Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword Expansion Pack Announced!

[Plotinus]

[risc06] Certainly there's continuity in the sense that the people have survived down the ages, but although it's not exactly clear what a "civilization" is for the purposes of the game, I don't think that counts. You need some kind of political or national entity, not just a population in other countries. You can't represent a group of people living in other countries as a "civ" in the game, no matter what cultural reality it may have in real life. Would you say that, in game terms, the Persian civ continued to exist after the seventh century, on the grounds that there were lots of Persians in the Arabian empire? The Arabs themselves aren't really a good comparison. They're an example of a "civ" which is not just a nation (because there are many Arab countries), which shows that the concept is broader than just countries, but there have always been Arab-controlled countries since the seventh century and Arab culture has remained highly dominant in that part of the world; there's no question of its having been subsumed.

 

[Angst]

[risc06] Certainly there's continuity in the sense that the people have survived down the ages, but although it's not exactly clear what a "civilization" is for the purposes of the game, I don't think that counts. You need some kind of political or national entity, not just a population in other countries. You can't represent a group of people living in other countries as a "civ" in the game, no matter what cultural reality it may have in real life. Would you say that, in game terms, the Persian civ continued to exist after the seventh century, on the grounds that there were lots of Persians in the Arabian empire? The Arabs themselves aren't really a good comparison. They're an example of a "civ" which is not just a nation (because there are many Arab countries), which shows that the concept is broader than just countries, but there have always been Arab-controlled countries since the seventh century and Arab culture has remained highly dominant in that part of the world; there's no question of its having been subsumed.

Finally a person with sense I couldn't agree lesser.

 

[ElPablow]

The dutch may have only 1 unique building and that must be " The coffeeshop"

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The problem is, there is no clear definition of "civilization", other than "what the game producers say it is." So the Sumerians are a civilization in one sense, the Americans in another, the Arabas or Vikings in a third. Under at least one of those definition, Israel can be considered.

 

[risc06]

[risc06] Certainly there's continuity in the sense that the people have survived down the ages, but although it's not exactly clear what a "civilization" is for the purposes of the game, I don't think that counts. You need some kind of political or national entity, not just a population in other countries. You can't represent a group of people living in other countries as a "civ" in the game, no matter what cultural reality it may have in real life. Would you say that, in game terms, the Persian civ continued to exist after the seventh century, on the grounds that there were lots of Persians in the Arabian empire? The Arabs themselves aren't really a good comparison. They're an example of a "civ" which is not just a nation (because there are many Arab countries), which shows that the concept is broader than just countries, but there have always been Arab-controlled countries since the seventh century and Arab culture has remained highly dominant in that part of the world; there's no question of its having been subsumed.

I think we may be arguing at cross-purposes here. I do have to agree with you on the lack of clarity on what qualifies as a 'civ' in the game, and the weakness of my Arab example. However, I think the Arab example is a good illustration of a key issue here: for many, 'Arab' civilization is less important in the middle east as 'Muslim' civilization, but as Krikkitone pointed out earlier, the same problem exists with 'Jewish' civilization in the new game, because both of these are technically religions, not civs.
I think you can justify a Jewish civ though, because of its statehood in the era of David, Solomon, and the later kings; and then later again in the period of the Herodians and Maccabees; and then in the period since the British evacuation of Palestine. Jewish civilization survived conquest by Babylon, Persia, Macedon, Islam, Turkey and Britain (partially by means of the diaspora retaining its different identity from the countries in which Jews were resident).
Similarly, the Persian civilization definitely survived conquest by Macedon, Parthia, the Arabs, Turks and Mongols to reemerge in the sixteenth century under Abbas I. This was a recognisably Persian civilization, rejuvenated by Islam, which was strong enough to impart its art, law and culture to (among others) the Mughal Empire of India. It continues today (Persia only became 'Iran' after the Ayatollah's little revolution in '79) though I'd probably baulk at calling any country headed by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad fully 'civilized'. Perhaps there needs to be a forum thread on 'What Constitutes a Civ' - cause I am never bored by this issue (though I'm sure many of you guys are)?

 

[GIO888]

All the new gameplay tweaks are all very well - I hope there's some tweaks with memory leak too otherwise the late game will remain painfully slow for me.

This is what it needs though, something to make the late game not so tedious.

 

[dutchking]

What are the new leaders besides Boudica, Abraham Lincoln, Hammurabi, Sitting Bull, and perhaps William of Orange?

