Civilization VI talks to me

My intelligence or Paradox aside, I have yet to see a solid argument that Civilization 6 will not be an underwhelming game.

We already know Civ VI will be based on Civ V BNW.

Since Civ V BNW was a clearly a complete disaster for you, anything remotely similar will of course turn out to be an underwheliming game, to say the least.
In that case you already have your answer, and there is no way anyone will ever be able to convince you otherwise.

If Civ V BNW seemed like a step in the right direction from Civ V Vanilla, and you like the traditional Civ formula (4x rather than grand strategy, alternative reality rather than history simulator) then everything we know is pretty exciting.

-No feature stripping from BNW.
-More Uniques per Civ
-Leader Agendas
-Districts
-Culture tree
-Goverment types

Just to list a few that seem quite interesting. (I'm sure you are perfectly aware there is a Feature list thread posted in this forum)

So, to sum things up.

You like Civilization games and consider Civ V BNW a decent enough game and a step in the right direction from Civ V Vanilla = All evidence points to Civ VI being a great game for you to enjoy many many hours.

You dislike Civilization games (hail Paradox/Creative Assembly/other!) or consider Civ V BNW a unbridgeable disaster = All evidence points to a very, very underwhelming experience if you decided to try out the game. I thinks avoiding it would be the best course of action for you.
 
I feel very safe in saying that civ VI will be less of a disappointment at launch than Civ V.

Civ V was fun even though it had faults, Civ VI will also be fun and doubtless have faults.
I love EU4 and have almost put as much time on it now as Civ V. It takes a lot of effort to get into but it is fun. Both are very different. Neither games are intelligent. How you use to mechanics to work the game is intelligent and you can do that at either. and more time and effort has been, and continues to be, put into Eu4 to improve balance and how systems work together. We can only hope firaxis will extend that kind of decency and support to civ VI

Also guys please don't let him bait you. He's clearly enjoying his little moment in the sun and it's perfectly OK to look at him and clap when he does a flip, but right now he's just sitting there in his cage picking his nose and he's harmless.
 
We already know Civ VI will be based on Civ V BNW.
So, to sum things up.

You like Civilization games and consider Civ V BNW a decent enough game and a step in the right direction from Civ V Vanilla = All evidence points to Civ VI being a great game for you to enjoy many many hours.

You dislike Civilization games (hail Paradox/Creative Assembly/other!) or consider Civ V BNW a unbridgeable disaster = All evidence points to a very, very underwhelming experience if you decided to try out the game. I thinks avoiding it would be the best course of action for you.

Civ5 had many promising features. Many. BNW fixed some of these issues. A quite heroic effort, but BNW was a band-aid, not a fully fledged fix. Then came Beyond Earth. Based on the same broken mechanics that it inherited from Civ5. And now comes Civ6, with no word on these core mechanics being fixed.

By the way, I'm not telling you anything new. There were literally hundreds of posts on this topic for the last six years.
 
My intelligence or Paradox aside, I have yet to see a solid argument that Civilization 6 will not be an underwhelming game.

I've seen plenty of arguments for why civ6 will be great. Civ6 appears to be bringing some really positive innovations to the game like a civics tree separate for the tech tree, customizable governments, eurekas to boost techs that match your playstyle, builders instead of workers, more involved city-states, embedded units, and AI agendas.

But at the end of the day, it all comes down to everyone's preconceived biases. If you prefer Paradox games and are predisposed to believe that civ6 will be "dumbed down" then you will find arguments to validate that notion no matter what.
 
By the way, I'm not telling you anything new. There were literally hundreds of posts on this topic for the last six years.

If nothing you are saying is new, and there are literally hundreds of posts on this topic, why did you feel the need to create a new one?
 
There's a difference between something being rushed and something badly designed from the start. Case in point: X-Com was rushed (probably because Solomon had to start over). Civ V and derivates are just badly designed.

Well, I agree with you there on the game being badly designed. Although, I do think that Civilization 5 was rushed, as well.

All is not lost, though. It looks like Ed Beach has recognized some of the flaws with the previous iteration and has listened to the fans of the franchise by borrowing from CBP (Vox Populi) in ditching the terrible global happiness mechanic. Also, the awful 1 UPT is being at least modified because Ed Beach knows that carpets of doom and traffic jams are no fun at all. Since you'll be able to do at least limited stacking, I'm sure modders will be able to make further necessary changes, in the future. Those are the two worst mechanics in Civilization 5 and they recognized that.

