Civilization Rankings! Part Two: Downloadable Content Civs

[Pythakoreas]

8.5 - Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II): Arguably one of the best civilizations in the game. Bowman and Walls of Babylon will save you from possible early rushes in multiplayer. Free great scientist is fantastic on any difficulty. GS generation depends - but if you are aiming for a Science victory it works wonderfully.

2 - Denmark (Harald Bluetooth): Needs to be reworked ASAP. The Viking legacy deserves a better Unique Ability, disembarkation bonus? Pillage bonus? If you get XP from pillaging tiles it would be top tier... The Berserkers are boring, and who the hell wants a UU "faster" (yes, faster not stronger!) on crappy tundra tiles?

9 - Korea (Sejong): I could give it a 10 but I would be biased because I'm a native Korean. +2 science is quite powerful when you fill your first specialist slot. The tech booms are always nice. UA+Secularism(Rationalism)+NC=2+2+50%=6 Science/specialist in the mid-game. Trumps Babylonian academies for Great Person generation, happiness and food bonuses on specialist slots (if you go Freedom). You have one of the most overpowered civ in your hands although you have to follow some strict rules to get the most, that is, Tall, High Population, Freedom.

I don't know why UUs are considered weird. Turtle ships are incredibly powerful on defense, and even if I don't play Korea I use Frigates for exploration, faster and endurable. As Sejong you have a higher science output and Navigation becomes available sooner. (At least on lower difficulties) Hwachas are basically multi-purpose Trebuchets great against everything, even with their combat penalty against cities they are still slightly stronger, do the math!

8 - Mongolia (Genghis Khan): Needs a better UA, attacking City-States is useless. Keshik+Khans are the core part of the Mongol war machine. Awesome, awesome.

7 - Polynesia (Kamehameha): I usually don't play wide, in other words never played them. I definitely see the potential in Moais, settling on the oceans before anyone else, founding WC first though. From what I've read they deserve a solid 7.

6 - Spain (Isabella): Situational... the only thing I like is early 500g. Cool-looking units though. I'll give you a 6.

8 - The Inca (Pachacuti): Terrace Farms and Mines are insanely powerful. Above average exploration with extra movement on hills. Mountain bias lets you grab Machu Picchu and Neuschwanstein quite easier.

 

[Petiscator]

9 - Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II)
This one's a beaker mine. Extremely good. Ingenuity is awesome, everyone knows that. Bowmen don't look so great, but you might ignore Construction for longer than you would, so you can focus on other techs. The Walls of Babylon are a great replacement, even though I might not build walls at all.

7 - Denmark (Harald Bluetooth)
Highly underrated. I love the way Denmark is in this game! People say that it needs a buff; I don't think so, but it's ok if you want to give more bonuses to one of my fav civs Well, I like Viking Fury. Found a lake or any body of water? baaaaam extra movement, the siege trick, stuff like that. Good on any type of map that has... water. Yes, even pangaea. Berserker is cool. +1 movement is nice. Now, N. Ski Infantry is probably the most underrated part of this civ. Ok, tundra bonuses aren't good, but they got hill bonuses! They pass by them like a scout! And +25% :c5strenght: on top of them. It has synergy with the UA: disembark a N. Ski Infantry and you got yourself a unit with 5? 6? that can blast through hills. Also, free pillaging from the ua = +25HP.

8.5 - Korea (Sejong)
Amazing UA. I'd give them a 9, but the Turtle Ship... I mean... very good on Archi, but on other types of map? I'm also not an enthusiast about the Hwatch'a either... but that's ok, Scholars of Jade Hall rocks.

6 - Mongolia (Genghis Khan)
This number looks good for them. Very good on Pangaea, but they get worse as the water raises. I love the Keshik, dislike Mongol Terror and think that the Khan is ok. Perhaps I should play them more?

7 - Polynesia (Kamehameha)
They look much better in BNW. I used to dislike them, but now I'm ok with them. Wayfinding is a nice bonuse, the Moai now has a cooler use, but I still hate the Maori Warrior. They just seem bad. Compare it to the Jaguar, I mean.

7 - Spain (Isabella)
Tasty, tasty Spain. If I get this by random, I usually keep playing. 7 Cities of Gold is a lottery, I agree, but it is so... funny! I fancy it a lot. It is nice to go around, exploring, getting a bunch of gold and happiness... yummy! Early game = great. I like the Tercio too. Love the Conquistador's extra 2 sight XD

9 - The Inca (Pachacuti)
This one's amazing, mostly because of the Terrace Farm. everywhere! UA is great too, basically: all your units are scouts, except on forests. Free roads brah. Slinger is kind of meh... but they are a bit better as they upgrade.

 

[msawchuk]

- Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II):8
UU: Bowman [Archer]; The Bowman is the Babylonian Unique Unit, replacing the Archer. This Unit is stronger in combat than the Archer, both offensively and defensively, allowing placement in the front line. The Bowman's improved combat prowess helps ameliorate any concern that it may be quickly overrun.
UB: Walls of Babylon [Walls]; The Walls of Babylon are a Babylonian Unique Building, replacing the standard city Walls. The Walls of Babylon increases a city's Defense Strength by 6 and Hit Points by 100 (both significantly more than standard Walls).
UA: Ingenuity; Free Great Scientist when you discover Writing. Great Scientists generated 50% faster.

Early science from the academy is good, and late science from increased gs generation is great.

