Civilization 5

Don't you think the units represent the emphasis of the different troops? Like, just because you have a horsemen with a pike, it doesn't mean all the guys in the unit uses pikes, or that they can't walk by feet. The game got really weird if you see the units as represented by the graphic or the name (axemen or grenadiers, for example).

They can go in feet, but with a pike they are of no use to assault walls.

I don't think units represent emphasis, because if it were the case, horse units would have a movement of 1, which is not the case.
 
IMO, it's best just to simplify it and have the units represented by one unit type. If you're going to attempt to imagine units as being on a regimental/divisional scale, battle mechanics and strength become awfully warped and distorted, without some serious changes.
 
IMO, it's best just to simplify it and have the units represented by one unit type. If you're going to attempt to imagine units as being on a regimental/divisional scale, battle mechanics and strength become awfully warped and distorted, without some serious changes.

Yeah, the most I'd like to see would be a true "stack attack", so it's not just one v one, but many v many. So maybe I assault a square with 3 archers, 2 catapults, 1 spearman, 2 axemen, and 2 swordsmen, and they fight against 4 defending archers, 1 axeman, and 1 spearman, then everyone battles. If anyone's ever played Castles II, I wouldn't mind seeing a sort of combat like that. I don't even need as much control over it, but that sort of combined arms battle would be good, especially if you have some withdraw options (since as much fun as it is to build up defenses in a city, being allowed to run away when a horde of keshiks come at you should still be an option).
 
Yeah, the most I'd like to see would be a true "stack attack", so it's not just one v one, but many v many. So maybe I assault a square with 3 archers, 2 catapults, 1 spearman, 2 axemen, and 2 swordsmen, and they fight against 4 defending archers, 1 axeman, and 1 spearman, then everyone battles. If anyone's ever played Castles II, I wouldn't mind seeing a sort of combat like that. I don't even need as much control over it, but that sort of combined arms battle would be good, especially if you have some withdraw options (since as much fun as it is to build up defenses in a city, being allowed to run away when a horde of keshiks come at you should still be an option).

i've long thought that it's ridiculous that it takes centuries for a city to develop a single unit, and i think that it detracts from the overall vision of the game, which is the development and advancement of a civilization through time. however, the current format of the game does make it simple to implement some form of military battle in a turn-based game, even if it doesn't really fit into the paradigm.

i agree with you that the simple rock-paper-scissors units are overly simplistic, and not akin to any sort of actual army strategy. you should be able to customize the types of armies that you want to create, and then set them loose. for instance, if you have three cannon, two cavalry, and four riflemen in your army, that should kick the crap out of another army with eight cannon and two riflemen, even though the latter has a far superior number in terms of firepower (the cavalry will bust through the riflemen and topple the cannon).

what i've argued for on this forum before is this:

1. your cities develop technologies, which your armies can use. there are lots of micro technologies that are progressively more costly to develop, with some civilizations getting boosts on the development of those technologies. for instance, the americans might have an edge on the mass production of infantry, while the germans will be able to develop awesome tanks. it's not that the americans couldn't develop this technology, but it'd be much more expensive.

2. decouple weaponry from an individual city developing it. a single city shouldn't spend twelve centuries developing an archer. the archer can be called up with weapons as dictated by how much military technology you've developed, at a cost of population and gold. you should be able to return the population once you're done with the unit. seeing as how 50% of your population is male, you should be able to use up to 50% of your population for war purposes, or some fraction thereof, based on your population's demographics. if the war lasts a turn or two, that's great; you shouldn't be penalized too much in terms of city growth, except for the turns that the population was active, and excluding the percentage of the army that was killed. however, a longer campaign should be costly in terms of city/population growth, and should take a growing toll on gold, except later in the game, perhaps after the development of a standing army.

3. battles that last centuries should cripple a civilization. think dark and middle ages. the civilization should become stagnant, with no new technology development during these battles. however, civilizations that successfully sweep a continent should be rewarded (think, genghis khan).

4. individual unit types should be somewhat worthless. if you've invested all of your military technology endeavors to max out your archers, and your army consists of only archers, that army should get mowed down, plain and simple (unless you're battling another army of archers). armies should be a mixture of cavalry, artillery, and infantry. you should be able to determine the mixture, and the development of each of those technologies.

