MantaRevan
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,541
For those who really want to know, I find myself most comfortable on Emperor where AI bonuses aren't ridiculous and usually play against AI, although I sometimes play MP.
Civilization Rankings! Part One: Original Civs
- Thread starter Stonecutter9
- Start date
SnowKomodo
Deity
Not to sound like Johnny raincloud here but I much prefer the elimination style threads as opposed to a ranking out of 10 system
The problem with this thread: Some people plays at Prince level, other at King, other at Immortal/Deity...
I only play Immortal or Deity game.
India is by far my favorite Civ (I don't care about Elephant, but the UA is SO STRONG).
I agree: At Prince-King-Emperor level, human "never" lacks of hapinness. Far different at Immortal/Deity level.
So India = 4 at Prince, but 9.5 at Immortal/Deity
France and Egypt = 10 at Prince, but 4 at Immortal/Deity where is more difficult to build many wonders...
Etc, etc.
I only play Immortal or Deity game.
India is by far my favorite Civ (I don't care about Elephant, but the UA is SO STRONG).
I agree: At Prince-King-Emperor level, human "never" lacks of hapinness. Far different at Immortal/Deity level.
So India = 4 at Prince, but 9.5 at Immortal/Deity
France and Egypt = 10 at Prince, but 4 at Immortal/Deity where is more difficult to build many wonders...
Etc, etc.
I disagree! I think they're both fun, but numerical ratings give us much more interesting datapoints. If you gather up all the results from the Wonder-rating threads, you know, for instance, that not only is Angkor Wat the least-favored Wonder, it's a huge outliermore than two points below the next-lowest-rated. At the other end, the Hubble Telescope is rated highest, but barely higher than Petra or the Leaning Tower. The X/10 ratings also give us mean and median figures (both 6, in the case of the Wonders, which I think suggests that the devs did a pretty good job balancing them). If you wanted to make a mod to rebalance the Wonders (or, in the case of this thread, the civs), having numbers like that could be useful for deciding where to make changesfor the Wonders, for instance, I'd conservatively say (based on a pretty small feedback sample, of course), that only Angkor Wat (and maybe the Statue of Zeus and the Red Fort) need fixes.
Anyway, on to meImmortal/Deity, singleplayerand my civ ratings:
Spoiler :
Liufeng
A man of his time
5 - America (Washington):
America seems, to me, THE average civ. Nor too strong, nor too weak. I'd say my greatest complain is the feeling there's nothing outstanding woth them ...
10 - Arabia (Harun al-Rashid):
Gold ! Gold everywhere ! And oil ! And take my religion ! And my super unit ! This civ is STRONG !
8 - China (Wu Zetian):
UA very good for warmongers, and the UU is pretty strong with its double shot, and combined with GG, they're killers ! And the UB is useful at the game start.
7 - Egypt (Ramesses II): I actually love their wonder spam when playing with them, specially combined with tradition. And thanks to their UB ability, they can go pretty any victory type. UU is nothing special.
7 - England (Elizabeth):
Great in sea maps, specially with the bonus move and ship of the line killer. Longbowmen are also very strong. The extra spy can always be useful.
7 - France (Napoleon): Great improvement. THE cultural civ with Brazil !
2 - Germany (Bismarck): Meh. Landsknecht is very useful for its cheapness, but the moment you have the upgrade it ... Panzer comes late, and sorry, converting barbs isn't my thing. Germany has too much to offer to be a simple barb converter.
6 - Greece (Alexander):
The UA is excellent. Very appropriate for diplo civ, or at least keeping the CS bonus without spending too much of your gold. The UU's are nothing special.
6 - India (Gandhi): UA is bit retrictive, but allows huge bonus if you follow the path it asks. The UB is good, specially after flight, although because of the retriction of the UA you can't abuse of it. The UU is strong for its time.
4 - Japan (Oda Nobunaga):
A good warmonger civ, although I hate the Zero, which comes late and is situational. Samurais are cool and strong, annd combined with the UA, they're reletless.
6 - Persia (Darius I):
Awesome ability to maintain golden ages, specially combined with Chichen Itza. The bonus happiness allows you to spam a bit more cities than average. The Immortasl ... good when they're on the field until replacement.
7 - Rome (Augustus Caesar):
Just awesome ability. You cities are far more built thanks to the UA. And very good warmongers when combining the Ballista and the Legion.
7 - Russia (Catherine):
Although not very original, the UA is very strong. The Cossaks are good and the Krepost a bit meh.
10 - Siam (Ramkhamhaeng):
Super ability, montruous UU, and powerful UB. That's all.
5 - Songhai (Askia):
A cavalry with no penalty against cities, meh. UB which offers a bit more culture, not bad. Triple gold from barbs and cities, let the gold flow !
6 - The Aztecs (Montezuma):
UA isn't great, actually a lame feeling. It should also offer faith. It's good to build many jaguars and upgrading them to have a healing army. And the UB ... needs a lake or a river, but if you have, it's super strong !
5 - The Iroquois (Hiawatha):
Everything is awesome ... unless you don't have forests. Lame in that case. So a bit too much situational.
5 - The Ottomans (Suleiman):
Their UA is good, but in my own personnal feelings, I hate it. Doesn't reflect the Ottomans at all, to me. Just like Germany. The two UU are respectable.
America seems, to me, THE average civ. Nor too strong, nor too weak. I'd say my greatest complain is the feeling there's nothing outstanding woth them ...
10 - Arabia (Harun al-Rashid):
Gold ! Gold everywhere ! And oil ! And take my religion ! And my super unit ! This civ is STRONG !
8 - China (Wu Zetian):
UA very good for warmongers, and the UU is pretty strong with its double shot, and combined with GG, they're killers ! And the UB is useful at the game start.
7 - Egypt (Ramesses II): I actually love their wonder spam when playing with them, specially combined with tradition. And thanks to their UB ability, they can go pretty any victory type. UU is nothing special.
7 - England (Elizabeth):
Great in sea maps, specially with the bonus move and ship of the line killer. Longbowmen are also very strong. The extra spy can always be useful.
7 - France (Napoleon): Great improvement. THE cultural civ with Brazil !
2 - Germany (Bismarck): Meh. Landsknecht is very useful for its cheapness, but the moment you have the upgrade it ... Panzer comes late, and sorry, converting barbs isn't my thing. Germany has too much to offer to be a simple barb converter.
6 - Greece (Alexander):
The UA is excellent. Very appropriate for diplo civ, or at least keeping the CS bonus without spending too much of your gold. The UU's are nothing special.
6 - India (Gandhi): UA is bit retrictive, but allows huge bonus if you follow the path it asks. The UB is good, specially after flight, although because of the retriction of the UA you can't abuse of it. The UU is strong for its time.
4 - Japan (Oda Nobunaga):
A good warmonger civ, although I hate the Zero, which comes late and is situational. Samurais are cool and strong, annd combined with the UA, they're reletless.
6 - Persia (Darius I):
Awesome ability to maintain golden ages, specially combined with Chichen Itza. The bonus happiness allows you to spam a bit more cities than average. The Immortasl ... good when they're on the field until replacement.
7 - Rome (Augustus Caesar):
Just awesome ability. You cities are far more built thanks to the UA. And very good warmongers when combining the Ballista and the Legion.
7 - Russia (Catherine):
Although not very original, the UA is very strong. The Cossaks are good and the Krepost a bit meh.
10 - Siam (Ramkhamhaeng):
Super ability, montruous UU, and powerful UB. That's all.
5 - Songhai (Askia):
A cavalry with no penalty against cities, meh. UB which offers a bit more culture, not bad. Triple gold from barbs and cities, let the gold flow !
6 - The Aztecs (Montezuma):
UA isn't great, actually a lame feeling. It should also offer faith. It's good to build many jaguars and upgrading them to have a healing army. And the UB ... needs a lake or a river, but if you have, it's super strong !
5 - The Iroquois (Hiawatha):
Everything is awesome ... unless you don't have forests. Lame in that case. So a bit too much situational.
5 - The Ottomans (Suleiman):
Their UA is good, but in my own personnal feelings, I hate it. Doesn't reflect the Ottomans at all, to me. Just like Germany. The two UU are respectable.
Suicidekills
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 52
Ok, I just wanted write about a few things that stood out with some the rankings people gave.
