Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[diligence]

I find this issue unnerving enough to get an account and start posting.
I hate to be forced into agreeing to the terms of service of any company, but we all get forced to accept them sometimes. But in the case of Steam, I can confidently say this will not be one of those times where I reluctantly agree. I will most definitely avoid doing business with Steam, and with Firaxis and 2K Games if I have to, because there are just too many issues that I am uncomfortable with. And I've been a hardcore CIV fan since back when I used to have it on floppy disks. I'm sure all of this has been written before one way or another, but I'm writing it again hoping that I'm wrong and 2K Greg will clarify things:

About the Steam Client: I hate unnecessary programs that run on my computer on a continuous basis; they tend to become a source of system instability and they end up hogging resources. I especially hate it when I cannot disable them without some negative consequences, as is the case with CIV V. I hate them even more when they require internet connections, because they become security vulnerabilities as well. And they reach the end of my hate spectrum when they send personally identifiable data into cyberspace, where it can end up anywhere. These are all separate issues with the Client, and if any of them are not true, please let me know.

Now about Valve: I hate it when I pay money, but do not get something tangible in return; with CIV V, I get a revocable LICENSE to play. I especially hate it when the intangible thing I get is at the mercy of somebody other than myself, and can be taken away anytime. I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that due to the way the terms of service are set up, I will lose the right to play (which is what I paid for) if someday I decide that I can no longer agree to the terms imposed by Valve. And my hate surpasses known limits when I get the feeling that the company in question is involved in practices that informed customers find questionable at best, and tries to get away with them anyway by integrating their service into something as nice as CIV. Such a set up is very dangerous, because if someday Valve decides to do something unacceptable, say, like sell the personal data it takes off my computer to advertisers, I will either have to accept the loss of my privacy, or accept the loss of the money I paid to get CIV.

As long as the above scenarios are even remotely possible, I will definitely not enter into any agreement with Steam; I will give up playing CIV if I have to.
So please, let me know if I'm wrong, because I love CIV almost as much as I hate draconian agreements.

What if some employee of Steam or Valve sell info on us, its not unheard off happening with other companies. Or someone hacks them. Facebook has a hideous reputation, even an app that harvested personnal details from friends of installer, and they didn't even need to have the app on their account for it to happen. If steam and valve want information they should pay for it and it be voluntary. What if they get sued because of privacy laws are broken and get shut down, all of us will be without are games even when we have the DVD in front of us. What will be next 2k that to play your game we have to make a month visit to your head office to show us the contents of our harddrive. Online anything should be for 1, updates, 2 online games, 3 people to about offline games needing to be online for no reason other than to punish the honest customer.

 

[Thyrwyn]

You need an email address and a password to open an account. What info are they going to sell?

 

[diligence]

You need an email address and a password to open an account. What info are they going to sell?

I thought further up someone was talking about it mining your info from your computer and noone could answer what info that is.

 

[Kaveh]

You need an email address and a password to open an account. What info are they going to sell?

If they run a client on my computer, they will have access to anything I have access to, including my personal files and folders, the set up of my system, and what I do with my computer.

And here are some excerpts from the Steam Subscriber Agreement found here, in an attempt to complement my previous post:

"Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account, but it may choose to do so."

"Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. As a Subscriber, you agree that Valve may amend the terms of this Agreement. If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after your receiving notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Steam Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at http://www.steampowered.com/. Your failure to cancel your Account thirty (30) days after receiving notification of an amended Agreement will mean that you accept all such amendments. If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription."

"Either you or Valve has the right to terminate or cancel your Account or a particular Subscription at any time. You understand and agree that the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve."

"Information on how to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription can be found at http://www.steampowered.com/. Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation. In the event that your Account or a particular subscription is terminated or canceled by you, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted. In the event that your Account or a particular Subscription is terminated or cancelled by Valve for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted."

Even if Valve promises not to abuse their access to my system now, there's no guarantee that they won't abuse it in the future. And in that case, "cancellation of [my] Account or a particular Subscription is [my] sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve."

After reading all of this again, I don't think there's anything that 2K Greg or anybody at Firaxis or 2K Games can tell me that can put my mind at ease (with the obvious exception that I can have the CHOICE of having CIV without Steam). My apologies if my posts don't exactly match the topic of the thread.

 

[diligence]

As I have read that, it reads to me that I can buy a game from 2k, play it as long as steam who I didn't buy the game from, cause i would buy a DVD from amazon or somewhere. Can cancel my account and stop me playing a game I bought under a sales contract with Amazon.
What could be classed as negative to other subscribers? MM playing for 48 hrs straight hogging up the bandwidth fraging people. so excessive gaming could be a reason they can use , after all ISP have in the past used that as a reason to throttle your line.
2k Who made and owns the copyright to the game you or steam, cause it seems to me you are letting someone else dictate your games usage.
PS I guess you are taking out the world editor then cause thats concidered cheating according to the words cheat next to the scoreboard if you used it and cheating is a grounds for termination.