- Denmark (Harald Bluetooth):3
UU: Berserker [Longswordsman]; The Berserker is one of two Danish Unique Units, replacing the Longswordsman. This Unit is +1 Movement compared to the Longswordsman and possesses the Amphibious promotion, allowing it to attack onto land from a Coast tile with no penalty.
UU: Norwegian Ski Infantry [Rifleman]; The Norwegian Ski Infantry is one of two Danish Unique Units, replacing the Rifleman. This Unit moves through Snow, Tundra, or Hill at double speed. It also has a +25% combat bonus in Snow, Tundra or Hill terrain if neither Forest nor Jungle is present.
UA: Viking Fury; Embarked units have +1 Movement and pay just 1 movement point to move from sea to land. Melee units pay no movement point cost to pillage.

The UA is really bad, but the UUs are at least almost decent. I like the ski infantry, but it comes very late.

- Korea (Sejong):9
UU: Hwach’a [Trebuchet]; The Hwach'a is extremely effective against enemy land units. It is slow and vulnerable to enemy melee attack; it always should be supported by other units when it's in the field. The Hwach'a must "set up" (1 Movement Point) before attacking.
UU: Turtle Ship [Caravel]; The Turtle Ship is a Korean unique unit. This unit replaces the Caravel. The Turtle Ship has a more powerful attack than the Caravel, and is extremely difficult to destroy. However it may not enter deep ocean hexes outside of the city borders.
UA: Scholars of the Jade Hall; +2 science for all specialists and for all Great Person tile improvements. Receive a tech boost each time a scientific building/Wonder is built in the Korean capital.

The UA helps science a lot without having to do much. The Hwach’a is a good UU. I don't like the Turtle Ship a lot.

- Mongolia (Genghis Khan):7
UU: Keshik [Knight]; The Keshik is a unique replacement for the Knight, available to the Mongols starting in the Medieval Era. Keshiks possess a strong ranged attack and an increased movement rate (5 points total), allowing it to perform hit and run attacks remarkably effectively. If this wasn't enough, the Keshik also acquires promotions at double the rate of other units, and contributes twice the amount of points towards earning Great Generals. These mounted warriors singlehandedly afford Genghis control of the open plains.
UGP: Khan [Great General]; The Khan is a Mongolian Unique Great Person, replacing the standard Great General. The same combat bonuses apply, but the Khan moves at the same rate as the Keshik (5 points per turn) and can heal adjacent units for an additional 15 HP per turn. This beefed up General ensures that his cavalry units will always be in a battle ready state.
UA: Mongol Terror; Combat Strength +30% when fighting City-State units or attacking a City-State itself. All mounted units have +1 Movement.

The are great for getting a domination victory, but that's the only thing that they are good at.

- Polynesia (Kamehameha):3
UU: Maori Warrior [Warrior]; The Maori Warrior is similar to a Great General; however instead of increasing the strength of friendly units, it decreases the strength of adjacent enemy units. Build plenty of these units early for their promotion stays with them as they are upgraded.
UI: Moai [N/A]; Must be built adjacent to Coast, yields +1 Culture. Bonus improved by +1 for each adjacent Moai.
UA: Wayfinding; Can embark and move over Oceans immediately. +1 Sight when embarked. +10% Combat Strength bonus if within 2 tiles of a Moai.

They are nice on archipelago maps, but otherwise they are of very little use.

- Spain (Isabella):8
UU: Conquistador [Knight]; The Conquistador is a multi-purpose unit that is strong both on land and at sea. Replacing the Knight, it is an exceptional scout on land with extra visibility. It also has the ability to found new cities, but only on a foreign continent that does not contain the Spanish capital. In the water, the Conquistador has the defensive embarkation promotion that allows it to defend itself against naval units. It also suffers no penalty when attacking cities, unlike the Knight.
UU: Tercio [Musketman]; The Tercio is one of two Spanish Unique Units, replacing the Musketman. This Unit is stronger in combat than the Musketman and fights at a higher strength against mounted units. The Tercio is more expensive to build however.
UA: Seven Cities of Gold; Gold bonus for discovering a Natural Wonder (bonus enhanced if first to discover it). Culture, Happiness, and tile yields from Natural Wonders doubled.

Even though Spain is dependent on luck, they generally do very well.

- The Inca (Pachacuti):9
UU: Slinger [Archer]; The Slinger is an Ancient Era ranged infantry Unit that can strike foes from afar. This Incan Unique Unit can withdraw before most melee attacks: use it to harass your foes. However the Slinger can be easily defeated if the enemy pins it against obstructions or chases it with fast units.
UI: Terrace Farm [N/A]; Can be built on Hills, yields +1 Food, and +2 Food if a mountain is adjacent to the Terrace Farm.
UA: Great Andean Road; Units ignore terrain costs when moving into any tile with Hills. No maintenance costs for improvements in Hills; half cost elsewhere.

They are on of my favorite civs. The terrace farms are sometimes great, and the UA is always useful unless I'm on archipelago.

 

[Keirador]

- 2 - Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II):

UA: Ingenuity; Free Great Scientist when you discover Writing. Great Scientists generated 50% faster.

Thank for the Free G.S. And then, what? Is it better the UA of Maya? Certainly! At Immortal/Deity, AI always rush Great Library. So 50% X "0" = 0. You have to wait to long for seeing this in action.

So playing Babylon give you a early UU that give you nothing with Construction; a cute but useless UB, and 2 or maybe, maybe 3 G.S.

You are a crazy person, crafted out of a solid crazy interior with a veneer of finished crazy.

Have you actually played Babylon? The free GS is on the way to the National College Beeline. With the 50% boost from the NC, the Academy your GS creates will be yielding 12 science ON ITS OWN. Babylon can be fielding like 40 beakers at a point in the game where the AI's got like 15 - 20. Even at Diety, it means a well-managed Babylon will be in the tech lead super early and will stay there, and if you can't win with a perma-tech lead, get out.

Is it the most interesting or varied strategy? Not really, but it's ridiculously powerful.