First of all, someone gave Russia a 1. So to me the credibility of their rankings went right out the window. Their UA alone makes them awesome. Cossacks are a bonus if u know how to fit them in. They're UB obviously sucks but you probably want to build kreposts as Russia anyway for the extra unit XP. The extra border growth is just a way to make Russia look like they do now, One giant mass of land lol. Iv'e had plenty of successful games with them. Granted they were in G&K but I doubt BNW has made them any different. Plus I love vodka
Next, I'd like to defend Germany since it's gotten bad ratings overall and since they were the last civ I played. Their UA is a bit better with BNW imo. The land unit maintenance part obviously didn't change but the fact that barb camps are more common, and they seem to produce better units and produce them more often, makes that part of the UA better. For example in my current game, o I play on immortal btw, I got 3 warriors in the beginning, and then with barb camps still spawning in unsettled territory, I also got a spearman and swordsman. Pretty good especially with the other half of the UA. Also there's like 3 camps I have gotten to yet and Honor opener is a must if playing Germany. Can't say anything about the panzer since I have gotten that far in my game yet, but the landschneckts are pretty awesome. In my current game I got the zulu and the aztecs as my neighbors so I've been warring pretty often which is good lol. But this is where I realized my appreciation for landschneckts. I knew the impi were going to come soon, so I just started churning out landschneckts. Pikemen, I believe, are a great unit for its time to begin with, making them half price is awesome. I was able to throw multiple landschneckts at the zulu impi with out any care because they took me an average of 3 turns to make. I had plenty of CBs to clean the impis up and I was able to take out the zulu easily. On another note it makes sense that a civ that pays 25% less for land unit maintenance has two UUs.
Finally, I saw a few poor scores for Iroquois which is only second in ridiculousness to Russia getting a 1. Their UA is awesome. The mobility you can have around your cities is ridiculous plus if you do it right you can basically have free city connections. Liberty is a must for me with this civ because I'm going for 3 tile away city spots with 3 forests in between for automatic city connections. Don't have a lot of forests around?? GO LOOKING FOR THEM!!! That's another reason why I tend to go liberty with them. I don't know why people expect the best starting location every time. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. This doesn't just apply to the Iroquois. The whole point of the game is to make the best civilization with what you got. It's basically a game of making tough decisions just like you'd have to do if you were actually running an empire. Anyway once you find a good forest location (hopefully in your capital but not necessarily), a longhouse can make that city into a production powerhouse. Plus you get mohawk warrior which is a better swordsman that costs no iron and has advantages fighting in forests and jungles. If you're trying to gobble up as much forested land as possible, this unit is definitely great for protecting that land. Definitely an above average civ in my opinion.
I personally think the devs did a great job at making all the civs pretty balanced. Granted there are civs like China and Arabia that on paper are awesome compared to other civs but until you play some of the other civs in a full game I don't think you're able to appreciate the civ. Also I always enjoy finding out not so obvious bonuses of a civ like landschneckt vs impi. What a great counter to the impi. Honestly without those landschneckts I'm not quite sure if I would have been able to take out the zulu, at least I would have had a more difficult time.
First of all, someone gave Russia a 1. So to me the credibility of their rankings went right out the window. Their UA alone makes them awesome. Cossacks are a bonus if u know how to fit them in. They're UB obviously sucks but you probably want to build kreposts as Russia anyway for the extra unit XP. The extra border growth is just a way to make Russia look like they do now, One giant mass of land lol. Iv'e had plenty of successful games with them. Granted they were in G&K but I doubt BNW has made them any different. Plus I love vodka
Next, I'd like to defend Germany since it's gotten bad ratings overall and since they were the last civ I played. Their UA is a bit better with BNW imo. The land unit maintenance part obviously didn't change but the fact that barb camps are more common, and they seem to produce better units and produce them more often, makes that part of the UA better. For example in my current game, o I play on immortal btw, I got 3 warriors in the beginning, and then with barb camps still spawning in unsettled territory, I also got a spearman and swordsman. Pretty good especially with the other half of the UA. Also there's like 3 camps I have gotten to yet and Honor opener is a must if playing Germany. Can't say anything about the panzer since I have gotten that far in my game yet, but the landschneckts are pretty awesome. In my current game I got the zulu and the aztecs as my neighbors so I've been warring pretty often which is good lol. But this is where I realized my appreciation for landschneckts. I knew the impi were going to come soon, so I just started churning out landschneckts. Pikemen, I believe, are a great unit for its time to begin with, making them half price is awesome. I was able to throw multiple landschneckts at the zulu impi with out any care because they took me an average of 3 turns to make. I had plenty of CBs to clean the impis up and I was able to take out the zulu easily. On another note it makes sense that a civ that pays 25% less for land unit maintenance has two UUs.
Finally, I saw a few poor scores for Iroquois which is only second in ridiculousness to Russia getting a 1. Their UA is awesome. The mobility you can have around your cities is ridiculous plus if you do it right you can basically have free city connections. Liberty is a must for me with this civ because I'm going for 3 tile away city spots with 3 forests in between for automatic city connections. Don't have a lot of forests around?? GO LOOKING FOR THEM!!! That's another reason why I tend to go liberty with them. I don't know why people expect the best starting location every time. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. This doesn't just apply to the Iroquois. The whole point of the game is to make the best civilization with what you got. It's basically a game of making tough decisions just like you'd have to do if you were actually running an empire. Anyway once you find a good forest location (hopefully in your capital but not necessarily), a longhouse can make that city into a production powerhouse. Plus you get mohawk warrior which is a better swordsman that costs no iron and has advantages fighting in forests and jungles. If you're trying to gobble up as much forested land as possible, this unit is definitely great for protecting that land. Definitely an above average civ in my opinion.
I personally think the devs did a great job at making all the civs pretty balanced. Granted there are civs like China and Arabia that on paper are awesome compared to other civs but until you play some of the other civs in a full game I don't think you're able to appreciate the civ. Also I always enjoy finding out not so obvious bonuses of a civ like landschneckt vs impi. What a great counter to the impi. Honestly without those landschneckts I'm not quite sure if I would have been able to take out the zulu, at least I would have had a more difficult time.
I rated the Iroquois very badly, so I'll tackle this at greater length.
Their UA is terrible. Best-case scenario, you get some free city connections, which is a pretty crappy UA to begin with (Carthage gets free city connections more easily, and they come with a free building, plus another perk) and made worse by the fact that it goes obsolete: eventually, you're going to build a road (and then railroad) network anyway, because the UA is a finicky pain in the ass that doesn't actually work like roads (no bridges, for example). And in the worst-case scenario (you start near very little forest/jungle, have to chop forest/jungle for luxuries, etc.), you get nothing at all from the UA. Being able to move around your own territory a little faster is a very, very minor perk—shouldn't your units be off in foreign territory, getting things done?
Their UB is usually bad. In the best-case scenario, it's insanely good, yes. Maybe you've got a couple big cities with 10+ forests. That's +10 production per city—but then also -10% off your base production, so probably more like +5-7 overall. Still amazing. Unfortunately, there's also a worst-case scenario: -10% production in every city. Like the Indian and Venetian UAs, this is that rare unique that can seriously hurt you. And which one is more likely, the best case or the worst? Forests just aren't that common. You'll start near a few forest tiles, of course, but what are the odds that you'll be able to plant all of your cities near large forests? You need 4-5 forests per city for the Longhouse to actually be a net positive. Unless you start in a big forest (very rare) and expand quickly, it's just not going to happen. And civs you conquer will, of course, have chopped most of theirs, so military expansion doesn't work in the Iroquois' favor.
Their UU used to be a total monster; it was easily the best thing about the civ. But it's a Swordsman, and Swordsmen are basically useless now. Like Denmark, Japan, and Germany, the Iroquois really took it on the chin when G&K came out.
- America (Washington): 6
UU: B17 [Bomber]; The B17 Bomber is an American Unique Unit, replacing the bomber. It is similar to the bomber, but it is more difficult for enemy anti-aircraft and fighters to target. The B17 also receives a bonus when attacking enemy cities. Like the bomber, the B17's range is 10. See the rules on Aircraft for more details.
UU: Minuteman [Musketman]; The Minuteman is the American unique unit, replacing the Musketman. The Minuteman can move through difficult terrain as though it were clear (all tiles cost 1mp per hex) and receives a bonus when fighting in rough terrain.