 

[Senethro]

Why do so many people think Valve is in the business of illegally collecting data and not that of selling video games? How much more would they need to make from the data harvesting to make it worth risking the huge income they get from games? They would only need to be caught once to destroy their games business.

 

[diligence]

Why do so many people think Valve is in the business of illegally collecting data and not that of selling video games? How much more would they need to make from the data harvesting to make it worth risking the huge income they get from games? They would only need to be caught once to destroy their games business.

Facebook did it and they are still strong. They even let the BBC make a fake app to take personnel login, registration details like address etc from people and their friends attached to them. So mmmm well people have spent hard earned money on the games they would lose instantly if steam went under. IF 2K went under a DVD of their game could still be played.

 

[Senethro]

No ones interested in your Toku/Monty slash or your self insertion fanfics with Catherine. Valve can't sell that to anyone. Your dox are safe.

Facebook, a social networking site where all they have is information, should not be compared with a service provider like Valve which has a clear source of revenue.

 

[diligence]

The BBC app took peoples names and address, DOB etc. If you are buying stuff with steam you have to give them Credit details and an address.

Everyone says only need to register a username and password, no other details. Well if you are buying games via them and whats to say when your registering this game from DVD they not going to ask you various other information, address etc. I remember gamespy used to ask for age and details like that, thats why i never installed it after the first time not realising what it was at first.

2k have yet to provide any real purpose to use steam if you have a physical DVD, where if they want we can register with the DVD and then can be sent a nice no-cd install file so we not need steam or the DVD to play the game. Note i not play multiplayer and updates can easily be managed as links from their own site.

 

[ori]

Actually steam is, in addition to the business of selling games, also and exceedingly in the business of selling (mostly aggregate) information about computer game players and they mostly talk about the advantage of the data collection they are able to do and deliver to publishers currently.
Nothing wrong with that by itself, and there is no indication of illegal data harvesting - though since they do not actually disclose all data they collect speculation is easily possible
However they certainly are not only in the business of selling games anymore.

 

[diligence]

Actually steam is, in addition to the business of selling games, also and exceedingly in the business of selling (mostly aggregate) information about computer game players and they mostly talk about the advantage of the data collection they are able to do and deliver to publishers currently.
Nothing wrong with that by itself, and there is no indication of illegal data harvesting - though since they do not actually disclose all data they collect speculation is easily possible
However they certainly are not only in the business of selling games anymore.

my point exactly we don't know, and don't know who they sell it too, or who they then sell it too.

 

[Senethro]

Ah, yes, aggregate information, that well known scourge of privacy.

Would you care to offer an opinion on the relative importance of selling games vs. selling information about how a product was received to Valve?

you say speculation I say speculation

 

[Alki]

OMG! Valve will know how often I game and what kind of grahics card I use. A Bampot Bin Liner must be rubbing his hands in glee at the prospect of getting his hands on that juicy information.

 

[ori]

the ability to obtain information about their customers that is not otherwise available is one of the major selling points for steamworks - and thuse for acquiring more steamworks integrated software from other publishers. As such they are heavily marketing it currently and praising all the great information they can obtain and use for better services. I'd say from reading their current arguments that they regard it as a major part of their current and future business strategy. As for current relative importance: since no one knows anything about their finances, your guess is as good as mine

 

[The_J]

Ah, yes, aggregate information, that well known scourge of privacy.

Would you care to offer an opinion on the relative importance of selling games vs. selling information about how a product was received to Valve?

You're kidding here, right?
Some say, these are just how the times are, but they don't know all the information to judge about.
Data aggregation is only for marketing and advertisement, and you can make billions of profit with it.
Games are a minor bussiness compared to data aggregation.
You'll say "oooh, Valve, sure a big player", but no, the mass of all companies there is the problem.

 

[Senethro]

You're kidding here, right?
Some say, these are just how the times are, but they don't know all the information to judge about.
Data aggregation is only for marketing and advertisement, and you can make billions of profit with it.
Games are a minor bussiness compared to data aggregation.
You'll say "oooh, Valve, sure a big player", but no, the mass of all companies there is the problem.

At least one of us is misunderstanding the other.

Did you miss the part where I said "importance... to Valve?"

And I just plain don't get what the rest of your post is saying.