 

[Teaf]

7 Babylon - Excellent UA. UU and UB are meh.
3 Denmark - Lackluster and boring. Needs an overhaul so bad.
9 Korea - Best Science leader. Hwach'a is superb, Turtle Ship not so much.
8 Mongolia - Devastating when played properly.
6 Polynesia - Quite average, nothing great about them.
5 Spain - 5 because they can be anywhere from 2 - 8, very luck based.
8 Inca - UB and UA are superb. Never liked their UU that much, never really useful.

 

[Keirador]

FYI, I usually play Immortal or Diety on Standard, Continents Plus. I also typically play with Diplomatic Victory turned off unless I'm planning to warmonger win in the Middle Ages, because otherwise Diplomatic is too easy and too early to make the game any fun.

9.5 Babylon
Babylon has unique units? Who cares? The free GS gets planted as an Academy and has incredible synergy with the National College beeline strategy. The only serious risk that a human player as Babylon could lose to the AI is if you fall in a zergling rush, and the Bowman actually kinda helps with that, since even though composite bowmen are better, early on you need to be on the top of the tech tree.

Same strategy every time until after the National College is up and running, but after that you can pretty much do what you like. Turns out a science lead advances every victory type.

2 Denmark
The UA is a neat little one-trick pony that's certainly fun when it works, but isn't applicable enough to power Denmark through as a conqueror. In terms of Civ design, they really are well-represented as coastal raiders, but (as evidenced by the Vikings not being a major world power) coastal raiding does not a world-leading empire make. Fun to play, tough to win. The Berserker is solid but not game-changing. Go home Ski Infantry. You're drunk.


8 Korea
I'm on the side that anything Korea can do Babylon can do better. People complain that the Babylonian uniques aren't that great, but both of Korea's UUs are actually much, much worse than the units they replace, which is odd. A caravel that can't explore? A trebuchet that can't conquer cities? Sure, Korea's supposed to be defensive, but these UUs come in the freaking Renaissance, and Korea's whole thing is you already have a tech lead. Your units are already superior to your competitors'.

Still though, being a sciencemonger i so powerful that it's easy to win with them, but Korea's actually even less flexible than Babylon. Babylon can eventually go wide if it wants, Korea needs to always go as tall as possible.

7 Mongolia
Keshiks are the single strongest UU in the game.
Mongolia is up there with China as the strongest warmonger in the game, but China's papermaker is a little more flexible and the CKN, being promotable, are more of a gamelong useful unit. Mongolia has one strategy every time: beeline Keshiks, go on killing rampage. It's a supremely boring Civ to play more that once, because the strategy is 100% set in stone, there can be no deviation. Get your Keshiks, kill everyone with Keshiks. If your Keshiks get defeated, or fail to kill everyone, you lose.

1 - 10 Polynesia
Playing Archipelago, Islands, Terra, or a similar map where having settlers able to immediately enter Ocean means you win? Congratulations, you win. Playing pangaea? Stop that. On a reasonably balanced map for Polynesia like maybe Small Continents or Fractals, they're middle of the pack and reasonably versatile, with strengths in both culture and mongering for war.

1 -10 Spain
If you start near enough to quickly settle, say, the Great Barrier Reefs (always two tiles) King Solomon's Mines, Lake Victoria, or another high-yield Natural Wonder or three, Spain is brokenly powerful. If you start on a small continent on which there are no Natural Wonders at all, Spain is brokenly weak. A reasonably fun gamble.

5 Inca
I don't get the love for the Inca. The UA is gonna save the Inca some money and provide a distinct tactical advantage when warmongering, that's not bad but it's not a superpower. The UU is useless, and the UB is typically gonna provide a modest production buff (yes, production: a terrace farm with an adjacent mountain is still not a lot of food compared to like a wheat resource, so the real advantage is that you can put out more hammers while keeping your growth rate the same as it would be anyway). Not bad by any means, but I don't see why they're getting 9s and 10s. I must be missing something here guys, help me out.

 

[AgentTBC]

Spain annoys me because you either start near one of the decent national wonders and win the game or you don't and have a boring, bland, generic grind-it-out game. It's purely luck based unlike some of the other civs.

 

[nimzo28]

You are a crazy person, crafted out of a solid crazy interior with a veneer of finished crazy.

Have you actually played Babylon? The free GS is on the way to the National College Beeline. With the 50% boost from the NC, the Academy your GS creates will be yielding 12 science ON ITS OWN. Babylon can be fielding like 40 beakers at a point in the game where the AI's got like 15 - 20. Even at Diety, it means a well-managed Babylon will be in the tech lead super early and will stay there, and if you can't win with a perma-tech lead, get out.

Is it the most interesting or varied strategy? Not really, but it's ridiculously powerful.

The ONLY advantage of Babylon during 100-150 turns is the free G.S. you gain when discovering Writing. So basically, you play with +6 science during this time.

The other +50% is only speculative / long term. Without Great Library (AI will build it before you at Immortal/Deity) or Oracle (ok this one is easiest), or Porcelain Tower (sometime difficult to build), you have to wait until Education (University) to obtain your first G.S points. Research Lab and Public School grants more G.S. slots but later and at this stage, Great Person's points isn't very important. By the way, AI probably vote (I think they did it in my 10 games at Immortal/Deity BNW games) for Art Funding (Increases generation of Great Writers, Artists and Musicians by 33%. Decreases generation of Great Scientists, Engineers and Merchants by 33%).

Anyway. You know that points required to obtain Great Merchant, Scientist and Engineer increase each time one of those Great People born. If you build 3 W.W. during Ancient and Classic (and Medieval), you have most chance to build a W.W. that give you Great Merchant or Engineer point (I like Temple of Artemis and sometime Pyramids, that grants G.E points and, in a general way, help to give more food to your cities, so more production, more population... more science).