UA: Manifest Destiny; All land military units have +1 sight. 50% discount when purchasing tiles.
- Arabia (Harun al-Rashid): 8
UU: Camel Archer [Knight]; The Camel Archer is the Arabian unique unit, replacing the Knight. The Camel Archer is a powerful ranged attack unit, allowing it to do damage to enemies 2 hexes away. It can move after combat. The Camel Archer is less powerful than the Knight in melee combat. As a mounted unit, the Camel Archer is vulnerable to Pikemen attack.
UB: Bazaar [Market]; The Bazaar is the Arabian unique building, replacing the Market. The Bazaar provides a Gold bonus to the city. The civilization gains one additional copy of each luxury resource provided by a city possessing a Bazaar. The Bazaar provides +2 Gold on Oil and Oases.
UA: Ships of the Desert; Caravans gain 50% extended range. Your trade routes spread the home city's religion twice as effectively. Oil resources are doubled.
- China (Wu Zetian): 7
UU: Chu-Ko-Nu [Crossbowman]; The Chu-Ko-Nu is the Chinese unique unit, replacing the Crossbowman. The Chu-Ko-Nu is slightly less powerful than the Crossbowman, but it can attack twice during a turn, giving it a hefty offensive punch. This unit is particularly deadly when garrisoned in a city that is under attack.
UB: Paper Maker [Library]; The Paper Maker is the Chinese unique building, replacing the Library. The Paper Maker increases the city's acquisition of Science and also provides a boost to the city's intake of Gold.
UA: Art of War; The Great General combat bonus is increased by 15%, and their spawn rate is increased by 50%.
- Egypt (Ramesses II): 8
UU: War Chariot [Chariot Archer]; The War Chariot is the Egyptian unique unit, replacing the Chariot Archer. It is faster than the standard Chariot Archer, and the Egyptian player can construct it even if he doesn't possess Horses. A mounted unit, the War Chariot is quite vulnerable to the Spearman.
UB: Burial Tomb [Temple]; The Burial Tomb is a Classical-era building which increases the city's output of Happiness, and costs no maintenance for the city. However, if the city is captured, the capturing civilization will gain twice as much gold as would be the case in a city without a Burial Tomb. It replaces the Temple.
UA: Monument Builders; +20% Production towards Wonder construction.
- England (Elizabeth): 7
UU: Longbowman [Crossbowman]; The Longbowman is the English unique unit, replacing the Crossbowman. The Longbowman has a greater range than the Crossbowman, allowing it to attack enemies three hexes away, often destroying them before they can strike back. Like other ranged units, Longbowmen are vulnerable to melee attack.
UU: Ship of the Line [Frigate]; The Ship of the Line is the English unique unit, replacing the Frigate. The Ship of the Line has a slightly higher Ranged Combat strength than the Frigate, and it's slightly cheaper to produce. It can see one hex farther than the Frigate, allowing it to spot enemies in a significantly larger section of ocean.
UA: Sun Never Sets; +2 Movement for all naval units. Receives 1 extra Spy.
- France (Napoleon): 7
UU: Musketeer [Musketman]; The Musketeer is the French unique unit, replacing the Musketman. The Musketeer is significantly more powerful than the Musketman, making it the most powerful foot soldier unit in the game (until the introduction of Industrial Era Infantry units).
UI: Chateau [N/A]; A Chateau must be built adjacent to a Luxury resource. It may not be adjacent to another Chateau. It provides one additional Gold and 2 Culture. It also provides the same +50% defense bonus as a Fort. When Flight is researched its Culture yield increases by 1 and its Gold output rises by 2. Must be built in French territory.
UA: City of Light; Museum and World Wonder theming bonuses are doubled in their capital.
- Germany (Bismarck): 5
UU: Landsknecht [Pikeman]; The Landsknecht is a German unique unit. This unit replaces the Pikeman unit. The Landsknecht is as powerful as the Pikeman unit, but it costs only half as much to produce, allowing the German player to build up a medieval army in a shockingly short period of time. Landsknecht units are deadly against mounted units like Knights.
UU: Panzer [Tank]; The Panzer is the German unique unit, replacing the tank. It is both stronger and faster than the tank. It also can move after combat, allowing it to blow huge holes in enemy lines and then barrel through before the enemy can repair the gap.
UA: Furor Teutonicus; Upon defeating a Barbarian unit inside an encampment, there is a 50% chance you earn 25 Gold and they join your side. Pay 25% less for land unit maintenance.
- Greece (Alexander): 7
UU: Companion Cavalry [Horseman]; Companion Cavalry are Greek unique units, replacing the Horseman. Companion Cavalry are faster and more powerful than the Horseman unit, making them the most dangerous cavalry units until the arrival of the Knight. Companion Cavalry help generate Great Generals more rapidly than other units. In addition, they can move after attacking. Companion Cavalry are mounted, and still vulnerable to Spearmen and Pikemen attack.
UU: Hoplite [Spearman]; The Hoplite is the Greek unique unit, replacing the Spearman. It is far more powerful than the Spearman. The Hoplite is deadly against mounted opponents.
UA: Hellenic League; City-State Influence degrades at half and recovers at twice the normal rate.
- India (Gandhi): 6
UU: War Elephant [Chariot Archer]; The War Elephant is the Indian unique unit, replacing the Chariot Archer. It is more powerful (if slower) than the Chariot Archer and can move through any terrain without the Chariot Archer's penalty. A mounted unit, the War Elephant is quite vulnerable to the Spearman.
UB: Mughal Fort [Castle]; The Mughal Fort is a Medieval-era building that increases the city's Defense Strength by 7, Hit Points by 25, and provides some Culture every turn. It is the Indian unique building, replacing the Castle. After Flight is learned, it provides +2 Tourism as well. Building Walls is a prerequisite for building the Mughal Fort.
UA: Population Growth; Unhappiness from number of Cities doubled, Unhappiness from number of Citizens halved.
- Japan (Oda Nobunaga): 4
UU: Samurai [Longswordsman]; The Samurai are the Japanese unique unit, replacing the Longswordsman. As powerful as the Swordsman, the Samurai automatically receives the "Shock I" promotion, giving it a bonus when fighting in open terrain. Success in combat with a Samurai has an increased chance of generating Great Generals.
UU: Zero [Fighter]; The Zero is the Japanese unique unit, replacing the fighter. The Zero is a moderately-powerful air unit. It is like the standard fighter, except that it gets a significant combat bonus when battling other fighters. It can be based in any city you own or aboard an aircraft carrier. It can move from city to city (or carrier) and can perform "missions" within its range of 8 tiles. See the rules on Aircraft for more information.
UA: Bushido; Units fight as though they were at full strength even when damaged.
- Persia (Darius I): 6
UU: Immortal [Spearman]; The Immortal is the Persian unique unit, replacing the Spearman. It is slightly more powerful than the Spearman, and it heals twice as quickly. It is quite deadly against mounted units.
UB: Satraps Court [Bank]; The Satrap's Court is the Persian unique building. It replaces the Bank. Like a bank the Satrap's Court increases the city's output of wealth. However, the Satrap's Court also increases the civilization's Happiness. The city must have a Market before the Satrap's Court may be constructed.
UA: Achaemenid Legacy; Golden Ages last 50% longer. During a Golden Age, units receive +1 Movement and a +10% Combat Strength bonus.
- Rome (Augustus Caesar): 8
UU: Ballista [Catapult]; Roman unique unit, more powerful than the Catapult it replaces. The Ballista is an excellent siege weapon. It is extremely useful against cities, but it is quite vulnerable to attack. Be sure to protect the Ballista with other military units. The Ballista must first "set up" (1 MP) before attacking.
UU: Legion [Swordsman]; The Legion is the Roman unique unit, replacing the Swordsman. The Legion is more powerful than the Swordsman, making it the most powerful melee unit of the Classical Era. The Legion can also construct roads and forts and is the only non-Worker unit able to do so.
UA: The Glory of Rome; +25% Production towards any buildings that already exist in the Capital.
