Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

agnarok, I don't believe there is any confirmation that civ5 will use VAC. I'm not even sure if this is the sort of game where it would work anyway. Until we have it confirmed, probably best if we don't assume it's in, eh?

Also, I'm not sure of the details of the anti-cheat system in civ4, but I'm pretty sure they managed just fine, and I don't recall there being any cheaters in multiplayer. Griefers maybe, but not cheaters.
 
This is simply unsubstantiated. The only reference in the subscriber agreement that references "data" is in the User Generated Content section - which is all data generated/volunteered by the user, not "taken" or "mined" from the user's machine.

It's substantiated; Data Mining "is the process of extracting patterns from data.
It is commonly used in a wide range of profiling practices, such as marketing, surveillance, fraud detection and scientific discovery.".
Steam provides a very good client-server platform to perform data-mining.

Nowhere in that agreement does Steam state "that they have full right to do whatever they want with all the data they collect about you."
Not with my words but in substance that is the meaning of chapter 7 that I quoted in my post.
It's explicitly lists set of data that may be collected and clearly states that the list may be larger than what explicitly stated ("may include, but is not limited to" that I quoted in bold).

It also states that "you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof", that in layman words means they can do whatever they want with that data.


Every "official" website/forum/chat has the same language. Every such agreement includes the "right to change" language (as does this very forum). The Steam agreement contains nothing that is unique, and nothing that is not common practice. The Gamespy Agreement for instance. They can change the agreement at will and claim the same rights regarding "user generated content". Same with Blizzard's.
Sure enough this type of wording in EULAs is becoming more and more common.
That doesn't make it less "dangerous" for the user or something that users should accept without any complaining about it.
Especially if a change in policy may lead to loose your ability to play a purchased game (as in my example).
... and here we are talking about our ablity to play Civilization, The Game .... serious stuff man! :)
 
agnarok, I don't believe there is any confirmation that civ5 will use VAC. I'm not even sure if this is the sort of game where it would work anyway. Until we have it confirmed, probably best if we don't assume it's in, eh?

Also, I'm not sure of the details of the anti-cheat system in civ4, but I'm pretty sure they managed just fine, and I don't recall there being any cheaters in multiplayer. Griefers maybe, but not cheaters.

Well VAC secured servers are something that Steam uses and privatly hosted and paid for servers can have VAC disabled. If Steam will be hosting servers for Civ5 which I can safely assume they will, I can also assume that Matchmaking will be utilised, but I'm sure also with other forms of playing multiplayer like Direct IP connections VAC won't be involved. But if Civ multiplayer is anything like say Left4Dead you and 18 player huge/marathon game is with 17 other random souls in a lobby, then how to host the game is chosen by the lobby leader, to either use a dedicated valve server, which will be VAC secured, or they can host it manually from thier PC.
It really depends how it all works, hopefully CIV will fully utilise the multiplayer possibilities of Steam, with online lobbies and matchmaking, and dedicated servers, if it plays like any other MultiPlayer Game on Steam, if you use Valves servers you will be using VAC secured servers.
 
It really depends how it all works, hopefully CIV will fully utilise the multiplayer possibilities of Steam, with online lobbies and matchmaking, and dedicated servers, if it plays like any other MultiPlayer Game on Steam, if you use Valves servers you will be using VAC secured servers.

Shack: Since you're using Steamworks, will you be including any matchmaking?

Dennis Shirk: We're not going to be shipping with matchmaking, but it's something that everybody started asking for. That is something we're going to be looking to include with our package in the future.

perhaps later (source)
 
But I thought that the main selling point for Steam was its MP capabilities. The capabilities that aren't being used . . .

The main selling point for Steam is everything, unless you are digging a bit deeper.
Then, out of a sudden, it will be something else and that "something" will be even more important.
 
@ 12agnar0k: Arrogant? unlike any of you Pro-Steam folks? lol, how prosaic. So your stating just because Anti-Steam individuals see no real benefits to installing Steam just to play Civ V that we're arrogant?
You may want to tone down your snobbery a bit there bro, peeps may think your ego is starting to show.

I mean, you do grasp the concept of personal choice, do you not? That an individual can actually prefer to choose something over the the option of just merely following along?

you are at least correct in aspect of that particular paragraph. "It actually does matter to me"
 
Apologies. Disadvantage of being a red-head. Quick temper. @ 12agnar0k; No insult intended, just your statement struck me the wrong way.
 
I would only play single player marathon games, the idea of a turn based multiplayer is not something I am interested in. So steam other than updating the game has no use what so ever. If I was to get Civ 5 it would be a retail box version. I had steam before and the times I have tried to use it I have had a poor service, slow downloads, choppy downloads with longer waiting periods than download periods. So to me steam is just putting me off getting the game. Not to mention you can't opt out of them taking data, selling it and so on.