But let's talk about other unique. The Walls? Some people, like Petiscator, said:"The Walls of Babylon are a great replacement, even though I might not build walls at all" but give a "9". And the Archer? Some people, like Enrico Swagolo, said: "horrible archer replacement" but give to Babylon "9". Merciorum said: "The UU is useful but nothing special" but give a "9".Other, like Tachii, said: Pretty crappy UB and UU in general" but give a "8", or black213 said "9 because the UU and UB aren't that good yet still useful, but Babylon is all about the UA".

You said: "Babylon has unique units? Who cares?" but you give 9.5.

I'm sorry, but Babylon is a vanilla Civ if you can't produce some G.S points. So basically you have to play to the top of the tech tree, wishing to build Oracle. If not, you are just waiting until late Medieval, and it's here all your benefit (crappy UU and UB). Compare with other Civ, and you probably finish the game with 3 or 4 more G.S than any other Civ if luck is with you.

I agree: I have to give to them another chance, and I probably can increase my personal rating to a "4". But I think they are very luck dependant, maybe more than Indonesia...

Also: You said:

 

[Keirador]

The ONLY advantage of Babylon during 100-150 turns is the free G.S. you gain when discovering Writing. So basically, you play with +6 science during this time.

The yield on an Academy is +8 science. You beeline for National College (which is a National Wonder, not a World Wonder, so you definitely get it) for +3 beakers and +50% beakers in one city. That means the Academy alone generates 12 beakers once the NC is built (which is the first thing you do with Babylon). The AI, at this point in the game, might very reasonably be generated 15 beakers TOTAL. Even at Deity. The NC rush gives a human player a science advantage in the first place, because the AI doesn't know to do it. That first Great Scientist basically doubles your early science output. With all that crazy science, you follow the top branch of the tech tree to reach Universities LONG before anyone else, unlocking Wonders before anyone else, unlocking Culture buildings to unlock social policies before anyone else, etc., etc. A very early game tech lead snowballs into winning. That's why at Deity, the AI just starts with extra tech. Babylon negates this AI advantage and turns Babylon into the game-long tech leader, and the game-long tech leader is the winner.

The other +50% is only speculative / long term. Without Great Library (AI will build it before you at Immortal/Deity) or Oracle (ok this one is easiest), or Porcelain Tower (sometime difficult to build), you have to wait until Education (University) to obtain your first G.S points. Research Lab and Public School grants more G.S. slots but later and at this stage, Great Person's points isn't very important. By the way, AI probably vote (I think they did it in my 10 games at Immortal/Deity BNW games) for Art Funding (Increases generation of Great Writers, Artists and Musicians by 33%. Decreases generation of Great Scientists, Engineers and Merchants by 33%).

Anyway. You know that points required to obtain Great Merchant, Scientist and Engineer increase each time one of those Great People born. If you build 3 W.W. during Ancient and Classic (and Medieval), you have most chance to build a W.W. that give you Great Merchant or Engineer point (I like Temple of Artemis and sometime Pyramids, that grants G.E points and, in a general way, help to give more food to your cities, so more production, more population... more science).

But let's talk about other unique. The Walls? Some people, like Petiscator, said:"The Walls of Babylon are a great replacement, even though I might not build walls at all" but give a "9". And the Archer? Some people, like Enrico Swagolo, said: "horrible archer replacement" but give to Babylon "9". Merciorum said: "The UU is useful but nothing special" but give a "9".Other, like Tachii, said: Pretty crappy UB and UU in general" but give a "8", or black213 said "9 because the UU and UB aren't that good yet still useful, but Babylon is all about the UA".

You said: "Babylon has unique units? Who cares?" but you give 9.5.

You're right about all of this, but it doesn't matter. Having an Academy before turn 20 is just overpowered. When you trigger that Academy, you've got a Palace (+3 beakers) and, depending on your start location, a city that has probably grown to something like 5 citizens. That's 8 beakers total. So the Babylonian UA is that before turn 20, you double your science. The AI gets a tech bonus in that it starts with more techs than the human player, but it doesn't get a beaker bonus. So you're also at least nearly doubling the AI's science output.

So you're first to Universities, which means you're first to Public Schools, which means you're first to Research Labs. You have a tech lead the whole game. You are the winner.

 

[ahawk]

Since this is under the BNW section of the forums, I'll consider those changes as I rate. In my opinion:

2 - Babylon: An almost immediately obsoleted UU (G&K is at fault for this, since it added composites yet left the Babylonian UU the same), a UB that underwhelms, and a good UA that BNW has made a little less good since early trade routes help catch you up in science. Since BNW, Babylon has taken a slight nerf to the last unique of its that was still very good. The early academy is nice, but not as powerful as it was prior to trade-routes.

5 - Denmark: Iron now appears earlier in BNW, so that helps, but it's still a civ that depends on iron. Berserkers are great, when you can get them, mostly because of the free Amphibious promotion as well as the extra movement point. But the extra movement doesn't carry over on upgrading, so part of their great utility is lost upon turning to muskets. The UA is useful and synergizes well with Berserkers, but is sub-par otherwise. The Ski-Inf is handy for combat in hills, but is nothing special outside of hills (how often do you attack in snow anyways?).

9 - Korea: The most synergistic civ in the game. Hwacha and Turtle Ship both help to... well... turtle up. In the mean time, the multi-part UA is the best UA in the game: extra science for specialists, extra science for great person improvements, and extra science for finishing science buildings and wonders in the capital. It's a civ that is made to defend, turtle up, and push into the late game with the ability to start to really out-tech the AI. The only problem is not having a standard caravel to explore, but BNW's inclusion of the World Congress has greatly mitigated this by allowing Korea to meet everyone when the WC is first founded. Thus, Korea now has hardly any weakness at all in BNW.