- Russia (Catherine): 5
UU: Cossack [Cavalry]; The Cossack is a Russian unique unit, replacing the Cavalry. They are the same strength as Cavalry and can also move after attacking. However, Cossack units get a strong combat bonus when battling damaged units. This makes Cossacks exceptionally strong at counter-attacking - let the enemy chew up the front-line peasants, then tear the weakened foe apart with a Cossack charge!
UB: Krepost [Barracks]; The Krepost is the Russian unique building, replacing the barracks. The Krepost provides 15 experience points for all military units constructed in its city. In addition, the Krepost increases the city's cultural border growth by 25%. It's quite worthwhile to construct these useful buildings in all Russian cities, but especially in cities on the civilization's frontiers.
UA: Siberian Riches; Strategic Resources provide +1 Production and Horse, Iron and Uranium Resources provide double quantity.
- Siam (Ramkhamhaeng): 7
UU: Naresuans Elephant [Knight]; This is the Siamese unique unit, replacing the Knight. The Naresuan's Elephant unit is slower than a Knight but it is more powerful. Like the Knight the Naresuan's Elephant can move after attacking. Equipped with spears, the Elephant gets a significant combat bonus when attacking other mounted units.
UB: Wat [University]; The Wat is the Siamese unique building, replacing the University. The Wat increases the Culture of a city, speeding the growth of its borders and the civilization's acquisition of Social Policies. The Wat also provides a Science bonus to the city.
UA: Father Governs Children; Food, Culture, and Faith from friendly City-States increased by 50%.
- Songhai (Askia): 5
UU: Mandekalu Cavalry [Knight]; This is a Songhai unique unit, replacing the Knight. This unit has the same statistics as the Knight, but it is significantly better at attacking cities. The Mandekalu Cavalry can move after attacking. Its speed makes it difficult for an enemy to build a defensive line before the Mandekalu Cavalry reaches the target.
UB: Mud Pyramid Mosque [Temple]; The Mud Pyramid Mosque is a Songhai unique building, replacing the Temple. The Mud Pyramid Mosque greatly increases the city's Culture, speeding the growth of the city's territory and the civilization's acquisition of Social Policies. The Mud Pyramid Mosque has no maintenance costs.
UA: River Warlord; Receive triple Gold from Barbarian encampments and pillaging Cities. Land units gain the War Canoe and Amphibious promotions, strengthening them while embarked.
- The Aztecs (Montezuma): 6
UU: Jaguar [Warrior]; The Jaguar is the Aztec unique unit, replacing the Warrior. The Jaguar receives a big bonus when battling in Jungle. It also heals damage when it destroys enemy units and has the Woodsman promotion, allowing it to move through Forest and Jungle quickly.
UB: Floating Gardens [Water Mill]; The Floating Gardens is the Aztec unique building, replacing the Water Mill. It increases the city's Food output, and should be built if the city is near a lake or river.
UA: Sacrificial Captives; Gains Culture for the empire from each enemy unit killed.
- The Iroquois (Hiawatha): 8
UU: Mohawk Warrior [Swordsman]; The Mohawk Warrior is the Iroquoian unique unit, replacing the Swordsman. As powerful as the Swordsman in Clear or Hilly terrain, the Mohawk Warrior receives a significant combat bonus in Forest and Jungle. Also, unlike the Swordsman, it does not require Iron to build.
UB: Longhouse [Workshop]; The Longhouse is the Iroquois unique building, replacing the Workshop. It increases the city's Production output for each forest within the city's radius.
UA: Great Warpath; Units move through Forest and Jungle in friendly territory as if they were Roads. These tiles can be used to establish City Connections upon researching The Wheel. Caravans move along Forest and Jungle as if they were Roads.
- The Ottomans (Suleiman): 5
UU: Janissary [Musketman]; The Janissary is an Ottoman unique unit, replacing the Musketman. The Janissary receives a significant combat bonus when on the attack. In addition, the Janissary unit automatically heals all damage when it destroys a non-Barbarian unit. This can give a Janissary army a crushing advantage against an enemy force on the defensive.
UU: Sipahi [Lancer]; The Sipahi is the Ottoman unique unit, replacing the Lancer. The Sipahi is much faster and can see one hex farther than the Lancer, although it shares the Lancer's weaknesses on defense. The Sipahi can pillage enemy improvements at no additional cost.
UA: Barbary Corsairs; All melee naval units have the Prize Ships promotion, allowing them to capture defeated ships. Pay only one-third the usual cost for naval unit maintenance.
UU: B17 [Bomber]; The B17 Bomber is an American Unique Unit, replacing the bomber. It is similar to the bomber, but it is more difficult for enemy anti-aircraft and fighters to target. The B17 also receives a bonus when attacking enemy cities. Like the bomber, the B17's range is 10. See the rules on Aircraft for more details.
UU: Minuteman [Musketman]; The Minuteman is the American unique unit, replacing the Musketman. The Minuteman can move through difficult terrain as though it were clear (all tiles cost 1mp per hex) and receives a bonus when fighting in rough terrain.
UA: Manifest Destiny; All land military units have +1 sight. 50% discount when purchasing tiles.
- Arabia (Harun al-Rashid): 8
UU: Camel Archer [Knight]; The Camel Archer is the Arabian unique unit, replacing the Knight. The Camel Archer is a powerful ranged attack unit, allowing it to do damage to enemies 2 hexes away. It can move after combat. The Camel Archer is less powerful than the Knight in melee combat. As a mounted unit, the Camel Archer is vulnerable to Pikemen attack.
UB: Bazaar [Market]; The Bazaar is the Arabian unique building, replacing the Market. The Bazaar provides a Gold bonus to the city. The civilization gains one additional copy of each luxury resource provided by a city possessing a Bazaar. The Bazaar provides +2 Gold on Oil and Oases.
UA: Ships of the Desert; Caravans gain 50% extended range. Your trade routes spread the home city's religion twice as effectively. Oil resources are doubled.
- China (Wu Zetian): 7
UU: Chu-Ko-Nu [Crossbowman]; The Chu-Ko-Nu is the Chinese unique unit, replacing the Crossbowman. The Chu-Ko-Nu is slightly less powerful than the Crossbowman, but it can attack twice during a turn, giving it a hefty offensive punch. This unit is particularly deadly when garrisoned in a city that is under attack.
UB: Paper Maker [Library]; The Paper Maker is the Chinese unique building, replacing the Library. The Paper Maker increases the city's acquisition of Science and also provides a boost to the city's intake of Gold.
UA: Art of War; The Great General combat bonus is increased by 15%, and their spawn rate is increased by 50%.
- Egypt (Ramesses II): 8
UU: War Chariot [Chariot Archer]; The War Chariot is the Egyptian unique unit, replacing the Chariot Archer. It is faster than the standard Chariot Archer, and the Egyptian player can construct it even if he doesn't possess Horses. A mounted unit, the War Chariot is quite vulnerable to the Spearman.
UB: Burial Tomb [Temple]; The Burial Tomb is a Classical-era building which increases the city's output of Happiness, and costs no maintenance for the city. However, if the city is captured, the capturing civilization will gain twice as much gold as would be the case in a city without a Burial Tomb. It replaces the Temple.
UA: Monument Builders; +20% Production towards Wonder construction.
- England (Elizabeth): 7
UU: Longbowman [Crossbowman]; The Longbowman is the English unique unit, replacing the Crossbowman. The Longbowman has a greater range than the Crossbowman, allowing it to attack enemies three hexes away, often destroying them before they can strike back. Like other ranged units, Longbowmen are vulnerable to melee attack.
UU: Ship of the Line [Frigate]; The Ship of the Line is the English unique unit, replacing the Frigate. The Ship of the Line has a slightly higher Ranged Combat strength than the Frigate, and it's slightly cheaper to produce. It can see one hex farther than the Frigate, allowing it to spot enemies in a significantly larger section of ocean.
UA: Sun Never Sets; +2 Movement for all naval units. Receives 1 extra Spy.
- France (Napoleon): 7
UU: Musketeer [Musketman]; The Musketeer is the French unique unit, replacing the Musketman. The Musketeer is significantly more powerful than the Musketman, making it the most powerful foot soldier unit in the game (until the introduction of Industrial Era Infantry units).
UI: Chateau [N/A]; A Chateau must be built adjacent to a Luxury resource. It may not be adjacent to another Chateau. It provides one additional Gold and 2 Culture. It also provides the same +50% defense bonus as a Fort. When Flight is researched its Culture yield increases by 1 and its Gold output rises by 2. Must be built in French territory.