5. a catapult should NEVER defeat a tank unit. EVER. old technology should be worthless against new technology. a SEAL team should defeat the best cavalry every time. if your civilization isn't keeping up with the joneses, your civilization should go away. quickly.
 
you should have to balance production versus production capacity. to do that, you should be able to create, say, multiple markets, factories, and temples per city. these would be amenable to destruction in a siege. but, perhaps more importantly, if you develop, say, 10 temples and 1 market in a city, then you'd cripple your economy. if you have a city population of one million and you have only a single temple, people should get pissed and revolt. hence, you have to maintain a balance.

on the other hand, if you create too many markets, factories, etc., then you overheat your economy, and a depression ensues. that is, unless you're a theocracy, in which case your temples are tied to your economy.

your economy should also be tied to your neighbors', especially later in the game. if you go to war with your neighbors, your economy should take a big hit. if you want to go to war, you should have to borrow, but it should cause a mild depression after the war. later in the game, wars should be painful to execute, just like in the real world. if you're going to war, you better win big.

which leads to politics. a large, powerful neighbor should be able to exact economic, military, and diplomatic demands on their neighbors, with the threat of economic sanctions and war. for instance, if you're germany living next to russia, and they decide that they don't like your alliance with another nation, they should be able to create a trade embargo that's painful. they should also be able to exert some degree of control over your policies.

which leads to winning the game. in the 20th century, the united states clearly won. in the 21st century, likely china and/or india will be seen as the winners. in the 18th century, the united kingdom could be considered the big winners of that century. while an all-out domination victory would be awesome, as time progresses, it's increasingly impossible to execute in the real world. it's highly unlikely that chinese troops will ever end up occupying the streets of berlin. so how do you win?

1. you survive. the game should make survival much more difficult, as you can get assimilated or controlled by other civilizations. a technological misstep, or improper army sizing should effectively end your civilization, depending on your neighbors.

2. you implement a massive effort to control other civilizations. if your economic fortunes are intertwined with your neighbors', and they can't make a move without bringing down their economy, that's a huge win. think japan in the modern era. it has no military, but it's the world's 3rd or 4th largest economy (depending on whether you count the european union as a single economy). if japan stopped producing, it'd cripple some economies. in the game, such a civilization could win at least a partial economic victory, though they don't have the massive clout to pull off what i'd consider a win in civilization.

another way to effect a victory in this manner would be to exert cultural control over your neighbors. create parcels of culture. nike, coca cola, levi's, music, and movies. one of these alone shouldn't be enough to be considered a win. however, a cultural win combined with an economic one could potentially be a win.

3. you pull a stalin or hitler, only actually win. if you control certain regions of the world (the underlying military philosophy used by the germans, to limited success, because it discounted aerial power), then you should win. for instance, stalin controlled a significant portion of the world after world war 2, but in civilization, i'd still consider his civilization as losing to the americans, by virtue of the u.s.'s cultural and economic prowess.

4. i like the technology victory option, but getting out of the solar system shouldn't be the ultimate goal. other countries should have to rely on your technological advancement for theirs, and the more they adopt your technology, the more points you get here. for instance, a country like france may not like having to adopt the internet, because it erodes their cultural hegemony, but they should have no choice.

in summary, what i'm arguing for isn't a single type of victory. victory shouldn't be that easy. it should take a preponderance of cultural, diplomatic, technological, and military superiority to count as a win. unless, of course, you pull a stalin and actually pull it off.
 
I didn't read everything you wrote, but I get the impression that you want more economic aspects to the game. I do also. But just be wary of the fact that introducing many complex economic concepts into the game (which may be necessary for some of what you suggested, such as your economy being linked to your neighbour's) could be detrimental to the playability of the game. It could be pretty boring playing a game in which you had to engage in in-depth economic policy decisions in order to be successful. Built-in economic factors simplified to be playable and realistic would be brilliant, but that would be hard to program, I'm guessing.
 