6 - Mongolia: The second-most synergistic civ in the game. A Unique Great Person to help a mounted UU that is already aided by a UA that boosts mounted movement. Mongolia's problems are that it is entirely reliant on the strategic resource of horses (not often a problem, but occasionally), that Keshiks don't upgrade well (into cavalry is so-so, into landships is bad), and that conquering CSes is usually something I do once or twice a game (since attacking any more than that can bring a mass DoW). Keshiks are indeed the best UU in the game, but should you get an isolated start, a low-horse start, or get mass DoWed while you have them, Keshiks and Khans will not be enough, especially since Mongolia has no bonuses in the late game besides those against CSes and besides the Khan. Keshiks can win a Deity game when you roll Pangea, get a good number of horses, and have the funds to support your units. But outside of Pangea (and maybe Great Plains and Highlands), they are far more limited by having to embark.

8 - Polynesia: Culture is now tougher to get without several cultural wonders in BNW, as there are no standard-building cultural specialist slots anymore. The Moai UI is very powerful now that culture is tougher to get. Moreover, once Flight is researched and Hotels built, Polynesia becomes perhaps an even better culture contender than before. Accumulate Tourism and watch cities flip to you!

7 - Spain: Still a gamble, the Spanish UA now has more usefulness in several ways. For one, there are more NWs to find, and two that provide +6 yield (food and production, respectively). Secondly, since the AIs now play a little more peacefully, it's a lot easier to settle that free settler you get from finding a NW first. The two UU's are reasonable: the Tercio is a great defense against even Lancers and Cavalry, while the Conquistador is a good scout to throw out there when trying to find everyone to found the WC.

8 - Inca: Like Spain, a bit of a gamble (needing lots of hills adjacent to lots of mountains). But the Terrace Farm is arguably the best UI in the game when built on a hill with at least 3 adjacent mountains, and since G&K, the Terrace Farm gets Irrigation bonuses. The only nerf to the UI since BNW is that Terrace Farms on hills along rivers now get no gold yield. But still a phenomenal UI, and still probably the best. The UA is also a great economic UA, reducing improvement costs on hills to 0 and elsewhere to 50%, and even adding movement through hills bonuses. The only lack-luster part is the UU: an archer that withdraws from melee is not always desirable, and it, like its Babylonian counterpart, is obsoleted very quickly anyways.

 

[Keirador]

Since this is under the BNW section of the forums, I'll consider those changes as I rate. In my opinion:

2 - Babylon: An almost immediately obsoleted UU (G&K is at fault for this, since it added composites yet left the Babylonian UU the same), a UB that underwhelms, and a good UA that BNW has made a little less good since early trade routes help catch you up in science. Since BNW, Babylon has taken a slight nerf to the last unique of its that was still very good. The early academy is nice, but not as powerful as it was prior to trade-routes.

Babylons UA doubles science around turn 20. Trade routes are not a nerf for Babylon, because trade routes help you catch up, they don't pay off at all if you're the tech leader. If you're playing Babylon, and you're not the tech leader well before turn 50, what are you even doing.

 

[nimzo28]

Babylons UA doubles science around turn 20. Trade routes are not a nerf for Babylon, because trade routes help you catch up, they don't pay off at all if you're the tech leader. If you're playing Babylon, and you're not the tech leader well before turn 50, what are you even doing.

Ok Keirador, we make a deal: I give to Babylon another chance (after my current game; Indian, Deity); and you try to play at Deity, so I doubt you are doing it actualy. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think it's impossible to lead Science at Deity. Impossible.

Check this (I refer to this: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ5/difficulties, it's probably not up to date but AI begin with a lot of bonus, it's sure):

At Deity, ALL AI starts with: Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Mining, The Wheel.

So you start behind, 4 tech behind, and if you want to build Great Library, you are 8 turn behind (time to reach Pottery) at the beggining of the game. Then, AI already has a second Settler. They don't suffer unhappiness, so they build a second city by turn 5, 6... max 10. Second city = more production, and more science...

Then, they have Workers, ready to give to them improvement like farm (more food, so faster grow = more production and science; or mine = more production; or chopping forest = production boost).

How could you pretend you can reach the lead in tech at Deity? By finding Pottery and then Writing in Ancient Ruin?

So probably that Babylon is strong in a multiplayer game, because on paper, Babylon is a top 4 scientific Civ.

But at Deity, against AI, you are late in tech from the start of the game until...

Sure, the first part of Babylon's UA give you a boost, but with two "useless" UB/UU (you said that yourself), it doesn't deserve 9.5. Your rate is 9.5. In my word, 9.5 = "perfect". I think I have the right to counter balance your rating and giving to them "2": Useless UU, useless UB, half UA strong, half UA situational. Ok; if you give to Babylon "7", I'll increase my rating to "3.5"... maybe "4".

By the way, all this is ridiculous, because nobody give the same rating; rating find his root in perception, personal taste, and experience.... Did Germany deserve a rating of "1", where during ALL the game, you spend less money for your army? Some people think so... and it's not my business.

 

[local_hero]

OK, so I decided to rate some civs too. I play Emperor difficulty. Here goes:

7 - Babylon: OK, a lot of discussion about them being good or not, but I think they're pretty decent. At higher level I can imagine its hard to get any GS points, but you will get the NC very quickly and I think that's valuable. I think the UB is good, though a bit situational. And I actually like the UU, because it's much cheaper to produce than the Comp bow and not a lot weaker. So I often delay researching that tech. But as someone else thought, I think they're a very dull civ to play. Only played them once or twice.