UA: City of Light; Museum and World Wonder theming bonuses are doubled in their capital.
- Germany (Bismarck): 5
UU: Landsknecht [Pikeman]; The Landsknecht is a German unique unit. This unit replaces the Pikeman unit. The Landsknecht is as powerful as the Pikeman unit, but it costs only half as much to produce, allowing the German player to build up a medieval army in a shockingly short period of time. Landsknecht units are deadly against mounted units like Knights.
UU: Panzer [Tank]; The Panzer is the German unique unit, replacing the tank. It is both stronger and faster than the tank. It also can move after combat, allowing it to blow huge holes in enemy lines and then barrel through before the enemy can repair the gap.
UA: Furor Teutonicus; Upon defeating a Barbarian unit inside an encampment, there is a 50% chance you earn 25 Gold and they join your side. Pay 25% less for land unit maintenance.
- Greece (Alexander): 7
UU: Companion Cavalry [Horseman]; Companion Cavalry are Greek unique units, replacing the Horseman. Companion Cavalry are faster and more powerful than the Horseman unit, making them the most dangerous cavalry units until the arrival of the Knight. Companion Cavalry help generate Great Generals more rapidly than other units. In addition, they can move after attacking. Companion Cavalry are mounted, and still vulnerable to Spearmen and Pikemen attack.
UU: Hoplite [Spearman]; The Hoplite is the Greek unique unit, replacing the Spearman. It is far more powerful than the Spearman. The Hoplite is deadly against mounted opponents.
UA: Hellenic League; City-State Influence degrades at half and recovers at twice the normal rate.
- India (Gandhi): 6
UU: War Elephant [Chariot Archer]; The War Elephant is the Indian unique unit, replacing the Chariot Archer. It is more powerful (if slower) than the Chariot Archer and can move through any terrain without the Chariot Archer's penalty. A mounted unit, the War Elephant is quite vulnerable to the Spearman.
UB: Mughal Fort [Castle]; The Mughal Fort is a Medieval-era building that increases the city's Defense Strength by 7, Hit Points by 25, and provides some Culture every turn. It is the Indian unique building, replacing the Castle. After Flight is learned, it provides +2 Tourism as well. Building Walls is a prerequisite for building the Mughal Fort.
UA: Population Growth; Unhappiness from number of Cities doubled, Unhappiness from number of Citizens halved.
- Japan (Oda Nobunaga): 4
UU: Samurai [Longswordsman]; The Samurai are the Japanese unique unit, replacing the Longswordsman. As powerful as the Swordsman, the Samurai automatically receives the "Shock I" promotion, giving it a bonus when fighting in open terrain. Success in combat with a Samurai has an increased chance of generating Great Generals.
UU: Zero [Fighter]; The Zero is the Japanese unique unit, replacing the fighter. The Zero is a moderately-powerful air unit. It is like the standard fighter, except that it gets a significant combat bonus when battling other fighters. It can be based in any city you own or aboard an aircraft carrier. It can move from city to city (or carrier) and can perform "missions" within its range of 8 tiles. See the rules on Aircraft for more information.
UA: Bushido; Units fight as though they were at full strength even when damaged.
- Persia (Darius I): 6
UU: Immortal [Spearman]; The Immortal is the Persian unique unit, replacing the Spearman. It is slightly more powerful than the Spearman, and it heals twice as quickly. It is quite deadly against mounted units.
UB: Satraps Court [Bank]; The Satrap's Court is the Persian unique building. It replaces the Bank. Like a bank the Satrap's Court increases the city's output of wealth. However, the Satrap's Court also increases the civilization's Happiness. The city must have a Market before the Satrap's Court may be constructed.
UA: Achaemenid Legacy; Golden Ages last 50% longer. During a Golden Age, units receive +1 Movement and a +10% Combat Strength bonus.
- Rome (Augustus Caesar): 8
UU: Ballista [Catapult]; Roman unique unit, more powerful than the Catapult it replaces. The Ballista is an excellent siege weapon. It is extremely useful against cities, but it is quite vulnerable to attack. Be sure to protect the Ballista with other military units. The Ballista must first "set up" (1 MP) before attacking.
UU: Legion [Swordsman]; The Legion is the Roman unique unit, replacing the Swordsman. The Legion is more powerful than the Swordsman, making it the most powerful melee unit of the Classical Era. The Legion can also construct roads and forts and is the only non-Worker unit able to do so.
UA: The Glory of Rome; +25% Production towards any buildings that already exist in the Capital.
- Russia (Catherine): 5
UU: Cossack [Cavalry]; The Cossack is a Russian unique unit, replacing the Cavalry. They are the same strength as Cavalry and can also move after attacking. However, Cossack units get a strong combat bonus when battling damaged units. This makes Cossacks exceptionally strong at counter-attacking - let the enemy chew up the front-line peasants, then tear the weakened foe apart with a Cossack charge!
UB: Krepost [Barracks]; The Krepost is the Russian unique building, replacing the barracks. The Krepost provides 15 experience points for all military units constructed in its city. In addition, the Krepost increases the city's cultural border growth by 25%. It's quite worthwhile to construct these useful buildings in all Russian cities, but especially in cities on the civilization's frontiers.
UA: Siberian Riches; Strategic Resources provide +1 Production and Horse, Iron and Uranium Resources provide double quantity.
- Siam (Ramkhamhaeng): 7
UU: Naresuans Elephant [Knight]; This is the Siamese unique unit, replacing the Knight. The Naresuan's Elephant unit is slower than a Knight but it is more powerful. Like the Knight the Naresuan's Elephant can move after attacking. Equipped with spears, the Elephant gets a significant combat bonus when attacking other mounted units.
UB: Wat [University]; The Wat is the Siamese unique building, replacing the University. The Wat increases the Culture of a city, speeding the growth of its borders and the civilization's acquisition of Social Policies. The Wat also provides a Science bonus to the city.
UA: Father Governs Children; Food, Culture, and Faith from friendly City-States increased by 50%.
- Songhai (Askia): 5
UU: Mandekalu Cavalry [Knight]; This is a Songhai unique unit, replacing the Knight. This unit has the same statistics as the Knight, but it is significantly better at attacking cities. The Mandekalu Cavalry can move after attacking. Its speed makes it difficult for an enemy to build a defensive line before the Mandekalu Cavalry reaches the target.
UB: Mud Pyramid Mosque [Temple]; The Mud Pyramid Mosque is a Songhai unique building, replacing the Temple. The Mud Pyramid Mosque greatly increases the city's Culture, speeding the growth of the city's territory and the civilization's acquisition of Social Policies. The Mud Pyramid Mosque has no maintenance costs.
UA: River Warlord; Receive triple Gold from Barbarian encampments and pillaging Cities. Land units gain the War Canoe and Amphibious promotions, strengthening them while embarked.
- The Aztecs (Montezuma): 6
UU: Jaguar [Warrior]; The Jaguar is the Aztec unique unit, replacing the Warrior. The Jaguar receives a big bonus when battling in Jungle. It also heals damage when it destroys enemy units and has the Woodsman promotion, allowing it to move through Forest and Jungle quickly.
UB: Floating Gardens [Water Mill]; The Floating Gardens is the Aztec unique building, replacing the Water Mill. It increases the city's Food output, and should be built if the city is near a lake or river.
UA: Sacrificial Captives; Gains Culture for the empire from each enemy unit killed.
- The Iroquois (Hiawatha): 8
UU: Mohawk Warrior [Swordsman]; The Mohawk Warrior is the Iroquoian unique unit, replacing the Swordsman. As powerful as the Swordsman in Clear or Hilly terrain, the Mohawk Warrior receives a significant combat bonus in Forest and Jungle. Also, unlike the Swordsman, it does not require Iron to build.
UB: Longhouse [Workshop]; The Longhouse is the Iroquois unique building, replacing the Workshop. It increases the city's Production output for each forest within the city's radius.
UA: Great Warpath; Units move through Forest and Jungle in friendly territory as if they were Roads. These tiles can be used to establish City Connections upon researching The Wheel. Caravans move along Forest and Jungle as if they were Roads.