 

[Nick Danger]

<snip>

That you keep cherry-picking bits and pieces to present a false picture to make your arguments says a lot.

For example:

Ah, yes, aggregate information, that well known scourge of privacy.

...conveniently ignoring the "Individual Information" and "Personally Identifiable Information" valve admits to collecting, and that isn't defined so we don't know what it is. You know this because you linked to the page that says this in a recent post of yours yet you ignore it and only focus on the least objectionable part -- which is the fallacious Argument By Selective Reading.

Did you miss the part where I said "importance... to Valve?"

This is the fallacious Argument by Selective Observation -- trying to limit the topic to avoid relevant parts that hurt your case.

Regarding what info valve collects:

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html
Mostly covered there, other than that theres the voluntary hardware survey. Can anyone suggest something I've missed?

The same page you linked to states "Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user." [emphasis mine]

Again, you're ignoring facts known by you (that valve's definition of what they collect is open ended) and cherry-picking (in this case the innocuous voluntary survey) to present a false picture.

You're putting more effort into defending valve (often by presenting incomplete or downright false info) than even the the 2k folks are. It's obvious you take umbrage at folks wanting steam to be a choice, and not be forced upon us.

Why is that? Why is folks not wanting steam such a big deal to you? How's it any skin off your nose?

Most of the 'steam-should-be-a-choice' folks have no problem with folks who like steam and want it. Why are you so set on denying folks a choice?

 

[Senethro]

That you keep cherry-picking bits and pieces to present a false picture to make your arguments says a lot.

For example:
...conveniently ignoring the "Individual Information" and "Personally Identifiable Information" valve admits to collecting, and that isn't defined so we don't know what it is. You know this because you linked to the page that says this in a recent post of yours yet you ignore it and only focus on the least objectionable part -- which is the fallacious Argument By Selective Reading.

Hardly. Point out where they sell PII, or even share it with third parties who aren't also bound by Valve's privacy policy, presumably being sub-contracted to do something.

This is the fallacious Argument by Selective Observation -- trying to limit the topic to avoid relevant parts that hurt your case.

No. I said Valve's business was more about selling games than information. J said selling information was a bigger business than selling games without reference to Valve. Both statements can be correct but J's is irrelevant to this debate and I was trying to guide back on topic.

Regarding what info valve collects:
The same page you linked to states "Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user." [emphasis mine]

Again, you're ignoring facts known by you (that valve's definition of what they collect is open ended) and cherry-picking (in this case the innocuous voluntary survey) to present a false picture.

My apologies then, how about informing me what false picture I am painting? I've never denied they collect it, they have to as they require payment from you.

You're trying so hard to score points that you're not thinking your post through.

You're putting more effort into defending valve (often by presenting incomplete or downright false info) than even the the 2k folks are. It's obvious you take umbrage at folks wanting steam to be a choice, and not be forced upon us.

You might want to edit this out, calling someone a liar is an infractionable offense around here.

Why is that? Why is folks not wanting steam such a big deal to you? How's it any skin off your nose?
Most of the 'steam-should-be-a-choice' folks have no problem with folks who like steam and want it. Why are you so set on denying folks a choice?

Because you're campaigning to make the game worse by having Firaxis waste time recoding Steam's current functions.

 

[Hashishim]

hmmmm you know, even governmnets can sell the same information, and they more corrupt than companies so yeah to solve the issue, bare minimum information should be provided (user name; email; and country you originate) that is all. Banks can also sell information. Credit Card Companies too. They all in the same boat. But For someone to get ifnormation on anyone it is very easy, just need to go through the right channels and im not defending steam. But you guys making it into a very very big thing:/ instead of complaining and ranting and doing the service down, rather provide them with solutions where both parties or all parties concerned are happy. a Username and Email and country of origin doesnt really mess with your privacy. With rewgards to giving emails out and spam and the advertizing well that can be controlled on your email settings.

Bottom line if theres a will theres a way, if someone wants your information they will get it, some way or the other, anyways been reading the above, and jus tbeen laughing at the arguements. Like we having a courtcase and witnesses!! interesting really, but the important thing to remember is not blame the company but rather the pirates and people out there, (you can blame the company for charging the Earth since i feel they should find alternate ways to combat piracy and instead of fighting it, embrace it and adapt and use it to the companies advantage like TV Stations)

 

[diligence]

The simple answer is thoses that want Steam download it from steam. Thoses that want a DVD and more likely the single player brigade, buys the DVD which doesn't need steam. Should the DVD buyer want to muliplayer installs the multiplayer functionality and steam integration at the time, single players get non of that, and would have to use the DVD to play the game always and also to change to multiplayer mode if they wanted too.

Its not as if 2k havent got the skills to do it.