4 - Denmark: Their UA is so much fun on a watery map. It's like the Persian UA if you have enough movement points when your disembark your siege units: move, set up and bombard! Those coastal cities will fall quickly, especially with a decent naval support But I'm not really a warmonger though, so I struggle to make the best out of it. I can't really rate the free pillaging either as I haven't used them enough. The Berserker though is a pretty poor unit, I think. It would be a great unit if their extra movement stayed on upgrade. The Ski Infantry is not very good either. How often are you warring in tundra and snow? So it's really just combat bonus in non-forrested hills. I wish they were better, even as a Swede. ;-)

9 - Korea: Great UA! I love specialists! Especially if you get the statue of liberty, the extra +2 science from the Rationalism policy and the specialists policies in the Freedom tree, which I always do with Korea. Very versatile civ I think, can do a lot. The Hwacha is decent, but I don't feel any love for the Turtle Ship. I don't think I have ever had to defend from a naval attack with Korea, so that's probably why, because otherwise the limitation to coastal hexes is such a nuisance.

8 - Mongolia: I don't like domination civs with one exception, Mongolia. The Keshik is the best UU and the Khan fits perfectly with the Mongolian playstyle. Their UA though, is not as strong, but it shouldn't be either as they would otherwise be OP? Dunno if the UA helps you bully city states, but I always do to upgrade all those horsemen and chariot archers you have upon hitting chivalry. The Keshik has a long lifespan, but if you can't force your way into the lead before they obsolote, you have a rough life ahead as the Mongols since they have little else to offer.

4- Polynesia: Hate the Polynesian AI. Don't fancy playing them myself either. The UA is nice but dull, IMO. Ocean faring triremes is fun for about two seconds. And I don't seem to roll decent starting locations with them either, since you can't build moais on luxuries, strategic or bonus resources. And I always get a wheat, stone, whatever on a coastal tile so I can't chain them together for high culture output. Mega frustrating limitations. The Maori warrior is unspectacular.

7 - Spain: Good UUs and a potentially game winning UA. Can be a frustrating if you don't have any NW on your continent or a really bad one which you are the second to discover. Although you are often, at least, get some bonus happiness in the start plus 100 gold. But, since BNW, I think that NWs are spawning much more often near city states. And I hate it. Especially when playing Spain. And I don't know what type of map you should play to get most use out of the Conquistador? Is there a map script where you can get larger bodies of unsettled land that are not reachable pre-Astronomy?

9 - Inca: My favourite civ. Amazing UA, amazing UI. The UA helps you explore faster, saves you gold and you can absolutely spam those roads! I often build extra roads in hills. My army will get anywhere very quickly, and it costs nothing. The UI gives you more options where to settle and its easy to create high population cities which can build the observatory. So the Inca has free gold, often extra science and extra production. They have a hills bias, so you are quite unlucky if you don't get any. And nobody wants to settle that hilly terrain but you. The UU is decent, but don't escort civilian units with them. I've done that, and it wasn't fun. Even though not great, is fits with the rest of the civ. Attacking a slinger in the Incas home turf, the hills, is very difficult. They obsolete quickly though, because the Terrace Farm come with the same tech as Comps, and you want those Terrace Farms... And yeah, the UA is also a useful when warring...

 

[Keirador]

Ok Keirador, we make a deal: I give to Babylon another chance (after my current game; Indian, Deity); and you try to play at Deity, so I doubt you are doing it actualy. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think it's impossible to lead Science at Deity. Impossible.

At Deity, ALL AI starts with: Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Mining, The Wheel.

So you start behind, 4 tech behind, and if you want to build Great Library, you are 8 turn behind (time to reach Pottery) at the beggining of the game. Then, AI already has a second Settler. They don't suffer unhappiness, so they build a second city by turn 5, 6... max 10. Second city = more production, and more science...

Then, they have Workers, ready to give to them improvement like farm (more food, so faster grow = more production and science; or mine = more production; or chopping forest = production boost).

How could you pretend you can reach the lead in tech at Deity? By finding Pottery and then Writing in Ancient Ruin?

So probably that Babylon is strong in a multiplayer game, because on paper, Babylon is a top 4 scientific Civ.

But at Deity, against AI, you are late in tech from the start of the game until...

Sure, the first part of Babylon's UA give you a boost, but with two "useless" UB/UU (you said that yourself), it doesn't deserve 9.5. Your rate is 9.5. In my word, 9.5 = "perfect". I think I have the right to counter balance your rating and giving to them "2": Useless UU, useless UB, half UA strong, half UA situational. Ok; if you give to Babylon "7", I'll increase my rating to "3.5"... maybe "4".

I'm in the middle of a Deity Byzantine Religion/Tourism game that I appear to be losing at the moment, so I just quickly set up a Deity Babylon game to prove my point. Ancient Ruins are turned off so that there's no tech-hut popping shenanigans. Archipelago and No Barbs because, again, I'm just demonstrating a point about science. I didn't bother expanding, no long-term strategic objectives, just "Next Turned" for 45 minutes while watching TV.

The first attachment is my settings on Turn 1. As you can see, Deity, Archipelago, No Ancient Ruins, blahdiblah.

The second attachment is my starting location. Lots of luxury resources since we did Legendary Start (so all Capitals get lots of luxury resources), but honestly it's not a great start for this experiment. I'm not going to need that many luxes in the <100 turns I'll be playing. The mountain start would be great if I was going to finish this game, but if I can't be the tech leader by the time Observatories come along, I lose the debate. The Stone, Sheep, and Cattle aren't useful to me since I'm beelining Philosophy for National College, I'm not researching the techs needed for those tile improvements. What I really need is some wheat to put a farm on, or even grassland to put a farm on. With such a bitty river, only four hexes are freshwater-adjacent: one is a mountain, one is my city, one is a hill with sheep and one is grassland with cows. No farms for me.

Even worse, there's no good place to set up my Academy. I can either put it on a hill, where to work it I'll be missing out on population growth, or put it on a luxury or bonus resource and lose out on that benefit. I decide I'll put it right on the cattle, since I'm not researching animal husbandry right away anyhow.

