pre-release info Civilization VII - Gameplay Trailer/Showcase - Tech Tree

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

That's probably just a generic Spearman. The Greeks are already revealed, and they do have the Hoplite as their UU.

Then this should be WIP.

Mastery has now been implemented across many technologies, acting as 'upgraded' versions to unlock. This effectively "closely" doubles the size of the tech tree. So at the end, this is not that short tbh.

View attachment 703315

And now, no 'Iron age Spearman' as I expect them to be huh?. And what Mastery really do? changes in Legion graphics? but then Roman Techtree shows BOTH Spearmen and Legion. explainations please. 'generic unit' shows first, (as per guidelines to players once he/she plays as different player next time), and then UU that's a replacement or what??

and so this means horsemen exists but as 'end of era' unit?
still Chariot placement isn't really right to me, while spearmen as combat unit shows up so at the stone age, Sparmen as cohesive organized infantry shows up as a countermeasure to chariots (the 'Phalangitai' like, say... Sumerians or Babylonians, maybe?) ). so chariot and associated tech should be shifted backwards by one stage.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I didn't see anything any worse than some of the Wierdness we got in Civs V or VI, so I can wait and see.

In Civ 1, your wise men discover the secret of Alphabet. Then later they discover the secret of Writing. The game provides no insight on what the wise women of your civilization thought about this.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

The Greek Hoplite was something special. First, their shield was much more technically sophisticated, with its wood steamed and formed into a deeply convex shape, backed by leather and covered with thin bronze kept smooth so that incoming spear points and arrows tended to slide off the curved surface. Then they interlocked the shields by having only the right half cover the man holding it, while the left half covered the man to his left and his own right side was covered by the man to his right. The resulting cohesion of the force was legendary, and with professionals like the Spartans or late-classical Mercenaries, nearly impossible to break by a frontal attack.

Hoplons made by OG Greeks are what outsiders (like, say Romans, and other Blonde Barbarians up North) can't replicate?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Hoplons made by OG Greeks are what outsiders (like, say Romans, and other Blonde Barbarians up North) can't replicate?

The shields used by Celts, Romans, Thracians, 'Easterners' et al were largely flat surfaced and wood with metal reinforcements but no smooth metal outer surface covering the whole thing. The Roman early-Imperial Scutum was rectangular and semi-circular, but only on the horizontal axis and did not offer the smooth curved surface of the Greek Aspis (Hoplon shield)

As a result all those other shields were much easier to manufacture, but also less effective against any kind of thrusting action (including missiles) than the Greek version. On the other hand, the classic Aspis begins to disappear when Greek warriors start to become professionals and mercenaries instead of upper middle-class amateurs that provide their own equipment. Suddenly the expense of those special shields fell on the states and they appear to have started economizing.

Also, that coincides with the advent of much heavier missiles. One Aspis that was dedicated as an offering at Delphi had a 3-4 cm square hole right through it - the same cross-section as a catapult Bolt, against which the shield was obviously not a defense no matter how well constructed.

 

[AriochIV]

The Hoplite being in the Roman tree may be a quirk of the demo.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The Hoplite being in the Roman tree may be a quirk of the demo.

You might be right, considering they could also build a Parthenon, but later that was revealed to be unique to Greece.

 

[Lord Lakely]

The shields used by Celts, Romans, Thracians, 'Easterners' et al were largely flat surfaced and wood with metal reinforcements but no smooth metal outer surface covering the whole thing. The Roman early-Imperial Scutum was rectangular and semi-circular, but only on the horizontal axis and did not offer the smooth curved surface of the Greek Aspis (Hoplon shield)

Per illustration, the evolution of the Roman military uniform

I honestly wouldn't mind to see the Roman Spearman take after the Hastatus or Triarius.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Greeks specifically use the Hoplon shield because of their Phalanx formation. The round shields would overlap like the scales of a fish, and be nigh inpenetrable for the spears everyone carried. Meanwhile, the square shields used by the legionnaries were more effective in the Testudo formation and offered better protection against projectiles.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Per illustration, the evolution of the Roman military uniform

View attachment 703404


I honestly wouldn't mind to see the Roman Spearman take after the Hastatus or Triarius.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Greeks specifically use the Hoplon shield because of their Phalanx formation. The round shields would overlap like the scales of a fish, and be nigh inpenetrable for the spears everyone carried. Meanwhile, the square shields used by the legionnaries were more effective in the Testudo formation and offered better protection against projectiles.