I wonder how many people actually play multiplayer Civ 4 cause I really not see how anyone would stay interested in the game if they have to wait a day per turn.
 
A) the only PII they collect is voluntary...
Define 'voluntary'.

It can mean anything from simply by installing steam (which is 'voluntary') to there being a pop-up that says 'Warning PII request, you may opt-out'.

We don't know how they define 'voluntary'. Voluntary doesn't necessarily mean that we'll know when/what PII is collected.

Have you been following the BP oil spill? Did you catch where the BP representative assured the congressional committee that said "BP will pay all necessary cleanup costs and all legitimate claims for other losses and damages caused by the spill."

That sounds great, until one ponders the word 'legitimate' and realizes how much 'wiggle-room' it provides.

Same with valve's 'voluntary'.

..B) is only for certain products and online sites...
If you're saying that valve only collects PII only for certain products and online sites, I think you're wrong (unless the 'certain products' encompasses all steam products present and future -- open-ended and thus it's legalese that has no real meaning). The quote says:
"...for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site."
Valve collects PII for other purposes too.

C) will only be used to the extent necessary to provide those services...
More lawyerese that means nothing, as 'extent necessary' can be defined in any way they wish.

Valve's privacy statement is carefully crafted legalese designed to say as little of substance as possible while giving the appearance of the opposite. You seem to be interpreting them in the most favorable light. I tend to look at them from a lawyer's perspective and see loopholes one can drive an oil tanker thru.

So, they don't "secretly" collect PII...
First: You base this on the quote:
"If an associate of Valve is collecting such personally identifiable information within one of our products or online sites, Valve will make users aware of this at the time the information is gathered."

Note that refers to 'associates'. There is also 'third parties' and valve -- that's 3 entities. For 'associates' they say they make users aware of PII collection at the time it's collected -- what about PII collected for valve and 'third parties'?

Prudence dictates that if it's not specifically mentioned (and I can't find this specifically mentioned -- can you?) then it doesn't exist/apply/etc. because that's how legalese works.

Second, you have the words transposed -- instead of 'secretly collect PII' the salinet point is 'collect secret PII'. We know they collect PII, we just don't know what PII they collect.

As long as we're looking at all the quotes from the privacy policy here's one you missed:
"Valve's privacy policy does not extend to associates of Valve."

Here's a question for you -- how do 'third parties' (about who they state: "In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this privacy policy.") differ from 'associates' (who aren't bound by valve's privacy policy)?

Voluntary PII collected by an associate:...
V's privacy statement says that, in regards to 'associates', we'll be informed when they ask for PII and we'll have a chance to opt-out and they're not bound by v's privacy policy. Does it say anywhere what PII is collected? They give an example (product registration data for Half-Life) but they don't mention identifying exactly what PII is collected.

You're obviously a smart guy. It can't have escaped you that we don't know:
-what PII is being collected
-who it's shared with
-what purposes its being put to

It also can't have escaped you that collating all the aggregate, individual, and PII -- including IP address and times of day connected (which together are PII as many RIAA-sued music pirates have discovered) -- can paint a pretty thorough picture of a person. Add in the inevitable tie-ins with folks like facebook (a la bioware's 'real id' and their upcoming facebook-battle.net/real id tie-in), as valve is doubtlessly moving towards something similar, and a reasonable person can have concerns.

What we're told in the various valve pages is legalese designed to be open-ended such that they can define/change things pretty much as they like, at any time. We're only given the most innocuous examples (such as email and screen names for PII).

If all this is so innocuous then why haven't they answered the simple questions I listed above -- if not on valve's page before all this then now after we've asked 2k about this? Are the answers corporate secrets? Do they think they'll drive away valve users if we know the answers? Are they too busy making money hats out of their profits?

Anyhoo, thanks for the honest and accurate and well-reasoned reply!
:beer:
 
Apologies. Disadvantage of being a red-head. Quick temper. @ 12agnar0k; No insult intended, just your statement struck me the wrong way.
No worries, I do have an ego, Also a god complex, but I'm not a snob, to be a snob you would need to be wealthy and well spoken, and I am niether :P. I may very well be a little arrogant, I think its one of my more appealing features, atleast to me.

I'm not saying all Anti-Steam views are that of arrogance, infact some members are reasonable and open to different views, I for example like Steam but I have listend and read every complaint without bias, I accept that Steam does have some disadvantages for Consumers and thier have been valid concerns raised with different issues related to Steam. However thier are advantages and benefits to Steam and if people deny the existence of these then this is arrogance by defenition and my remark was aimed at them.