I beeline Writing and my GS pops at turn 20 on the sheep hill, meaning I can't settle him as an Academy until turn 21. On turn 21, my science goes from 6 (3 from population, 3 from Palace) to 14. England, my neighbor, has two cities with a combined population of 6, for a science total between 9 and 12 (if she has libraries in both cities, which I very very very much doubt). If she's at 9, my bpt is now 55% higher than hers.

At turn 29 I meet Korea, damn. He's the tech leader and his population is huge, 14 total. With a Palace, his bpt is 17. However, I now have a population of 4 and a library, so our bpt is tied at 17.

I took another screenshot at Turn 43. I'm last in science, well behind the leader and the average, but my bpt is now 21, nearly 40% of which is coming from my Academy.

At turn 53 I complete the National College, for +3 bpt and +50% bpt. That Academy is now producing 12 bpt, which is what a size 8 city with a library would be putting out. My total bpt is 36.

This is the entire extent of my plan for this game. If I were playing this game to the end, I would neglect the bottom of the tech tree and race toward Education, and while I'm sure I would be "ahead" of all other civs in terms of total technological advancement taking into account that researching Education requires several times more beakers than researching Archery, I couldn't think of any way to prove my technological leadership with a screenshot. We've just got the Demographics screen, which shows technological leadership purely in the terms of numbers of technology researched rather than taking into account the difficulty of researching different techs.

So I just randomly select technology and Next Turn it for a few minutes while watching Breaking Bad. I take technological leadership by Turn 66, having double my tech progress since Turn 43.

The last screenshot is my "empire" at Turn 66, when I attain global technological superiority. I'm building the Hanging Gardens just because it was big and I didn't want to bother selecting anything to actually produce since my plan here was just to click "Next" until I was the tech leader.

So. I think we can definitively say it is not "impossible" to lead science at Deity. If you're Babylon, it's not even particularly hard. I 100% phoned this is.

 

[Keirador]

The main issue with these votes is that they are entirely depending on what you are playing. If you are playing against the ai, Babylon's tech boost is amazing. If you are playing against Babylon in multiplayer you park mounted units near him and keep pillaging that single tile his entire civ is built around.

Babylon isn't a perfect Civilization, but when it does start rolling, it gets very hard to stop.

Ha! I never thought of that. Yeah that would completely suck.

That's why I think it's important that people mention how they play when they do their rankings. I don't usually play multiplayer, just the occasional PBEM, and the AI's not clever enough to do that.

 

[Keirador]

Nimzo, regarding my earlier point about being the tech leader by around turn 50, even though it took me to turn 66 in this game, I stand by the point depending on how you define "leader." It took me to turn 66 to amass more total technologies than anyone else, but if you're considering the tech "leader" to be the person who is furthest along in any branch of the tech tree, I was probably already "leading" when I popped Philosophy (the AI likes to go broad instead of deep into the tech tree), and when the National College got built on turn 53 was when my science output really started to blow everyone else's away. To equal my bpt of 36, another Civ would need a total population of 33, or a total population of 22 with libraries in all cities. Not gonna happen. If I had beelined the top of the tech tree for Universities and Observatories while setting up a second city with the express purpose of trade routing food into my National College-havin' Capital, my bpt growth would have just kept steadily outpacing the AI's, to the point where I'm unlocking new Wonders and Units earlier and earlier and earlier, meaning even if the AI has a huge production advantage, my scientific lead time still means I nab all the best Wonders, unlocking new trade routes faster than anyone, can promote my units into the strongest things around. . .

As Babylon, if the AI doesn't kill you early, they never will.

 

[ToodleElNoodos]

Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II): 7
In Vanilla and G&K, they were amazing. Their UU and UB helped in the warmonger times, and having +8 Science from the GS meant you would always be in a tech lead. However, in BNW, they're an early game and late game civ. With less war, their UU isn't as mandatory and neither is their UB. The UA helps them get rolling, but they won't pick up until the end, when they finally get their first University. Giving them a 7 for being reliable.

- Denmark (Harald Bluetooth): 4
While they're suppose to excel at attacking amphibiously, ships are always more effective in creating a landing zone. Maybe if they lowered the maintenance or some sort of gimmicky way of massing Berserkers, they'd be more awesome. Other than that, they don't really have anything special.

- Korea (Sejong): 8
Unlike Babylon, Korea is reliable, stable, and grows in power the further you go. You're rewarded for using specialists, and the larger your city becomes, the better. The units help in protection, but not much else to say. You have a lot of options though with Korea, not particularly needing to go for a Science Victory.


- Mongolia (Genghis Khan): 7
Reliable conqueror. Set out with your Keshiks and Khans, displaying the might of the Steppes. Diplomacy victors need to watch out. The AI sucks with'em, but I think they're solid.

- Polynesia (Kamehameha): 7.5
Exploration civ with great advantages in meeting city-states and other civs first. This is important as it gives them a strong diplomatic boost in meeting different folks and having more trade access/research agreements before other civs, and with such an early access to the city-states can rack up some nice gold and influence through quests. Nice and solid victory option, awesome at turtling (with Moai's). Again, a very solid and reliable civ. They do have an edge with getting the World Congress.

- Spain (Isabella): ?
It's Spain. *shrug* If I had to, I'd give them a 4. They are AMAZING with a natural wonder, but without it...they're pretty meh.

- The Inca (Pachacuti): 9
I don't care what special powers other civs get, nothing beats the two most fundamental resources: and . Their turtling ability is outstanding, and a strong defense is a powerful offense.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

7 - Babylon:
Strong early game, but loses a bit of steam as the game progresses.