- The Ottomans (Suleiman): 5
UU: Janissary [Musketman]; The Janissary is an Ottoman unique unit, replacing the Musketman. The Janissary receives a significant combat bonus when on the attack. In addition, the Janissary unit automatically heals all damage when it destroys a non-Barbarian unit. This can give a Janissary army a crushing advantage against an enemy force on the defensive.
UU: Sipahi [Lancer]; The Sipahi is the Ottoman unique unit, replacing the Lancer. The Sipahi is much faster and can see one hex farther than the Lancer, although it shares the Lancer's weaknesses on defense. The Sipahi can pillage enemy improvements at no additional cost.
UA: Barbary Corsairs; All melee naval units have the Prize Ships promotion, allowing them to capture defeated ships. Pay only one-third the usual cost for naval unit maintenance.
blackcatatonic
Queen of Meme
6 - America (Washington)
I haven't played as them very often. I remember the Minuteman being rather nice in the right conditions.
9 - Arabia (Harun al-Rashid):
Have yet to try them in BNW but they were great in Vanilla/G&K and the changes just make them sound stronger.
8 - China (Wu Zetian):
Another very solid Civ, perhaps not the most exciting but consistently very good.
6 - Egypt (Ramesses II):
Hmm. The UA is nice, but it can trap you into trying to build too many Wonders if you're not careful. Their UU is, frankly, lame. Hoping to try the Burial Tombs + Sacred Sites spamming technique soon for a vast Culture Victory.
9 - England (Elizabeth):
My absolute favourite militaristic vanilla Civ. They have the best non-mounted UU in the game, an amazing UA that was frankly borderline ridiculous even before the free spy was added... what more could you ask?
6 - France (Napoleon):
I actually like them a little less in BNW than I did in vanlla/G&K where they were my go-tos. Musketeers are uninspiring and the Château needs to be placed very carefully. The new UA isn't as powerful as the old one was, and is next to useless if you can't get the GW wonders built in Paris. Old France would have been a solid 8.
6 - Germany (Bismarck):
I very rarely play militarily, so they don't really interest me. I feel they are a little one-note, especially with the Zulus.
6- Greece (Alexander):
Nice UA if you're going Diplomacy. The UUs are lacklustre though.
3 - India (Gandhi):
Ugh. I played them once and the experience bored me to tears so I haven't been back since. Not to mention they seem to get a Jungle start bias which leads to a slow, frustrating start. I can't entirely hate the War Elephant though.
5 - Japan (Oda Nobunaga):
Another entirely war-focused Civ that holds little appeal for me. I really rate the Samurai when I've got to use them; the Zero, not so much.
8- Persia (Darius I):
It's all about the UA. A great Civ for builders such as myself.
7 - Rome (Augustus Caesar):
Next to England, probably my favourite of the military-focused Civs, in no small part because I love playing wide (or should say 'loved' as it's much harder to do in BNW).
7 - Russia (Catherine):
I have played as Russia exactly once. This was by far the most entertaining Civ game I've ever had. Weirdly I didn't make much use of the uniques (except Siberian Riches and a couple of Kreposts) so I can't really ascribe the experience to the fact that I was Russia. I'd like to play them again.
9 - Siam (Ramkhamhaeng):
Another really strong peaceful Civ, with an immensely helpful UA, a Culture-giving UB and a medieval-era tank of a UU. Not much more to say.
7 - Songhai (Askia):
Another Civ I haven't played as frequently as I ought to have done. I get the impression they're underrated. I imagine the UA is quite nice in BNW with the lack of early-game gold, and I could see them making good use of the new Piety as well.
5 - The Aztecs (Montezuma):
Every time I have ever attempted to play as Montezuma, I have ended up getting bored and not finishing the game. No idea why.
5 - The Iroquois (Hiawatha):
Never tried them, not in a hurry to either.
7 - The Ottomans (Suleiman):
Somewhat situational, but then so are England. Janissaries are great.
I haven't played as them very often. I remember the Minuteman being rather nice in the right conditions.
9 - Arabia (Harun al-Rashid):
Have yet to try them in BNW but they were great in Vanilla/G&K and the changes just make them sound stronger.
8 - China (Wu Zetian):
Another very solid Civ, perhaps not the most exciting but consistently very good.
6 - Egypt (Ramesses II):
Hmm. The UA is nice, but it can trap you into trying to build too many Wonders if you're not careful. Their UU is, frankly, lame. Hoping to try the Burial Tombs + Sacred Sites spamming technique soon for a vast Culture Victory.
9 - England (Elizabeth):
My absolute favourite militaristic vanilla Civ. They have the best non-mounted UU in the game, an amazing UA that was frankly borderline ridiculous even before the free spy was added... what more could you ask?
6 - France (Napoleon):
I actually like them a little less in BNW than I did in vanlla/G&K where they were my go-tos. Musketeers are uninspiring and the Château needs to be placed very carefully. The new UA isn't as powerful as the old one was, and is next to useless if you can't get the GW wonders built in Paris. Old France would have been a solid 8.
6 - Germany (Bismarck):
I very rarely play militarily, so they don't really interest me. I feel they are a little one-note, especially with the Zulus.
6- Greece (Alexander):
Nice UA if you're going Diplomacy. The UUs are lacklustre though.
3 - India (Gandhi):
Ugh. I played them once and the experience bored me to tears so I haven't been back since. Not to mention they seem to get a Jungle start bias which leads to a slow, frustrating start. I can't entirely hate the War Elephant though.
5 - Japan (Oda Nobunaga):
Another entirely war-focused Civ that holds little appeal for me. I really rate the Samurai when I've got to use them; the Zero, not so much.
8- Persia (Darius I):
It's all about the UA. A great Civ for builders such as myself.
7 - Rome (Augustus Caesar):
Next to England, probably my favourite of the military-focused Civs, in no small part because I love playing wide (or should say 'loved' as it's much harder to do in BNW).
7 - Russia (Catherine):
I have played as Russia exactly once. This was by far the most entertaining Civ game I've ever had. Weirdly I didn't make much use of the uniques (except Siberian Riches and a couple of Kreposts) so I can't really ascribe the experience to the fact that I was Russia. I'd like to play them again.
9 - Siam (Ramkhamhaeng):
Another really strong peaceful Civ, with an immensely helpful UA, a Culture-giving UB and a medieval-era tank of a UU. Not much more to say.
7 - Songhai (Askia):
Another Civ I haven't played as frequently as I ought to have done. I get the impression they're underrated. I imagine the UA is quite nice in BNW with the lack of early-game gold, and I could see them making good use of the new Piety as well.
5 - The Aztecs (Montezuma):
Every time I have ever attempted to play as Montezuma, I have ended up getting bored and not finishing the game. No idea why.
5 - The Iroquois (Hiawatha):
Never tried them, not in a hurry to either.
7 - The Ottomans (Suleiman):
Somewhat situational, but then so are England. Janissaries are great.
MantaRevan
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,541
I don't count a situational start against a civ, because there's no shame in rerolling the map to get something that actually complements the civ you're playing. Every civ has a right to use their UA. It's not like you're rerolling until you get marble and salt. No one should expect the player to try and play the Celts in plains or the Inca in grassland. People treat the reload button like it's toxic, but it's not that bad if you're just trying to play the game.
Suicidekills
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 52
Not sure how they're UA goes obsolete... If there's a forest or jungle in your territory, you can use it as a road. And the bridge thing isn't too big of a deal at least not to me. So you waste one turn moving across a river? Not the end of the world. So maybe u have to build a couple of roads, you're still saving a lot on tile maintenance. And like I mentioned in my previous post I'd usually go liberty with them. Since their bonuses rely on having forests and jungles, I'm gonna want to get as much land with forests and jungles as possible. Why do u think the AI Iroquois goes on a city spamming frenzy?? If there's no forest or jungle around me, I go looking for prime real estate lol. I think forests and jungles are common enough (and grouped together most of the time) that if you can't get at least one city to seriously take advantage of the Iroquois bonuses, you're doing something wrong. And since I'd be going wide and possibly having city locations further away, the extra mobility in forest/jungles is great imo. Also maybe the Iroquois are a peaceful people that don't want to go into foreign territories and rather stay in their nice safe forests/jungles
On another note about comparing Iroquois UA with Carthage's UA, free harbors are awesome. Great UA no doubt but it has it's restrictions. You basically want to put every city on the coast playing as Dido, which isn't preferred all the time except if you're playing archipelago, so you still have to connect those cities using roads. And yay i get to move over mountains!! lol
Ummmmm there's no -10% production they just don't get a 10% production, so the +10 production is still exactly that. I like to think about it in terms of each lumber mill tile, which is 1 food 2 hammers. After scientific theory you get an extra hammer, and with the longhouse you get another hammer. So in total you have 1 food and 4 hammers after scientific theory and longhouse. With 10 lumber mills, that's pretty ridiculous. No wonder why they took away the +10% production. And like I've mentioned previously I'm going to gobble up as much forest as possible to make use of these longhouses and other Iroquois bonuses.