The majority of users on these forumns are decent enough folk though.
 
You not only have to look at it, you have to create and maintain a user account with it. You cannot uninstall the steam store without losing access to your games. You MUST have an active account with the steam store, in order to play even your brick and mortar purchased game. You can't even access your game until steam has been successfully loaded and completed it's pre-game tasks.

With Stardock::Impulse, you don't even have to create a user account at their store. You can use an existing account from Facebook, Twitter, and others. Then, after a one-time validation, you can completly uninstall Impulse and still play your games. You click your game icon and your in. No muss no fuss. Never have to deal with the store again. Gamer outright owns the games they purchased. You even have the right to sell the games you buy on Impulse (with publisher/developer getting their proper cut).

Stardock::Reactor does everything that Steamworks does. But Stardock does not force exclusive distribution deals, does not require install of their store, does not run a client over top of your game, and does not collect and send consumption data, +. steam does these things to force dominance in the digital market, and to monetize on its ability to collect user consumption data. I won't support the steam model. My conviction has been tested over my love for Civ. I'm pretty much a one-game gamer. Stardocks upcoming Elemental replaces Civ.

I quoted you from the "2k rep has 3 reps thread", as I said, that was not a Steam thread, I will however comment on the post here.

What you are doing is mistaking the Steam Store with the Steam Application, they are not the same thing, the Steam store is merely a part of your Steam Application, the four sections as it were to the Steam App are Store/Library/News/Community, you can pick and choose what you use from the Application, personally I use the store and the games library only, you may have no interest in buying from Steam and use the Library only, this is your choice and under Steam settings you can choose which Steam section you want to display when loading the Steam application, by default it is the store but you can change this to one of the following Library/News/Friends/Community/Servers, I personally want to access the Library each time I load up the Steam window so I have it set to Library.
Another Setting feature is this check box, "Notify me (with steam instant messages) about additions or changes to my games, new releases, upcoming releases." This is basically an advert after you exit a game on Steam about upcoming sales or new releases or updates to current games, and you can turn these off.

So what you are mistaken in thinking is that you need to sign up to this store part of the Steam app, you do not. You need to have a login account for the Steam Application, but this is not the store, infact, you may at your discretion completely ignore the fact that the Steam Store is included in the Application.

Hopefully I have clarified this for you. While you do indeed need a Steam account and to be logged into it (even in Offline mode) to play your games, this isn't the Steam Store. They are not forcing you to use the store or even look at it. You would be missing out on some possibly attractive deals by ignoring it, but thats your preogative.
 
Well VAC secured servers are something that Steam uses and privatly hosted and paid for servers can have VAC disabled. If Steam will be hosting servers for Civ5 which I can safely assume they will, I can also assume that Matchmaking will be utilised, but I'm sure also with other forms of playing multiplayer like Direct IP connections VAC won't be involved. But if Civ multiplayer is anything like say Left4Dead you and 18 player huge/marathon game is with 17 other random souls in a lobby, then how to host the game is chosen by the lobby leader, to either use a dedicated valve server, which will be VAC secured, or they can host it manually from thier PC.
It really depends how it all works, hopefully CIV will fully utilise the multiplayer possibilities of Steam, with online lobbies and matchmaking, and dedicated servers, if it plays like any other MultiPlayer Game on Steam, if you use Valves servers you will be using VAC secured servers.

Have they confirmed match making as well? I seem to recall there being mention that even match making won't be working at release, and I'm still a bit unsure on what match making means exactly. When I hear "match making" I think of putting players together of similar rank or skill. But I think it's more commonly used as meaning providing a hub where you can see and choose servers for MP.

You can make lots of "IF" assumptions and come to the conclusion that they will use VAC, but as I said we don't know yet whether VAC will be included and I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that we don't go around saying it like it's fact. I mean, you were trying to get people to be politically correct about "force". ;)

And while I get your point, I still found this little quote amusing:
"But if Civ multiplayer is anything like say Left4Dead ...":eek::eek: :mischief:

Do you have examples of games comparable to civ (e.g. any turn based game) that use VAC servers?

EDIT... Sorry I just noticed some others already mentioned the non-inclusion of match making at release.
 
I believe someone quoted 2k/Frix saying that Matchmaking won't be in release but it will come later via patch, match making basically means you click "play now" on the multiplayer and it throws you into a random game of your specifications with random players, basically it matches players to play in a match together.
However without this included I'm sure their will still be Steam dedicated servers running games and online lobbies and what not, I'm not sure why they wouldnt include these things, but you never know, the only MP option we may get could be IP direct connect lol, I guess we need to wait for more info to come out on multiplayer or indeed see for ourselfs when it comes out.
All Steam dedicated servers use VAC, player brought servers have an option, it all depends really how multiplayer will work in Civ.

