Civilizations

[Elda King]

Yes, but how he fits in Arda? Some speculate he's Eru himself, because his wife answered to "who is he" with "he is"; some say he's a Maia, others say he is a Vala; and other say he is neither of those. That's why it's better to let him enigmatic or simply don't put him on the mod.

 

[Pariah]

The Maia theory is most popular, and most logical. Tom claimed to be older than all Earthly life, remembering "the first raindrop and the first acorn," which rules out an elvish nature; Gandalf stated that he wasn't as powerful as Sauron, so he couldn't have been one of the Valar. And Tolkien almost directly denied the notion that Tom was Eru himself:

'There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers.'

- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 181, dated 1956.

The fact that the Ring didn't affect him would mean that he was a Maia of very different province from either Sauron or Gandalf - but the Ainur possessed very diverse talents and inclinations, so that isn't surprising really.

 

[Elda King]

Yes, it's the most logical, he being a Maia of Yavanna. But I'd rather don't mess the mod with it... I myself think he was simply a spirit of the forest, not a Ainu or anything, as his wife was a river nymph (though you may say she was also a Maia).

 

[Pariah]

I always imagined Goldberry as a sort of freshwater mermaid (minus the fish tail, of course). Tolkien mentioned female sea-spirits called Oarni in early versions of the story of Earendil; Goldberry & her mother presumably were fashioned after these.

Should we feature such creatures in the mod, with or without Bombadil?

 

[Elda King]

I think we shouldn't. They are from one early version of the tales, as you said, and most of those things were abandonded. They don't make a lot of sense in the final world anyway, and I myself don't have any idea for them in the mod - they are not needed, and thought maybe we could find a use for them I'd prefer not.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

we might find a good rason later on, but until then, i don't think they're needed.

 

[Pariah]

So what's happened with this mod? Any progress?

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Well, i don't have much time, and elda can't work on it, but sifaus has started working, so there si still hope for it

 

[Chuggi]

Dead again? This time it's staying dead I think...

 

[Sifaus]

no it isn't dead i working and i trying to do a preview now

 

[NubianMercenary]

: Woot!! LOTR mod = NOt Dead..!! mwhahahaha!

 

[Sifaus]

it's not working!!! i don't like rohan until this preview work

(i don't know what must i do. i try everything but it crashes !!! )

if thomas.burebug cant find problem, i'll forget this files and start from 1st age civs (4 civs i think:Noldor, Vanyar, Teleri and Shadow (i'm not sure dwarves and mans)).

 

[Elda King]

Oh, no, it can't be happening! I really hope you solve this quickly... The last thing the mod need believe is another Big Bad Unsolvable Bug!
(For those who didn't know, the first version of the mod, for vanilla, faced a CTD that we couldn't solve in many months... So we had to start over for BTS).

And this mod is not dead. Perhaps fainted, but not dead. In two weaks my holydays will start, and I'll have at last some time to work on it... My school is killing me right now, I have time for almost nothing that isn't related to it (do school works, study for tests)... Though I sometimes steal some time from it to check the forums. Good luck with the bugs, and carry my burden a little more - until I can carry it by myself.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Sifaus, send what you have to elda King too.

elda, i think it's an error that occures in the update from 3.03 to 3.13

 

[NamesAreUseless]

Well I've been pretty much given permission to edit the civilization list. It has been significantly shrinked, and here it is:

Noldor Empire
Race: Elves
Leaders: Fëanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel

Teleri Empire
Race: Elves
Leader: Olwë, Thingol, Círdan

Avari Empire
Race: Elves
Leader: [Made-up Elf]

Longbeard Empire
Race: Dwarves
Leader: Dúrin, Dàin

Firebeard Empire
Race: Dwarves
Leader: Azaghâl, Telchar

Edain Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: ???

Arnor Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Isildur, Aragorn Elessar

Rohirrim Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Eorl, Helm, Théoden

Northmen Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Vidugavia, Bard

Dunlending Empire
Race: Evil Men / Orcs / Uruk-hai
Leaders: Freca, Saruman

Easterling Empire
Race: Evil Men
Leader: Khamûl

Haradrim Empire
Race: Evil Men
Leaders: Herumor

Angmar Empire
Race: Evil Men / Orcs
Leader: Ulfang, Witch King

The Shadow
Race: Orcs / Uruk-Hai / [much more!]
Leaders: Melkor, Sauron


Its a pretty rough list still. There were about 7 elven civs that I've compressed into 3, 4 dwarven civs now 2, etc. etc. Avari may not be necessary (really had no significance in any of Tolkien's works) and Rohan and the Northmen COULD be combined as a singular Northmen civilization.