I didn't read everything you wrote, but I get the impression that you want more economic aspects to the game. I do also. But just be wary of the fact that introducing many complex economic concepts into the game (which may be necessary for some of what you suggested, such as your economy being linked to your neighbour's) could be detrimental to the playability of the game. It could be pretty boring playing a game in which you had to engage in in-depth economic policy decisions in order to be successful. Built-in economic factors simplified to be playable and realistic would be brilliant, but that would be hard to program, I'm guessing.

oh yeah. i'm throwing concepts out there, but i don't know which ones would work, and which ones would either over-complexify the game, or make it completely unwinnable (read: unplayable).

however, the cool thing about complexity is that the strategies then take a more interesting turn, and there may not necessarily be a tried-and-true approach to winning civ. by adding complexity, it could open up all sorts of new and interesting strategies, some of which work in some instances but not others, and so on.

i do stand by the conviction that the military campaigns leave a lot to be desired. the key issues are:

- it just can't take centuries to produce an archer, or for an archer to traverse a hundred miles.
- rock-paper-scissors isn't akin to the way that armies are really built, or operate. armies need to be an amalgamation of different units with different strengths.
- antiquated military units should never defeat modern ones.
and,
- armies shouldn't tax a city's production; it should hit the population, and deplete the treasury.

i'd be a happy camper if these aspects of the game were fixed. the other things i suggested are niceties, to give the game some depth, so that it's more like playing chess, only with infinitely more variety.
 
perhaps a central server could adjust the rules, based on feedback from played games. for instance, perhaps the chinese tend to win every game, with a tried-and-true strategy. that's great, but the game shouldn't be won like that. a player should have to adjust their strategy based on who they're playing, the environment and available resources, and so forth.

fine. the server then nerfs some aspect of the chinese civilization, or strengthens others. and how to do that? i'm thinking that they could use a neural network like mahout to analyze the game plays, and determine the factors that caused the civilization to win. of course it could be a facet of the civilization that gets picked most (for instance, maybe people in the u.s. play the americans more often than other civilizations), but that could be factored out. it's done in other games, such as WOW, and galaxies. i don't know what the underlying technology is that they use to make those determinations (user feedback, i'm guessing), but it's done.

also, i wouldn't mind seeing the game played from within a browser. while fancy graphics are great, i actually like the playability of the iphone version, except the movement. sure, the graphics suck, but i don't care so much about whether a pretty pyramid appears when i build it. in fact, i'd like to be able to play against people on a xbox from my iphone. in other words, the game engine should stand on its own, with the ui dictated by the device that it runs on.

and, i think it'd be cool if the game could be scripted, so that it plays a certain way, so that you don't even have to manually play it. you set up your strategy, and then let it play while you're working, going to school, sleeping, or what not. this is certainly advanced, but then the game could be used for modeling. in fact, it'd be cool to hadoop up a bunch of instances, and look for patterns that emerge.

any thoughts?
 
I like the idea of Cannon-Cavalry-Infantry combined armies. There might also be critical importance of great generals who would increase your odds with military strategies (think of Caesar or Napoleon for example).

Maybe you could have the exact number of your army recruits like 108 cannonman, 3054 Horseman, and 5043 rifleman Or just 2 regiments of cannons, 3 brigates of Horsemen and 4 brigates of Riflemen. The larger your army the more expensive and more firepower. Of course you'd need cities where to draft your men. Maybe you could decide your brigate / army relatively (Cannon-Horse-Infantry) consistence.
 
I feel sure that this is a myth that the Zulus put out about the victory. They would have had some firearms and used them in battle. Then again, Dumanios there is the myth of technology giving invincibility. In Somalia, the UN was defeated by an enemy armed with very little high-technology. In Iraq we are seeing an insurgency that is defeating well-trained and equipped US troops. Therefore, I think whether an ancient unit would be able to defeat a modern unit would depend in real-life on the attitude and training of the units in question. This is why I like the idea of having morale and disipline as things that can be modified by a great general. I also think that a military academy should be able to give you options for these things. Morale and Disipline are learned after all at military academies. Also it should be able after a certain number of engagements and a level of experience earned automatically. The real world teaches us that numerous times, technology is no real substitute for disipline and morale. A plan that is not well thought out will lead to results like what is happening in Iraq. The US is afraid to really go after the insurgents in its rules of engagement and the insurgents know it. This is what defeated the British at Isandlwanaland, and has defeated numerous armies since, including the Soviets in Afghanistan.