My reference to LFD is simple. Yes the games are nothing alike but it is the Lobby system in LFD that I am refferring too, when you go on multiplayer you have a list of lobbies or search for particular types of lobby and then join one where you and the other up to 17 players can chat in the lobby of your game before starting it up so you can decide what kind of game to play. What I want to see is depth from Civ's multiplayer in choosing games, as much as in LFD for example.
 
I think this is a valid point - if you guys feel like you aren't involved enough in the conversation, let me or Greg know and we'll work on that for you. I know we're already working on getting Q&As and articles together for some of the topics people have mentioned, but they aren't live yet - but if there's something in particular you want to see, speak up so we don't miss it.

Thanks Elizabeth. This post is me speaking up. :) (I am putting this reply in the Steamworks FAQ thread instead as it is more on topic for that thread.)

Numbering is only in hope to make it easier to read or reply to...

Please, for any questions you won't or can't answer, can you please give a very brief reason why? For example.

"Can't say", "Don't know", "Undecided", "in progress" etc.

1. Is there a timeline or timeframe for the release of the MP features that are not beling included at release? Namely hotseat, PBEM and pitboss services, as well as match making. For example, should we expect to wait one month, six months, one year, for such features? While I might appear picky about the missed deadline with the Steam FAQ, it matters a lot less to me than the timeline on which these other important multiplayer features are released. My biggest fear is that due to unforeseen circumstances, development of these "extras" gets shelved indefinitely.

2. In relation to automatic patching (which is one of steamworks' advertised features) and modding:
There are a number of questions that can be asked on this topic. When a patch for the official game gets released, how will the compatibility of mods be handled? Even if you can't answer any specifics on this sort of thing, can you give any reassurance that this issue is actually high on the priorities list?
An example of how problems with patches breaking mods could be solved is to allow there to be multiple installs of the game, like was possible with civ4.
Once steam automatically updates a game, it's my understanding that usually it's impossible to go back to an earlier patch version. This could prevent someone from playing their favourite mod if that mod was broken by the patch. For example, if the game at release is version 1.0, one month later we get v1.1 and someone makes a mod with that version, and then one month later we get v1.2, that user's game gets automatically updated to v1.2 but seeing the mod broken the user wants to revert to patch v1.1, is there any way that player can go back to 1.1? Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that it's impossible, either because the only available patch any more is 1.2, or that upon re-installing the game you can only get version 1.0 or if at time of activation of the game the update is forced on the user (meaning unavoidable if wanting to play the game) taking him/her to patch version 1.2. Those were some long and awkward sentences, but I'm sure you catch my drift.
This issue of mod compatibility and automatic patching is probably the highest on the minds of many modders out there. Many of them would be happy to know the issue is at least acknowledged by Firaxis and 2K and that they are taking measures to avoid it being a problem. We've had no such word yet I don't think apart from the standard marketing lines like "unprecendented modding capabilities".

An answer along the lines of "you can disable automatic patching" is absolutely nowhere near sufficient because if one only learns that after finding a broken mod after a patch, then it's useless advice. Also "you can avoid patches by leaving steam in offline mode" is also not sufficient because it's unreasonable (I'd even say extremely unreasonable) to expect people to go to lengths of keeping steam in an offline state or disabling their internet just to maintain the compatibility of one of their mods. It would be one of the most user-unfriendly soltuions I have ever seen for a game.

3. Relates to DLC. Many people want to simply know whether Babylon will be available later as DLC. Others want to know whether there are plans for DLC. I appreciate there are probably reasons this question will be left unanswered. Dennis Shirk has already accidentally hinted at there being DLC in the future by responding to a question about it with an awkward "my lips are sealed". I hope I'm not getting him in trouble but his comment seems to give a good indication that there are plans for DLC. I'd expect an answer to this question being alone the lines of "can't say" but it's your call.

4. A question of minor importance from my point of view, but is there any intention to user VAC-secured servers for civ5 multiplayer games? Dennis Shirk has been quoted as saying something along the lines of "we think all of steamworks' features are great". Am I taking it too literally if I take the statements of Shirk as indicating that Valve Anti-Cheat is one such service that Firaxis are approaching with enthusiasm and implementing?
This question will be particularly important to some people. An example would be people who are already VAC-banned on their steam account. Such people, knowing that VAC will be used in civ5, could make the informed decision of using a different account for civ5.