So, I am optimistic for the future. Civ VI, to me, is not looking like a Civilization 5 clone but it appears that they are steering away from it. Perhaps gradually but they are definitely doing it.
 
I mean, technically everything that differentiates different units can be considered gear, so are we just building "human" units and combining them with weapons? Do we get to build robot units and give them gear in the future era?
 
Game of EU4: Fabricate a claim, conquer, make core. Fabricate a claim, conquer, make core.
EU4 A.I. very very dumb and has loads of cheats like not paying at all maintenance for any forts!
Some nations like native americans are very half-baked and almost literally unplayable.

Just because a game has more mechanics than Civ doesn't mean it's tailor made for Stephen Hawking to play, Paradox games have all very gamey mechanics and are as abstract as Civ games. I say it's more like a snob myth. Besides the genres are way different, Vic2 and Eu4 are not 4x.

I own many Paradox titles and they are classics but they have been collecting dust for a while.. Civ 6 on the other hand? I'm super pumped.
 
But at the end of the day, it all comes down to everyone's preconceived biases.

I think that at the end of the day it all comes down to if the AI will be able to handle all those cool improved and new mechanics. If it does... then biased or not, one will enjoy it greatly. I'm biased all the time, about many things, that doesn't stop me from changing my mind if my biases are proven wrong.
 
You're the type of person who is guaranteed to dislike the game after playing it for 10 minutes on release, as you've made up your mind that it's garbage and that's that. A forum is a place for discussion. There's no discussion to be had here. Would you like us to discuss your preconceived contempt?

Moderator Action: Please don't accuse other posters of having already made up their mind
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
So yes, you’re absolutely right to conclude that we dropped all pretense that this is anything but a casual builder game. You will be very excited to learn that, just like in Beyond Earth, you can continue to build city improvements that provide +1 to some meaningless resource and improve tiles that provide a +1 to some other meaningless resource that, when combined, lead to some arbitrary convoluted-yet-shallow network of decisions that will eventually win you the game.

Out of curiosity, if you object to this, why are you hanging around the Civ boards at all?

Every Civ game I've played since I first picked up Alpha Centauri has essentially involved providing +X to some meaningless resource in a combination that leads to some arbitrary convoluted-yet-shallow network of decisions that will eventually win me the game.

Oh, and the AI's been pathetic since Alpha Centauri, too.

And Alpha Centauri's developers also wasted their time on Wonder Movies that did nothing more than provide atmosphere.

If you actually objected to weak AI and the designers spending resources on flavor over mechanics, you would never have stayed through Civ 3, let alone be here at all after the launch of Civ 5.

Pretending that the things you listed are unique to this iteration of Civ or a new trend in the franchise's design is misguided at best. Even map size has never been great; larger maps usually have had to have cutting edge (for the time) computers or face extreme lag and sometimes even crashes.
 
Bibor, I may be mis-remembering, but I thought you have been quite a fan of Civ5? Was that the case and have it simply grown a bit old on you, or did you always think Civ5 wasn't that great?
 
@Bando & Camkiaze

I started to dislike many of the CIV features I got introduced to EU4. Incidentally, this has nothing to do with EU4 by itself. I don't want CIV to be an EU4 clone at all. What EU4 proved, however (and please don't nitpick stuff like fort maintenance or naval attrition) is that CIV should be designed in a way that it can be well played by an AI. I know this is an old example, but take HOMM3 combat AI for example. It took some time to actually top the AI in decision making, because the AI knew all the rules and applied them. Was the combat boring for a human player? No.

Civ5+ feature too many game mechanics that the AI can't cope with. Not really. And their answer to this solution was either artificially restraining the human player (which is terrible) or revamping the mechanic completely (which is good).

Combat and unit movement
If the AI can't deal with hex-based 1UPT combat, then ditch the whole concept. Why not? Re-introduce armies. The AI can handle moving armies around. There are various alternatives out there, some almost as old as me. Don't take these examples literally, please.

Centurion:
Spoiler :
centurion-defender-of-rome_14.gif


Heroes of Might and Magic 3:
Spoiler :
REFeWGF.jpg


Battle Isle:
Spoiler :
Battle%20Isle%20(with%20Data%20Disk%201%20addon)_1.png


The combat is so slow currently that even a separate "combat minigame" would make the game run faster, even in multiplayer. And air support could be easily added as a feature like "if within X tiles of an airbase with X airplanes, add them to the minigame".