If we are talking about highly armoured tanks, then yes it should not happen that calvary can defeat tanks. However if we are talking about light-armoured cars, then it becomes more likely that a lucky shot from an archer with a flaming arrow can hit the fuel-tanks. Infantry are highly vulnerable on places such as the face to getting hit by arrrows. Also the terrain may make a difference for such an ambush. A forest is a place where a modern unit may be able to be ambushed by an ancient unit quite easily. Also cities provide difficulties for units such as tanks. Tanks can't elevate their guns high enough to really be effective for clearing out high-buildings. That is why in cities, tanks need infantry to be effective. The infantry has to protect the tanks from anti-tank missiles and grenades...
 
If we are talking about highly armoured tanks, then yes it should not happen that calvary can defeat tanks.
Duh.
However if we are talking about light-armoured cars, then it becomes more likely that a lucky shot from an archer with a flaming arrow can hit the fuel-tanks.
Tanks were origionally designed to be protected from machine guns and shrapnel, why would the fuel tanks be put where it can be pierced by an arrow?
Infantry are highly vulnerable on places such as the face to getting hit by arrrows.
How did we get from tanks to infantry?
Also the terrain may make a difference for such an ambush. A forest is a place where a modern unit may be able to be ambushed by an ancient unit quite easily.
Yes, quite easily. But they do not have the equipment to destroy a tank, and most tanks do have machine guns too.
Tanks can't elevate their guns high enough to really be effective for clearing out high-buildings.
It wouldn't do much good anyway, tank guns aren't designed to cover wide areas at short range anyway.
That is why in cities, tanks need infantry to be effective. The infantry has to protect the tanks from anti-tank missiles and grenades...
Tanks need infantry in cities not because they can't reach the enemy firing at them, but because they can't see the enemy until it's too late. This is why it is a very bad idea to use tanks in a city.
 
I think it's fair enough to say that even just to keep the game balanced that ancient units (like Axe Men) should be able to kill infantrys and other units similar. But i get most annoyed when my Helicopters get shot (or sliced should i say) by like a f*cking swordsman. So i think we need to remove stupid stuff like that, but to give the players still in the ancient world a chance, we gotta let Axe men try and kill infantry :P
 
Welcome to CFC, Zorde. [party]

@Argetnyx- it is necessary for older units to be able to kill newer units, whether it be realistic or not. Perhaps the chances of such should be diminished to be very negligible regardless of the newer unit's health, but there must always be some small possibility.
 
- it just can't take centuries to produce an archer, or for an archer to traverse a hundred miles.

It's an abstraction to make the game playable. I've yet to see an alternative to this that actually makes for a genuinely better game, as opposed to a more realistic one.

- antiquated military units should never defeat modern ones.

And I am vehemently opposed to this, because it would make a tech lead the only way to win.
 
It's an abstraction to make the game playable. I've yet to see an alternative to this that actually makes for a genuinely better game, as opposed to a more realistic one.

I agree. To make it realistic would require that combat be done on a completely different scale from the normal game. As soon as war broke out the game speed would have to drop to Mega-Marathon which would be exceedingly boring for any player not involved in the war. It's the same problem that introducing bullet-time into an online FPS would have.
 
I think some of us are looking for more realistic gameplay. And others for the game just to be easily playable.

I personally would like to see more of a military gameplay. As ther is more need for tactical manouvers etc rather than just get loads of swordsman and catapults, then just conquer anyone. (that was a bit of an exaggeration but you get the idea :P). I'd also like to see a morale factor, although it may seem complicated, i think that if your fighting a war on a different continent in the middle ages your men should lose a morale loss for not being in contact ect with home or something around those lines... im just shouting out what i think would be good.

Oh! And also surely units should, over long preiods of 'turns' :P eventually starve or something. There's been plenty of times in history when the defender has tried to 'out wait' the attacker. So i think this should be a big issue during earlier game periods and less in modern eras. As rescources are easier to get from supply drops etc.

Also would like to see planet colonization as a future era to the game... but thats been said already :P
 
Tactical maneuvering is, as its name suggests, too tactical for Civ. As far as individaul unit morale, also too tactical. But overall morale is possible.
 
Tactical maneuvering is, as its name suggests, too tactical for Civ. As far as individaul unit morale, also too tactical. But overall morale is possible.

lol. Who are you to say this? The whole SOD complain has for root the fact that it is not tactical enough: you just build a stack and send it to the enemy.

So either you don't complain against SODs, or you can't be against more "tactic" in the battles, but not both. ;)
 
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