And before 300 - 275 BCE they were carrying a round Greek-like Aspis and using the Phalanx formation. According to their own traditions, the increasing use of heavy javelins and swords instead of spears was due to influence from the Samnite hill tribes of central Italy. lllustrations 4 and 5 show the rectangular Scutum shield, which re-enactors discovered also makes an excellent improvised Bed, keeping you off the cold ground which can leach the heat out of you faster than the air can. I suspect the first Roman soldier discovered that fact about 5 minutes after the shield was first issued to him!

The Greek shields didn't overlap so much as their coverage overlapped adjacent men, as posted. If the men squeezed together close enough to overlap shields, that was a strictly defensive and relatively immoveable formation.

Going by the 'drill manual' of the later Macedonian phalanx (which used a smaller shield) by Asclepiodotus, the better drilled Hoplites, like Spartans or Mercenary professionals, would normally form with about three feet per man, could 'tighten up' to about 2 feet per man (which would make the 3 foot diameter shields overlap) into a tight defensive formation, and could spread out to about 5 - 6 feet per man to cross rough terrain without disordering the entire formation. The Imperial Romans had similar variations in the width of the formation, so that their tightest formation had overlapping shields and if some held their shields overhead formed the Testudo ("turtle") formation. In both Roman and Greek armies, the smallest unit was the File of 8 men led by a "Leader of Ten" (Latin: Decurion) which indicates they both started life back before the 6th - 7th centuries BCE as simple decimal formations 10 ranks deep.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

Just a few notes about Civ VII's Tech Tree:

As stated, from the standpoint of a Historian of Technology (which I'm not, but I can Play one in the Forum) the sequences and dependancies have numerous egregious problems.

But as a sequence for a game, we need to see how it plays out - I didn't see anything any worse than some of the Wierdness we got in Civs V or VI, so I can wait and see.

On a strictly game note, the Antiquity and Exploration Age tech trees shown have the following characteristics:

Both have 6 Tiers

Antiquity Age has 24 Techs, of which 8 are Masteries
Exploration Age has 25 Techs, of which 11 are Masteries

Therefore, assuming a similar progression in the Modern Age, the game will have 72 - 75 Techs, of which about half will be Masteries.

The difference in 'research times' in the Antiquity Age between Tiers is 8 to 15, so each succeeding Tier is about twice as hard to research without any additional research bonuses. There is no difference in the research time for a regular Tech and a Mastery Tech

By comparison, Civ VI at launch had 67 Technologies plus Future Tech. It also had Eurekas to speed things up and an entirely separate Civics Tree.

They have, I believe, said that if you finish the Age Tech Tree early you research 'Future Tech' until the next Age. I don't believe they have indicated whether Antiquity or Exploration Future Techs will give you any bonus going into the next Age. It would be logical to assume so, I just don't remember.

Likewise, I don't remember any information on what happens to allow a new Civ in a new Age to 'catch up' with Techs they didn't research in the previous Age. Someone who has delved into the released information more thoroughly may have something?

If I can add my own two cents, I will say that I've always felt the tech tree in each iteration has been rather lacklustre, in that it has never truly managed to include all the important technological & scientific breakthroughs in human history. On top of not enough techs being included, there are quite a few techs I feel are either redundant (e.g. what does 'Industrialization' refer to, that isn't already covered by steam power, electricity or the assembly line?), or not really technologies at all, but rather social constructs (or as they're called in civ 6, civics)

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

This table.