Reason Edain is ??? is because I have NO idea who I want their leaders to be. Edain should also cover Numenor AND Gondor I think, and there are a lot of named kings for them.

I also feel that another Noldor leader is in order.

About Angmar: Witch King should obviously be a leader, and I think that Ulfang's Easterlings could fit into the Angmar civ as their "First Age" units as opposed to Dunland (I believe that the Hill Men, "Ruffians", that scoured the Shire are probably related to Ulfang's Easterlings, and the Hill Men should be a part of the Angmar civ). Ulfang used to be a leader for the Easterling civ, but I've rethought it over and now I highly doubt that Ulfang and his Easterlings have any connection to the Rhun Easterlings, so I changed the leader to Khamul, the only Rhun Easterling name that Tolkien gave.

Like the list?

 

[Pariah]

If compressing my previous lists is necessary to make the mod work, you could use Beor, Hador, Hurin or Barahir as leaders for the single Edain civ. (I always thought that singular Noldor and Edain civs would suffice, but the general consensus was to have 3 of each). A 3rd Noldor leader: Fingolfin.

However, please don't compress Numenor, Arnor & Gondor into the same Edain civ! That would be like lumping the French, Spanish and Portugese into 1 civ and calling them "Roman"!

If Avari are not really necessary, I suggest reintroducing the Vanyar instead. They at least have a legitimate leader name (Ingwe).

 

[NamesAreUseless]

If compressing my previous lists is necessary to make the mod work, you could use Beor, Hador, Hurin or Barahir as leaders for the single Edain civ.

That's actually a really good idea

Do you think you could narrow it to three though? I think that each civ should have only a maximum of three leader choices.

(I always thought that singular Noldor and Edain civs would suffice, but the general consensus was to have 3 of each). A 3rd Noldor leader: Fingolfin.

Yeah Fingolfin would work.

However, please don't compress Numenor, Arnor & Gondor into the same Edain civ! That would be like lumping the French, Spanish and Portugese into 1 civ and calling them "Roman"!

In all fairness, I do have Arnor seperate from the Edain civ

I have been debating about these civilizations with myself. Numenor just seems to be a distinctly "Second Age" civ, while Gondor seems to be a distinctly "Third Age" civ.

I could add Numenor and Gondor as seperate civs, and then they could just share the same unit set. Should the Edain and Arnor share this unit set to, or should these two have seperate unit sets? I was hoping I could get each civ to have its own unique "flavor" units.

By making this change, the civ list will indeed grow quite a bit. You think I should combine the Northmen and Rohirrim civs together? (Kinda like how Isengard became a part of the Dunlending civ, since Isengard and it's Uruk-hai were only a small bit in Arda history; Rohan didn't come into being until the late Third Age, and the Northmen are their distinct ancestors). On the other hand, Rohan was a seperate "nation" to the kingdoms of the Rhovanion (Dale, etc.) during the Third Age. If both are kept, then they should definitely share the same flavor unit set.

If Avari are not really necessary, I suggest reintroducing the Vanyar instead. They at least have a legitimate leader name (Ingwe).

Only problem is that the Vanyar left for Valinor even BEFORE the First Age. At least the Avari actually have their own civilization, but nearly nothing is known of them. I could just take out the Avari civ and leave it at that, but that only leaves two elvish civilizations, and to me three elven civs seems like the perfect number. I'll think about this some more.

Thanks for the suggestions Pariah

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Maybe Gondor and Numenor can be one civ...

I thought of a spawning mechanic for Angmar. Should Barbs or Shadow conquer an Arnor city, Angmar enters the game, with a unique hero (the witch king, with it's capital the city that was conquered.)

 

[NamesAreUseless]

Maybe Gondor and Numenor can be one civ...

I thought of a spawning mechanic for Angmar. Should Barbs or Shadow conquer an Arnor city, Angmar enters the game, with a unique hero (the witch king, with it's capital the city that was conquered.)

I think Gondor and Numenor should be combined, as well as the Northmen and Rohan personally.

Is that the "interesting" mechanic you were talking about for Angmar when you PMed me? Seems like a REALLY complicated. Might as well just make Angmar their own civ like all the rest.

I was just thinking that Angmar should have some Wights and other kind of undead, along with Orcs, Trolls, and Hill Men. That would be pretty sweet

 

[thomas.berubeg]

okay...

though it would be nice...