Also like I've mentioned previously my goal as the Iroquois is to claim a lot of land with forests because it's definitely their most important resource so the mohawk warrior fits perfectly with that. On top of their forest and jungle bonuses, if they're defending their own land, they get to move pretty freely with the help of their UA. Now that I think about it the Iroquois have to be one of the most synergistic civs in the game. And how is the swordsman more useless now then before? With the moving of iron to bronze working I would think it'd be more useful.
P.S DAMN YOU NOW I WANT TO PLAY IROQUOIS!!!!! lol
3drawegroeg
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2009
- Messages
- 77
- America (Washington):
6/10 It’s a pretty good civ to play for random map settings, and it sounds like I get more use out of cheap land purchases than most. I kind of obsess about optimal city placements, so cheap tile buys works. The fact that their UU are good but not great doesn’t bother me. A strategy that revolves around teching to super unit and pwning everyone doesn’t excite me.
- Arabia (Harun al-Rashid):
10/10 There is really now downside here. I don’t mean to criticize anyone, but this civ is kind of easy mode. I wouldn’t them again.
- China (Wu Zetian):
- 9.5/10 Only because nothing is as good as Arabia.
- Egypt (Ramesses II):
7/10 I like building wonders and they have a cool crest / color scheme.
- England (Elizabeth):
8/10 I tend to play a large or huge maps so having the extra naval movement is very nice. Bonus spy makes it much easier to play the diplomatic game.
- France (Napoleon):
4/10 I don’t think they’re bad per se. They just kind of bore me. Tons of free culture seemed cheap and double theming bonuses doesn’t seem all that necessary for a culture win. Chateaux are pretty neat but the way that AI France spasm cities with a bazillion chateaux around them has soured me. I’d like for them to give bonus gold when pillaging them.  It’s sad because I love France, but don’t want to play them in the game.
- Germany (Bismarck):
- 4/10 Playable, but why would you with so many better civs around?
-
- Greece (Alexander):
Never played
- India (Gandhi):
Never played
- Japan (Oda Nobunaga):
Never played
- Persia (Darius I):
8/10 Gearing up for epic golden ages is lots of fun for me. Happiness from a basic building is not thrilling, but it’s effective.
- Rome (Augustus Caesar):
6/10 The building bonus is pretty handy, but I haven’t been able to get much use out of the UU. Maybe I’d like them better if I could do early conquest more effectively.
- Russia (Catherine):
Never played
- Siam (Ramkhamhaeng):
Never played
- Songhai (Askia):
5/10
- I actually quite like playing these guys for the pillage based economy, and the maintenance free culture generating temple is nice for a wide empire. The UU is worse than Landsnechts if you ask me. It hardly matters what attack strength against cities is once city defense has been dropped with siege or ranged. Free amphibious promotion is rather pointless. When is an amphibious assault needed?
-
- The Aztecs (Montezuma):
5/10
Much like Songhai, I enjoy playing them but the heals jaguar warriors get seems a bit trivial. Maybe I’m doing it wrong? UB is good for playing tall, but I’d rather annex cities after conquest so I tend to need to keep population low.
- The Iroquois (Hiawatha):
6/10
I have a perverse aversion to chopping so it’s nice that there is a civ that rewards that. I do better at early wars with these guys than most since iron isn’t needed.
- The Ottomans (Suleiman):
7/10
Janissaries kick in at the time I feel like I’m ready for war, and I like jacking other people’s ships!
6/10 It’s a pretty good civ to play for random map settings, and it sounds like I get more use out of cheap land purchases than most. I kind of obsess about optimal city placements, so cheap tile buys works. The fact that their UU are good but not great doesn’t bother me. A strategy that revolves around teching to super unit and pwning everyone doesn’t excite me.
- Arabia (Harun al-Rashid):
10/10 There is really now downside here. I don’t mean to criticize anyone, but this civ is kind of easy mode. I wouldn’t them again.
- China (Wu Zetian):
- 9.5/10 Only because nothing is as good as Arabia.
- Egypt (Ramesses II):
7/10 I like building wonders and they have a cool crest / color scheme.
- England (Elizabeth):
8/10 I tend to play a large or huge maps so having the extra naval movement is very nice. Bonus spy makes it much easier to play the diplomatic game.
- France (Napoleon):
4/10 I don’t think they’re bad per se. They just kind of bore me. Tons of free culture seemed cheap and double theming bonuses doesn’t seem all that necessary for a culture win. Chateaux are pretty neat but the way that AI France spasm cities with a bazillion chateaux around them has soured me. I’d like for them to give bonus gold when pillaging them.  It’s sad because I love France, but don’t want to play them in the game.
- Germany (Bismarck):
- 4/10 Playable, but why would you with so many better civs around?
-
- Greece (Alexander):
Never played
- India (Gandhi):
Never played
- Japan (Oda Nobunaga):
Never played
- Persia (Darius I):
8/10 Gearing up for epic golden ages is lots of fun for me. Happiness from a basic building is not thrilling, but it’s effective.
- Rome (Augustus Caesar):
6/10 The building bonus is pretty handy, but I haven’t been able to get much use out of the UU. Maybe I’d like them better if I could do early conquest more effectively.
- Russia (Catherine):
Never played
- Siam (Ramkhamhaeng):
Never played
- Songhai (Askia):
5/10
- I actually quite like playing these guys for the pillage based economy, and the maintenance free culture generating temple is nice for a wide empire. The UU is worse than Landsnechts if you ask me. It hardly matters what attack strength against cities is once city defense has been dropped with siege or ranged. Free amphibious promotion is rather pointless. When is an amphibious assault needed?
-
- The Aztecs (Montezuma):
5/10
Much like Songhai, I enjoy playing them but the heals jaguar warriors get seems a bit trivial. Maybe I’m doing it wrong? UB is good for playing tall, but I’d rather annex cities after conquest so I tend to need to keep population low.
- The Iroquois (Hiawatha):
6/10
I have a perverse aversion to chopping so it’s nice that there is a civ that rewards that. I do better at early wars with these guys than most since iron isn’t needed.
- The Ottomans (Suleiman):
7/10
Janissaries kick in at the time I feel like I’m ready for war, and I like jacking other people’s ships!
How much are you saving on tile maintenance? Because that's what the UA boils down to: in a best case scenario, you get City Connections faster than it takes to build them, and after the point you would've gotten City Connections anyway, you're saving what? 30 gold per turn? And again, that's best case scenario. You're acting like it's super easy to go out and find a forest ten hexes by ten hexes, but even with the Iroquois start bias this rarely happens.
It's opportunity cost. Everybody else gets a building that adds + 10% production, and the Iroquois don't. In order to make good use of their replacement building at all, you also can't chop forests for the production boost in the early game. Long-term, eventually the Longhouse is worse than the Workshop. The +10% modifier affects specialists and buildings; and the sort of big, well-developed city that could feasibly be working 10 forest tiles in the Information Era when building Spaceship Parts, will with factories and specialists, likely be making more than 100 hammers' worth of production, making a 10% modifier better than a +1 to forest modifier.
Suicidekills
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 52
Ok, I never once said that it was easy. Having a forest ten by ten hexes would be ideal but not necessary. All you need is three forest tiles away from ur next city to have an automatic city connection. Is it as easy as just putting down a coastal city like with Carthage? No, but still. And I don't think forests are as rare as you're making it out to be. I've played plenty of games where there are just acres and acres of forest. Of course like every map it's completely random. Also what you're not accounting for is you're going to be making city connections sooner than any other civ because you might just have to build one road here or there so why not. Plus sure best case scenario you're saving 30 gpt but you're also making money on those city connections. So getting them sooner and cheaper is pretty good not to mention the synergy the UA has with the UU and UB.