There's a unit called 'Sarissa' (Proper name is Phalangites) shown here. (Well of Souls site. https://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ7_units.html)
should it be yet another UU actually? but it is activated with ironworking tech and seemes to shown up AFTER the Legion while in fact it came around the same time.

But to me ( and a discussions with @Boris Gudenuf ) . Sarissa Pikemen are more of UU rather than generic unit. it also seems that both front and rear carries shield, the frontmost however carries tower shield. personally this should be technical upgrade to change spearmen graphics into iron armor and iron spear infantry and not a hard separate unit upgrade like this.

This is still off to me even i'm working to beat the Civ7 release deadline to bring about my civ6 mod (Second version) to fruition, one that has Classical Era Anticav unit between spearmen and pikemen. lotta researches and discussions especially here. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/unit-between-spearman-and-pikeman.684531/

And FXis finally did what many Modders (myself included, though with only two releases long time ago) have done in Civ6 several years before. with rather fuzzy name conventions to use, and appearances to be. but don't say that this will replaces swordsmen that has been traditional units for Civ series since the Third game onwards. (will it)

 

[AriochIV]

The names in parentheses are not confirmed; I just choose the best I can because I have to call them something. I chose "sarissa" just because it's shorter than "Antiquity Pikeman" or "Tier 3 Spearman." It might just as easily be called "phalanx" or who knows what.

However, it doesn't appear to be a unique unit. It appears in the Roman tech tree, but is not mentioned in the Roman description of uniques. So unless there's some error in the tree or the presentations, I don't think it can be a UU.

Also, the clip where we see the unit in combat, it is in an empire that has an elephant and Pataliputra as a city, so I'm assuming that's Maurya.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^
1. My suggestion is Phalangitai. (though personally as a modder, and 'history student' of this site. my thoughs went for either 'Shieldbearer', or 'Heavy Infantry' which denotes that they tend to be combined arms unit (with either axemen, macemen, swordsmen or any other shock weapons infantry) added to the front in the same block and not a separate swordsmen). biggest example was Early Republic Roman Legion. which front elements were once originally hoplite spearmen, but later switched their spears for swords (Hastati and Principes) and only the rear most legionaire (Triarii, who also crack troops) still the same ol hoplite with long spear of any kind.) which personally a generic choice, while ancient pikemen (Sarissa pikemen) were best represented either Macedonian or Diadochi Greeks as UU and not really generic.
so far it is still no names confirmed but unit graphics are. (or seems to be)
2. there might be WIP errors or intentionally tech tree to show 'generic' choice together with civ unique replacements so to remind players what this UU actually replaced.

Back to name conventions. the 'trireme' unit is best named 'Polyreme'. as per discussions with @Boris Gudenuf , the artillery intensive polyremes ('Artillery' as of Classical standards, one that several centuries before gunpowder weaponizations came to be) are Quinqueremes. names (and maybe unit shapes) FXis chose for the first ranged warship in Civ6 is at best misnamed. while the shape seems to be alrite , the name isn't. historically Quadrireme was a simple 'beefed up' Trireme (strong ram attackers with both speeds and mass combined to give out strongest impact) and used in the same way. the advent of Quinqueremes about a century after defines the real 'heavy warships' that has advantages of capacity, and stability (to mount towers, as well as arrays of big catapults and ballistae, and four times increases in marines capacity), while being bad at speeds and not really agile--too slow to sink any enemy warships by ramming alone, and too cumbersome to steer while triremes and quadriremes are swift enough to do that. instead anyone using Quinqueremes or bigger would rely on boarding actions.

 

[AriochIV]

They tend to use more commonly known terms like "Legion" and "Phalanx" when available, especially for those that aren't unique units. They used "Quinquereme" in Civ5, but it was a Carthaginian unique unit replacing the generic Trireme.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Well in truth Quinquereme isn't really unique. Romans use ones. so many of these, well for some 400 years from Punic Wars into their Civil War.