If you are going to use VAC, will their be both VAC secured and unsecured servers?

5. Concerns about what information Valve/Steam collects as mentioned in the Steam Subscriber Agreement. This is another concern that varies greatly in importance from member to member. Most of the people repeatedly asking for this sort of information understand/accept that some data collection is part of the deal when you buy the game and sign up to the steam account, but they are asking to be informed of what information it is that is collected about them. Dodging these questions or not being upfront about them can lead to suspicions that the data being collected is of an objectionable nature (hope that's the right way to word it). As an example, it's known that in google mail they can analyse your emails so that they can target appropriate advertising at you but that is acceptable to most people using the service because they are getting something valuable in return (a free email service with lots of storage space). It would be nice to know what sort of information is collected by playing civ5 on steam and what purpose that information is put to. If you simply want to use collected information to help make future decisions about products that's fine - just let us know. If you want to use the information for other third parties who ask, then that would probably not be fine to a lot of people and it would be reasonable to let them know before they get into a contractual agreement where they have no option of a refund.
I'm hoping that some info on this issue is presented in the upcoming Steam FAQ because if it isn't you will likely see endless accusations of avoiding the questions. Since Firaxis and 2K have entered into an agreement with Valve in adopting Steamworks, it is reasonable to expect 2K to understand the implications to gamers including how the privacy of their information is handled. Directing us to Valve's SSA or privacy policy are inappropriate so please don't assume that we'd be happy with such a dodge.
With questions about this issue left forever unanswered, you will leave yourselves open to accusations of using the data for nefarious purposes or if not, letting Steam/Valve use it for nefarious purposes. It's up to you (plural you) what to tell us, but keep in mind that so far when questions go unanswered it has been assumed there is a reason for it.

An acknowledgement that these questions have been read and received will be much appreciated. :) Thanks, PoM
 
4. A question of minor importance from my point of view, but is there any intention to user VAC-secured servers for civ5 multiplayer games? Dennis Shirk has been quoted as saying something along the lines of "we think all of steamworks' features are great". Am I taking it too literally if I take the statements of Shirk as indicating that Valve Anti-Cheat is one such service that Firaxis are approaching with enthusiasm and implementing?
This question will be particularly important to some people. An example would be people who are already VAC-banned on their steam account. Such people, knowing that VAC will be used in civ5, could make the informed decision of using a different account for civ5.

If you are going to use VAC, will their be both VAC secured and unsecured servers?

I can answer part of this.

VAC bans are for game engine, so if you cheat in MW2 and VAC catch you, you wont be able to use only VAC secured servers using that game engine. It wont affect any other VAC secured game which is based on different game engine. So you will still be able to use VAC servers for other games like L4D, CSS, DoDs etc.
 
I'm with PoM on this, I would really like to know alot of the details of multiplayer. So far all we have is Dennis and others stating that the game will ship with "basic MP" functions(but with no explanation of what this means) and that for now there will be no Steam matchmaking, meaning that there is just no console-like auto match making. Personally I'm no fan of this anyway, I prefer to manually advertise my games and invite those that look like mature players etc.

We also know that the stuff beyond basic MP will be produced somethime after release, meaning standard stuff like Pitboss, PBEM and Hotseat are not shipping with the game. Unfortunately as PoM has stated there is not even a vague timeline for this either.

I'm not sure how this talk of Steam VAC and Steam servers works with a p2p game that doesn't use servers, the host being nothing more than "player 0" that sets the game settings. Does anyone have experince with any other Steamworks powered p2p games?

I sure would like to know more about the lobby, who is powering it, a screenshot would be nice too. Are we getting all the same advanced options as SP games? And all the options that we are used to in Civ3 and Civ4?

How is this great mod centre and mod loading going to work with MP? We really do not want to repeat the mod loading system in Civ4 though I do want the file security/anticheating that civ4 had.

And can a host disable DLC in MP games so that we have a equal playing field?

CS
 
I can answer part of this.

VAC bans are for game engine, so if you cheat in MW2 and VAC catch you, you wont be able to use only VAC secured servers using that game engine. It wont affect any other VAC secured game which is based on different game engine. So you will still be able to use VAC servers for other games like L4D, CSS, DoDs etc.

In that case, my follow up question would be what engine does civ5 use and what other games share that engine? I know everyone likes to crucify cheaters when they are found out, but I consider any system to have flaws and that claims of "no false positives" to be no guarantee, and so I like to be informed of what other games could be compromised if I was targeted by VAC. Because I mess with game files with modding, VAC is something that does concern me.
 
I don't think that info has been released although there is unconfirmed speculation that it might be the UT3 engine.

CS
 
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