2 - Denmark:
This Civ fits the "coastal raid" theme, but it is TOTALLY not for me. Two UU and a water oriented UA are basicially everything I DO NOT WANT from a Civ. In fact I have only recently finished a game with them to get the achievement - and will probably never ever touch them again.

9 - Korea:
This Civ basicially allows you to play the specialist economy from Civ 4. The UU are "okay" and "meh, but the UA is just fantastic. I consider them to be one of the best Civs in the game and certainly one with a very unique playstyle.

6 - Mongolia:
A decent warmonger Civ that is heavily focused on mobile units. The UA is "meh" imho, but the UUs are great. Khans are really cool.

5 - Polynesia:
Water oriented, probably buffed with BNW, but again not my style. The UA is good, the UI interesting and certainly powerful if your island has the right shape, the UU is decent enough. Probably really cool for those who love water maps, but I would actually pick Indonesia over them.

3 - Spain:
Random, random, random. What else is there to say? Oh, yes, 2 UUs, so again not my taste. But at least they offer some interesting stuff like settling oversea.

8 - Inca:
Another great Civilization that offers a lot of versatility and supports my defensive attitude. The UA is great - the hill movement bonus is a fantastic boon troughout the game. The UU is nice if you can upgrade it, the UI was fantastic in G&K, but lost some of its charm with trade routes. Still, one of my favorite Civs.

 

[Leviat]

I'll rate these for single-player games.

Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II): 9
Great civ.
-How anyone could play a game with them and not believe them to be a top-tier civ is beyond me. Argument has been made many times in this thread already. Early Academy=unis first=pub schools first= research labs first= early science win. And they'll produce a couple extra GS throughout the game, which means you have a couple extra GS to bulb at the end of the game/strategically to get Plastics/Satellites.

Denmark (Harald Bluetooth): 3
As is, a bad civ.
-Berserkers are powerful and no cost to pillage is nice, but overall they are underwhelming compared to other civs. If they replaced to useless Ski Infantry with a unique naval unit then Denmark would be very good on water maps.

Korea (Sejong): 9
Great civ.
-Science is King in any game, and Korea generates a boatload of science once specialist buildings start coming out. And don't underestimate the science bonus of building science buildings/wonders in the capital. It can seem small, but you're knocking a lot of turns off your game by building library/uni/pub schools/PT/Oxford/research labs. I put Korea equal to Babylon.

Mongolia (Genghis Khan): 6
Above-average civ.
-Like most War civs, I find them great for multiplayer with friends but less good for single-player. Also, they are a bit terrain dependent. Keshiks + Khans are the best warring combo in the game on open terrain, but their utility decreases the more rough terrain there is (not saying they aren't still powerful, just less so).

Polynesia (Kamehameha): 4
Below-average civ.
-Good on water maps, mostly useless everywhere else. And even on water maps, I'd rather be Indonesia, and maybe even Portugal, Venice, or England. Moai is pretty good going for a culture win, but there are better culture civs. ALso, the UU is terrible and Moai don't make up for that. Good civ on water maps, but below-average overall.

Spain (Isabella): 7
Above-average civ.
-Is it just me, or are there more natural wonders since BNW? I give Spain a 4 if they don't pop out near a NW, and a 10 if they do. Put them together and you get a 7 If you don't pop out near a nw, the Conquistador gives you a decent chance of settling near one later in the game, but mid-game cities just aren't as useful as early cities. I used to rate them lower, but I have been finding more natural wonders since BNW.

The Inca (Pachacuti): 9
Great civ.
-Another powerhouse civ. Like Babylon and Korea, UU is meh, but UA and UI are phenomenal. Incan cities always gross to enormous sizes and have good production. Plus the hill UA means workers get improvement built quicker, and early comp box rushes are even more effective (can move onto a hill and fire in the same turn!). Because of the hill start bias, there tend to be mountains nearby (tell me if this is different from other people's experience) so there are observatories in most cities, and science really gets going mid-late game.

Top-Tier: Babylon, Korea, Inca
Mid-Tier: Spain Mongolia
Low-Tier: Denmark, Polynesia.

 

[Gucumatz]

5 - Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar II):
- Always ranked as one of the most powerful civs, I have no desire to play it really ever though because of its style. Feels more vanilla than many vanilla civs, powerful though. So vanilla imo, that it actually acts as a significant minus for me even though it is a strong civ

4 - Denmark (Harald Bluetooth):
Doesn't do anything better than any other civ, but the embarkation/movement can be really nice on archi maps. Lakes are your friend as Denmark, unfortunately both UUs are mediocre now since combat changes have been done. Berzerkers/NWSKIs are poor unique units in general

7 - Korea (Sejong):
A powerful civ, tech is still the most important aspect of the game. I personally don't like the tech civs as much though as they aren't as fun to me, but no one can deny its one of the most powerful. Thousands of people voted after GK came out and voted the top 3 civs in this order: 1. Korea, 2. Inca, 3. Babylon. Korea is more fun for me to play with than Babylon, but no where as fun as the Inca

5 - Mongolia (Genghis Khan):
Keshiks are ok - amazing in singleplayer but only a shadow against Camel Archers in Multiplayer and always MP is the true test for any civ. The Khan is decent, but with HP changes its no longer what it once was and the UA is still terrible.

5 - Polynesia (Kamehameha)
Early embarkation is incredibly underrated. A better singleplayer civ than MP civ though

7 Spain (Isabella):

Incredibly OP in various situations, so much so its not fun. In multiplayer people often work together to remove spains and in NQ people often reroll when someone gets Spain as its a broken civ

10- The Inca (Pachacuti):

Pretty much ranked as the top civ or top 5 by anyone ever.

When playing Deity/competitive Multiplayer in NQ I would prefer to always have the Inca over any of the other civs. The most powerful, flexible, ready for anything civ in game.