 

[Angst]

What are the new leaders besides Boudica, Abraham Lincoln, Hammurabi, Sitting Bull, and perhaps William of Orange?

Darius I of Persia maybe?
A new 'proper' Viking leader, such as Gustav I or Margaret I? (Even though they don't represent Sweden or Denmark )
Nelson Mandela for Zulu?
Hitler for Germany maybe?
And Franco of Spain

 

[Chuggi]

Darius I of Persia maybe?
A new 'proper' Viking leader, such as Gustav I or Margaret I? (Even though they don't represent Sweden or Denmark )
Nelson Mandela for Zulu?
Hitler for Germany maybe?

Sadly no Hitler, however I think Franco might be in it.

 

[Kissa]

It seem that the units has been rescaled ? (on the screenshots)
Is it true ?

 

[pay-t]

Let's go over who we know: van Oranje, Hammurabi, Boadicea, Joao, Suleiman, Pacal, Sitting Bull and Lincoln.

3 of them for existing civs, 4 for new ones

16 - 7 = 9 leaders left,

10 - 4 = atleast 6 needed to fill the missing civs

let's say, they all do have one leader, that will mean: 3 new leaders for existing civs. Not big of a chance Franco will be in since his part wasn't all that great. I personnaly think Hitler could be in it, but by doing that they might recieve alot of criticism, so they won't add him.

Well, 9 leaders left, let the guessing begin

 

[Angst]

Not big of a chance Franco will be in since his part wasn't all that great.

That's right , but I'm just sick and tired of Isabella, as she is so predictable... Also, Spain's history deserves another leader (1 is 1 too less). Who would it then be?

BTW new leader for Vikings, Canute ? Greeks, Pericles, anyone? French, Charlemagne?

 

[pay-t]

That's right , but I'm just sick and tired of Isabella, as she is so predictable... Also, Spain's history deserves another leader (1 is 1 too less). Who would it then be?

BTW new leader for Vikings, Canute ? Greeks, Pericles, anyone? French, Charlemagne?

If Spain would have a second leader, I was thinking like: Filip II, or maybe El Cid

 

[dutchking]

The leaders are:
Wilhelm Van Oranje
Lincoln
Suleiman
Hammurabi
Boadica
Joao
Sitting Bull
And Possibly:
Charlemagne
Franco
Hitler
Canute
Pericles

And I think there should be another leader for the following Civs:
Germany
Spain
Persia
Inca
Vikings
France
Ottomans
And a bunch of other ones

 

[pay-t]

@dutchking

Are you stalking me by replying on every thread I posted?

 

[dutchking]

@dutchking

Are you stalking me by replying on every thread I posted?

What?? /

 

[ranLR]

[risc06] Certainly there's continuity in the sense that the people have survived down the ages, but although it's not exactly clear what a "civilization" is for the purposes of the game, I don't think that counts. You need some kind of political or national entity, not just a population in other countries. You can't represent a group of people living in other countries as a "civ" in the game, no matter what cultural reality it may have in real life. Would you say that, in game terms, the Persian civ continued to exist after the seventh century, on the grounds that there were lots of Persians in the Arabian empire? The Arabs themselves aren't really a good comparison. They're an example of a "civ" which is not just a nation (because there are many Arab countries), which shows that the concept is broader than just countries, but there have always been Arab-controlled countries since the seventh century and Arab culture has remained highly dominant in that part of the world; there's no question of its having been subsumed.

I would have to say that your point actually proves why Israel *is* a classic civ for civ and that is the continuity of the Israeli (or Jewish) people despite not having geographic borders. Only a people united by a sense of common ancestry, culture and shared memories (the definitions of "civilization") can survive ages of diaspora while remaning cohesive.
You may not realize, but Israelites in the diaspora (just Jews for that matter) did have leaders who made rulings that affected the whole jewish world from Babylon to Spain (Yehuda Ha-Levy, Saadia Gaon and others).

 

[Thomas_xxx]

Hi,

I have not bought the first add-on (Warlords), but maybe i will buy "beyond the sword". Will everything of warlords be included in this latest add-on, is it needed or not??

 

[Angst]

Hi,

I have not bought the first add-on (Warlords), but maybe i will buy "beyond the sword". Will everything of warlords be included in this latest add-on, is it needed or not??

I think they said in the chat, that Warlords would not be needed, and that you get all Warlords additions in BtS (Except the Scenarios).

 

[ggganz]

Yes, this has been confirmed.