Ok, so you're arguement is that towards the end of the game a building built in the medieval era isn't as effective as it's original building?? Should we not account for the production advatages it has in the previous eras before the Information Era?? In the germany game im playing now im on turn 173. My two best cities, which have workshops in them, are giving me +22 hammers and +14 hammers. So that 10% is giving me an extra 3.6 production. If I had longhouses in those two cities instead with lets say at least three forests worked in each of them (which isn't hard at all), thats an extra +6 production. That's already two more production and that's just comparing two cities which could have even more worked forests. So you get this pretty big production bonus, if you play it right, for plenty of turns. Enough turns that I definitely think it's worth it. True you might not want to chop down forests to save those extra turns for your NC, but hey that's decisions u gotta make. Sure calendar luxuries aren't good for the Iroquois, but trapping luxuries are.
1) Can I ask what difficulty level you play on? Your exploitation of the Iroquois seems to require being able to grab lots and lots of land from the outset. I'm usually kept to a max of 6 or so cities before having to go to war.
2) So it seems we agree that the Iroquois UB is a net negative in the late game (worse than +10% production) and a net negative in the early game (needing to keep your forest tiles means you miss out on the production rush from chopping forests AND prevents you from terraforming your environment to micromanage for mines/farms), but a net positive in the mid game (in the Middle Ages, if you've kept enough forests, longhouses produce more hammers than workshops). So I'd venture that that makes the longhouse, for the most part, at best a wash. If you're literally surrounded by nothing but forest, yeah, it's great, but that's like saying Polynesia is the best Civ because it's overpowered on Tiny Islands maps.
2) So it seems we agree that the Iroquois UB is a net negative in the late game (worse than +10% production) and a net negative in the early game (needing to keep your forest tiles means you miss out on the production rush from chopping forests AND prevents you from terraforming your environment to micromanage for mines/farms), but a net positive in the mid game (in the Middle Ages, if you've kept enough forests, longhouses produce more hammers than workshops). So I'd venture that that makes the longhouse, for the most part, at best a wash. If you're literally surrounded by nothing but forest, yeah, it's great, but that's like saying Polynesia is the best Civ because it's overpowered on Tiny Islands maps.
Suicidekills
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 52
1) immortal and you dont necessarily have to grab a lot of land just make sure there's forests there. Six cities is plenty and i dont know if exploitation would be the right word. Im just trying to play them the way i think they should be played.
2) yes, longhouses do gain a net negative towards the end of the game but thats marginal compared to net positive they gain from the point u get them to the point where they would even out which is a good amount of time. Also you're the iroquois, forests are your friend. Why would you want to chop them down?? And ur telling me you chop all ur forests? Is it really that great to chop them? U shave a couple of turns off a wonder at best. U make it sound like its pivotal to chop ur forests down. In the Iroquois case its not good at all. Lumber mills are still in the game right??
2) yes, longhouses do gain a net negative towards the end of the game but thats marginal compared to net positive they gain from the point u get them to the point where they would even out which is a good amount of time. Also you're the iroquois, forests are your friend. Why would you want to chop them down?? And ur telling me you chop all ur forests? Is it really that great to chop them? U shave a couple of turns off a wonder at best. U make it sound like its pivotal to chop ur forests down. In the Iroquois case its not good at all. Lumber mills are still in the game right??
1) I didn't mean "exploitation" like the way people use "exploit" here. I meant use them to the best of their ability.
2) I don't chop all my forests. It can be pivotal when you're in a wonder race or suddenly under attack and need to raise units, so I like having the option. I also like having the option of turning a forest on a hill into a mine if I'm short of production, turning a forest on a river into a farm if I'm short of food, or being able to actually utilize a mine or plantation resource that's on a forest tile. The Iroquois have a much tougher choice when facing these decisions, and basically get a penalty for terraforming their environments.
Are you really arguing the Iroquois are an all-around top-tier civ, or just arguing that they're really fun to play on very foresty maps?
2) I don't chop all my forests. It can be pivotal when you're in a wonder race or suddenly under attack and need to raise units, so I like having the option. I also like having the option of turning a forest on a hill into a mine if I'm short of production, turning a forest on a river into a farm if I'm short of food, or being able to actually utilize a mine or plantation resource that's on a forest tile. The Iroquois have a much tougher choice when facing these decisions, and basically get a penalty for terraforming their environments.
Are you really arguing the Iroquois are an all-around top-tier civ, or just arguing that they're really fun to play on very foresty maps?
Suicidekills
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 52
I'm saying theyre an above average civ and they're focus is on forests and to a lesser degree jungle. Honestly you probably shouldnt chop any forests cus thats the way the civ was designed. Also i doubt ud ever worry bout production with the Iroquois.
Well, I won't disagree further. In my own ranking I gave them a range of 1 - 7 out of 10, depending on how much forest there was. Every game is somewhat map dependent, but I think with the Iroquois it's just a lot more so.
My very first Iroquois game was on Immortal, Standard, Continents Plus and I started in a patch of like 8 forest tiles surrounded by forestless tundra and eventually ice to the north, coast to the east, and grassland and hills to the west and south; no more than two contiguous tiles of forest in any direction until you hit coast or another Civ. Resource-wise, it was actually a great start and I did OK, but the UA and UU were next to useless and the UB was actually much, much worse than the standard building. Maybe I should have re-rolled and I got unfairly soured on the Iroquois, but after losing that game I re-rolled several times and found a lot of unfortunately forest-deficient starts. I eventually did get a vast, thick woodland and it was nigh on overpowered.
The other really geography-based Civs just don't seem to struggle as much with this issue. I've never played a pro-desert Civ and run out of desert, and seafaring Civs always start on the coast. . . though occasionally you get the coastal start that's actually a giant land-locked sea, that's always a kick in the balls and a ragequit. I've never played as the Inca so I couldn't say how they fare rolling hills.
My very first Iroquois game was on Immortal, Standard, Continents Plus and I started in a patch of like 8 forest tiles surrounded by forestless tundra and eventually ice to the north, coast to the east, and grassland and hills to the west and south; no more than two contiguous tiles of forest in any direction until you hit coast or another Civ. Resource-wise, it was actually a great start and I did OK, but the UA and UU were next to useless and the UB was actually much, much worse than the standard building. Maybe I should have re-rolled and I got unfairly soured on the Iroquois, but after losing that game I re-rolled several times and found a lot of unfortunately forest-deficient starts. I eventually did get a vast, thick woodland and it was nigh on overpowered.
The other really geography-based Civs just don't seem to struggle as much with this issue. I've never played a pro-desert Civ and run out of desert, and seafaring Civs always start on the coast. . . though occasionally you get the coastal start that's actually a giant land-locked sea, that's always a kick in the balls and a ragequit. I've never played as the Inca so I couldn't say how they fare rolling hills.
Santa Maria
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2011
- Messages
- 135
I play Rome and Assyria and found that if I ignore their UU and play peacefull I have no problems to get the economy running and get a lot of gold (high gpt).
But when I use their UU and go on warring I get -20gpt. I try to save myself with conquering another city to pillage 120gold to keep me away from going bankrupt. Also everybody hates me for warmongering.
So it turns out the classical era war is really expensive. This takes a lot of fun away for me because I love to build a lot of Legions and Ballistas and go on a rampage.
All the warmongering civs got nerfed especially the ones with early UU.
Therefore I would rate Rome with a 6. Playing peacefully their UA is solid - I can build a strong empire. Go to war with Legions is much harder though. I play Prince and King almost always Rome.
I would be interested how should I wage war with UU of Rome and wont go bankrupt?
But when I use their UU and go on warring I get -20gpt. I try to save myself with conquering another city to pillage 120gold to keep me away from going bankrupt. Also everybody hates me for warmongering.
So it turns out the classical era war is really expensive. This takes a lot of fun away for me because I love to build a lot of Legions and Ballistas and go on a rampage.
All the warmongering civs got nerfed especially the ones with early UU.
Therefore I would rate Rome with a 6. Playing peacefully their UA is solid - I can build a strong empire. Go to war with Legions is much harder though. I play Prince and King almost always Rome.
I would be interested how should I wage war with UU of Rome and wont go bankrupt?
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