Map size
The map is too small. The number of hexes should be like 4 times as much, or perhaps even more. Again, not a problem if AI moves only armies across the map. It would also allow for "passive units" like fortifications or minefields to be added to the map. It would also allow unique terrain features like mountain passes, canals, rivers that can be navigated by ships etc.

Number of civs
I watched the new BE expansion diplomacy. And I really like what they did there. But the main issue with diplomacy is that there are simply too few civs on the map to make it relevant, especially if you play on a 6-8 player map (small/normal). Have a civ game with 20-30 civs on a normal sized maps and introduction of "pact victories" would make it oh so more challenging and fun. And so we make a full circle to...

The builder segment
I greatly actually disagree with the concept of "terrain features" like citrus or iron. As already proven by Civ6 itself, this is a concept that eventually has to go. Land should have features like "fertile soil" or "wetplains" or "granite" or "pine forest" like in SMAC. And if this is the case, you could also ditch the whole concept of "this building adds +1 to food". What if instead workers could plant Wheat on fertile soil, while the granary just "unlocks" the limit on Wheat fields? This way you could have whole civs specializing in certain goods, resources, trading them away, replacing them with other resource types as the ages go by. What if by the late industrial revolution you replace Wheat on Fertile soil with Soybeans or Oil Fields? Why Not? in That case a Refinery building would not add +20% to production but convert X crude into gasoline.

This is, again, nothing new. Sim City 4 was a terrible game, but had its moments. One of these was the terrain resources and the concept of this economy. Why not steal from SC4? This specific idea was awesome.


***

My biggest gripe with Civ5+ is that it isn't really a civ game. Because there is no change. Everything is basically just upgrading what you already built. in CIV4 at least the terrain looked completely different. You could literally see the change of ages. Industrial revolution was railroads, mines everywhere (or windmills!), less farms, more cottages. That transformation was even more drastic in SMAC. Forests or fungus everywhere, or specialized cities, vast fields of solar collector, heavy borehole cities. It was so exciting to change the landscape your civilization (type) thrives in.
 
@Bibor, I'm afraid you are going to be disappointed.

From what we can extrapolate from the press releases, articles and videos, it certainly seems Ed and his team have a different vision for Civilization VI than you. Probably a less ambitious one, we'll see.

I think you make some very valid points, but I wouldn't change anything i've heard of Civ VI for any of your ideas.
 
Civ5+ feature too many game mechanics that the AI can't cope with. Not really.
I have to agree with you here. I hope they learned their lesson for Civ6 and adjusted the mechanics and/or AI accordingly.

Combat and unit movement
If the AI can't deal with hex-based 1UPT combat, then ditch the whole concept. Why not? Re-introduce armies. The AI can handle moving armies around. There are various alternatives out there, some almost as old as me. Don't take these examples literally, please.

Centurion:
Spoiler :
centurion-defender-of-rome_14.gif


Heroes of Might and Magic 3:
Spoiler :
REFeWGF.jpg


Battle Isle:
Spoiler :
Battle%20Isle%20(with%20Data%20Disk%201%20addon)_1.png


The combat is so slow currently that even a separate "combat minigame" would make the game run faster, even in multiplayer. And air support could be easily added as a feature like "if within X tiles of an airbase with X airplanes, add them to the minigame".
I believe Call to Power had something like that. I agree with you on this point also. A minigame would be much better provided it helped the AI and reduced turn times. But I believe what they are doing for 6 (corps/armies and support units) is a step in the right direction.

Map size
The map is too small. The number of hexes should be like 4 times as much, or perhaps even more. Again, not a problem if AI moves only armies across the map. It would also allow for "passive units" like fortifications or minefields to be added to the map. It would also allow unique terrain features like mountain passes, canals, rivers that can be navigated by ships etc.

Number of civs
I watched the new BE expansion diplomacy. And I really like what they did there. But the main issue with diplomacy is that there are simply too few civs on the map to make it relevant, especially if you play on a 6-8 player map (small/normal). Have a civ game with 20-30 civs on a normal sized maps and introduction of "pact victories" would make it oh so more challenging and fun. And so we make a full circle to...
Not so sure about these suggestions. While I enjoy huge maps, they make the game much longer, and exponentially exacerbate any inefficiencies the game might have. Also, the changes you are proposing could easily lead to the game being a confusing mess if not implemented properly. I'd rather the game had less well-implemented features but a lot of them, but poorly balanced.

