ownership of your account.

Why should that ever be needed?

 

[Senethro]

Why should that ever be needed?

You forget the silly people who lost their Steam password, email and proof of purchase?

 

[Commander Bello]

You forget the silly people who lost their Steam password, email and proof of purchase?

You mean the guys who constantly are rolling with their seats over their DVDs?
Or do you mean the guys who are glad that no longer their water turtles will eat their DVDs?

 

[Kaveh]

I find this issue unnerving enough to get an account and start posting.
I hate to be forced into agreeing to the terms of service of any company, but we all get forced to accept them sometimes. But in the case of Steam, I can confidently say this will not be one of those times where I reluctantly agree. I will most definitely avoid doing business with Steam, and with Firaxis and 2K Games if I have to, because there are just too many issues that I am uncomfortable with. And I've been a hardcore CIV fan since back when I used to have it on floppy disks. I'm sure all of this has been written before one way or another, but I'm writing it again hoping that I'm wrong and 2K Greg will clarify things:

About the Steam Client: I hate unnecessary programs that run on my computer on a continuous basis; they tend to become a source of system instability and they end up hogging resources. I especially hate it when I cannot disable them without some negative consequences, as is the case with CIV V. I hate them even more when they require internet connections, because they become security vulnerabilities as well. And they reach the end of my hate spectrum when they send personally identifiable data into cyberspace, where it can end up anywhere. These are all separate issues with the Client, and if any of them are not true, please let me know.

Now about Valve: I hate it when I pay money, but do not get something tangible in return; with CIV V, I get a revocable LICENSE to play. I especially hate it when the intangible thing I get is at the mercy of somebody other than myself, and can be taken away anytime. I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that due to the way the terms of service are set up, I will lose the right to play (which is what I paid for) if someday I decide that I can no longer agree to the terms imposed by Valve. And my hate surpasses known limits when I get the feeling that the company in question is involved in practices that informed customers find questionable at best, and tries to get away with them anyway by integrating their service into something as nice as CIV. Such a set up is very dangerous, because if someday Valve decides to do something unacceptable, say, like sell the personal data it takes off my computer to advertisers, I will either have to accept the loss of my privacy, or accept the loss of the money I paid to get CIV.

As long as the above scenarios are even remotely possible, I will definitely not enter into any agreement with Steam; I will give up playing CIV if I have to.
So please, let me know if I'm wrong, because I love CIV almost as much as I hate draconian agreements.