 

[Tanel]

Then this should be WIP.


And now, no 'Iron age Spearman' as I expect them to be huh?. And what Mastery really do? changes in Legion graphics? but then Roman Techtree shows BOTH Spearmen and Legion. explainations please. 'generic unit' shows first, (as per guidelines to players once he/she plays as different player next time), and then UU that's a replacement or what??

and so this means horsemen exists but as 'end of era' unit?
still Chariot placement isn't really right to me, while spearmen as combat unit shows up so at the stone age, Sparmen as cohesive organized infantry shows up as a countermeasure to chariots (the 'Phalangitai' like, say... Sumerians or Babylonians, maybe?) ). so chariot and associated tech should be shifted backwards by one stage.

There seems to be 3 tiers of units in each age and the Unique units will now have 2 versions which occupy 2 tier levels. The 2nd tier of the UU just improves the unit's strength but the special abilities are kept the same. This is a great way of keeping the UUs relevant for 2/3 of the age with some civs peaking in early to mid age and others mid to late age.

Egypt's Medjay seems to be a T1 unit which is unlocked at the start of the game and can be later upgraded into T2 while the Roman Legion is a T2 unit that can be upgraded into T3.

 

[AriochIV]

There seems to be 3 tiers of units in each age and the Unique units will now have 2 versions which occupy 2 tier levels. The 2nd tier of the UU just improves the unit's strength but the special abilities are kept the same. This is a great way of keeping the UUs relevant for 2/3 of the age with some civs peaking in early to mid age and other mid to late age.

Egypt's Medjay seems to be a T1 unit which is unlocked at the start of the game and can be later upgraded into T2 while the Roman Legion is a T2 unit that can be upgraded into T3.

They don't all have only 2 tiers. The Medjay has been spotted at Tier 3.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

They don't all have only 2 tiers. The Medjay has been spotted at Tier 3.

Hiven 6 tiers of Tech per Age (seen so far, anyway) and 2 Tiers of Upgrades for Units, I suspect ther might be a lot of variation anout when Upgrade chances occur.

Given also that the one set of costs for Tech upgrades ran (in Antiquity) at about 8 - 15 Turns and seems to approximately double the cost with each Tier, 2 Unit Upgrades per Age also gives enough time to use a specific Unit before it obsoletes - one of the main problems of the later versions of Civ VI, after they added 'extra' units and unit upgrades into the Eras.

Still too much speculation for my taste, because the next screenshot/video could upend the whole premise, but keeping Unit Upgrades to 2 per Age At The Moment seems to make sense given the Tech tiers and costs.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ One more thing is that fashion.

Note that.. according to ol' pal Well of Souls. Age 3 Tier 1 Units wear two distinct kinds of headgear
Same unit, 'Cannon' (so i think 'Ranged' and 'Siege' are either converged here, or Ranged converged with Infantry class when gunpowder is researched).
One variant, gun crews wear Tricorne (of the 'Enlightenment Era' , or 18th Century)

Other Variant, gun crews wear Napoleonic uniforms including Shako

But this time the uniform appears to be the same type, and standing collar coats rather than fallcollars. this standing collar uniforms matches well with either tricornes or shakoes. while ones in Civ6 (Redcoats) are mismatched when shako is put on.

 

[stealth_nsk]

It looks like unique units replace more than one unit. We see at least Legion being placed in both Bronze Working and Iron Working, plus Songhai's unique unit in both Heraldry and Metal Casting (although not Musketeer in Gunpowder, so it actually could be a ranged unit).

I assume when you research second tech, your unique unit is automatically upgraded to a better version of itself.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ It could mean that Imperial Guard might return if player choose France in Age 3. (There were classic Napoleonic 'Grognards', and the other 'Five hundrads' of Napoleon III 's era... the unit that wore uniforms that later adopted by modern Presidential Guard.