The builder segment
I greatly actually disagree with the concept of "terrain features" like citrus or iron. As already proven by Civ6 itself, this is a concept that eventually has to go. Land should have features like "fertile soil" or "wetplains" or "granite" or "pine forest" like in SMAC. And if this is the case, you could also ditch the whole concept of "this building adds +1 to food". What if instead workers could plant Wheat on fertile soil, while the granary just "unlocks" the limit on Wheat fields? This way you could have whole civs specializing in certain goods, resources, trading them away, replacing them with other resource types as the ages go by. What if by the late industrial revolution you replace Wheat on Fertile soil with Soybeans or Oil Fields? Why Not? in That case a Refinery building would not add +20% to production but convert X crude into gasoline.
I like this idea although it is so far removed from anything Civilization ever was that I'm not sure it would still even be the same game... Also: I highly doubt the AI would be able to efficiently manage terrain - so one could take the same arguments you're making against 1UPT and pit them against this idea of yours.

This is, again, nothing new. Sim City 4 was a terrible game, but had its moments. One of these was the terrain resources and the concept of this economy. Why not steal from SC4? This specific idea was awesome.
A game can't be everything - that would be my answer here. It's easy to dream about a game with all these awesome mechanics - the true problem is how they play together and off of each other. Can you keep them balanced and interesting? Can the AI use them? Etc.

My biggest gripe with Civ5+ is that it isn't really a civ game. Because there is no change. Everything is basically just upgrading what you already built. in CIV4 at least the terrain looked completely different. You could literally see the change of ages. Industrial revolution was railroads, mines everywhere (or windmills!), less farms, more cottages. That transformation was even more drastic in SMAC. Forests or fungus everywhere, or specialized cities, vast fields of solar collector, heavy borehole cities. It was so exciting to change the landscape your civilization (type) thrives in.
By that argument, Civs 1-3 also weren't a civ game - there was little change and a lot of upgrading.
 
Combat and unit movement
If the AI can't deal with hex-based 1UPT combat, then ditch the whole concept. Why not? Re-introduce armies. The AI can handle moving armies around. There are various alternatives out there, some almost as old as me. Don't take these examples literally, please.

Actually, the Civ AI in any iteration has never been able to handle moving armies around. The prevailing opinion in Civ 4's prime was that the AI sucked at war. In Civ 3, it was originally possible to keep an AI army shuffling between two empty cities by moving a unit between the two.

I can understand being disappointed that an AI can't handle all game mechanics, but this does not mean that such mechanics are flawed. It means that they failed to program the AI properly.

In some cases, this failure is deliberate. Civ IV's AI programmers deliberately designed the AI to not do an axe rush, as that would make higher difficulties impossible for the human.

In other cases, the failure is simply because of rushed production. All features of a mechanic have to be finalized before an AI can be written to utilize them.

And even then, Civ aims for to be moddable, which means that the AI must be able to adapt to new units/buildings/mechanics, further complicating the job.

I'm not saying that you can't write a good AI, though. I just think that the process takes far longer than the production cycle of a game.

Heroes III's AI was as good as it was because it didn't have to learn any mechanics that were not present in Heroes II. Compare that with Heroes IV, where many new mechanics were introduced, and the AI took a noticeable dive. (Granted, rushed production was also a part of that, but the fundamental point remains.)

What I would like to see is AI competence be a function of difficulty level. In my ideal game, the AI would not get bonuses as you go up in difficulty level -- it would just get smarter, with the hardest AI being constantly updated as players discover new strategies.

But in the meantime, I'll still enjoy the Civ series. It's always been casual if you wanted to play that way. That's never made it a bad game.
 
Every Civ game I've played since I first picked up Alpha Centauri has essentially involved providing +X to some meaningless resource in a combination that leads to some arbitrary convoluted-yet-shallow network of decisions that will eventually win me the game.
.

Fixed

The resources are always going to be meaningless (even if they are wheat/soy/oil) because they are abstractions. (after all, you don't talk about which strain of wheat, exact composition of oil, etc.)

now you can argue that Civ is too abstract for your taste (and level of abstraction is important for gameplay taste) but you are going to abstract somewhat, (unless you want to negotiate the wages for a "high transport standard" truck hauling your cassius-strain wheat on the highway over the mountains when driven by a high school graduate or a community college certificate holder)

Because of that abstraction, the decision making will always be arbitrary.

The decision making also has to be somewhat convoluted and somewhat shallow... degree of those also goes towards taste. (although one can potentially stop the decisions from being Too shallow, or Too convoluted)
 
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