Clive1 - Monarch (Training ?) game

After the first city or two, you should always escort your settlers. You'd hate to have a barb come running out of the fog and take him. Even a conscript warrior is better than nothing.

You should probably switch hattusas off of a settler. As noted, you'll need to be at size 4 to start churning settlers, and building settlers will never get you to size 4. Do you have a granary there yet? Maybe switch to that and get a helpful forest chop?
 
1. someone please send me instructions on how to make a dotmap
2.. I like scout's thoughts on city placement if we are not going to go for wonders (around the time of Leonardo);
If we are going to go for late wonders without moving our palace, then I suggest we have our core cities able to grow as large as possible (optimal city placement). If the later, I suggest next city in Scout's #2 and the one after that SW, S, S, S of Hatusas (for barracks and unit factory)
3. I concur with previous posts that we need to RUN to horses ASAP.
4. FYI, I'm intuitive, I don't usually crunch numbers like y'all and I like to gamble. Barbs haven't been much of a problem to date. we can risk running settlers to desired location w/o escorts. if barbs hit the cities and take gold, so what?
 
SesnOfWthr said:
You should probably switch hattusas off of a settler. As noted, you'll need to be at size 4 to start churning settlers, and building settlers will never get you to size 4. Do you have a granary there yet? Maybe switch to that and get a helpful forest chop?

Thanks SensOfWthr - I got a bit confused since I have never tried for a settler factory before. I do normally go for granary and growth ASAP in my central towns before building units when I am playing individual games and had forgotten that constant churning of settlers / workers at size 2/3 will mean we never grow big enough to hit optimum settler factory size . I would therefore agree that build granary and then get to size 4/5/6 before churning out the settlers / workers is very sound advice .

Unfortunately we don't have enough workers to start chopping forests yet but I guess things should pick up a bit once we get our 3rd town founded.
 
Admiral Kutzov said:
FYI, I'm intuitive, I don't usually crunch numbers like y'all and I like to gamble. Barbs haven't been much of a problem to date. we can risk running settlers to desired location w/o escorts. if barbs hit the cities and take gold, so what?
The risk is not barbarians stealing gold from your cities, the risk is that the barbs will pop your settler flatfooted, and you won't get the city build in the first place.
 
I would not care about a barb sacking the city so much as I would care about them taking your settlers.....
EDIT: Scout beat me to it

Here's how I make a dotmap:
-Center the screen on whatever view of the game you want to make a dotmap of (I find it easier to leave the gridlines on, but personal pref)
-Press the "print screen" key on your keyboard (also PrtSc)
-Then I open up Paint
-Press ctrl-v to paste in the screen image
-I generally use the spray can thingie to make my dots
-Save the file, but make sure you save as a jpg or gif (mine always defaults to a bmp)
-Post on the forums (let me know if you don't know how to do that)
 
Bede's got it.

Priorities:
1) Build a granary and a barracks.
2) Pull conscripts back for MP duty
3) Get workers devoted to developing capitol
4) Set up the new town to grow to size 2 then abandon for a free settler and move him back closer to the core.
5) Make more friends.
 
@ Bede: What is this abandon/free settler business, and why do you want to abandon a town?
 
i think they want to get rid of Ugarit, the town they popped from the hut.

It's far to the NW, and a big flip risk being on the (Iroquois? Vikings?) purple border. Abandoning it this way allows them to move it to a more productive/closer location.
 
Yes and No.

That's the normal way to abandon it, just right-click and select "abandon city".

Another way to do it is to get your town to pop 2, and give it no extra food. Then when you build the settler, you'll get a popup giving you the choice of waiting until there is food available in the city, or abandoning the city an building the settler. That way, when it is early in the game like this, you don't really lose the city, you just kind of "move" it.

HTH
 
MSTK said:
Whenever I abandon a city I get a Ruins. Am I doing something wrong?
I don't think so... I'm not sure where Brother Bede is going with the abandon city/instant settler thing.. perhaps he'll set the queue to settler, and abandon it after it makes a settler...

@Bede: Did you note that Sir Clive got Mysticism?

We probably ought to have a discussion here on minimum research gambits... a Polytheism gambit might work well here...

@Sir Clive: You did pretty good with the tech part. There are probably some "finer points" that could be discussed, but you played that part of soundly.

A "general rule"...invest your research in second- and third-tier techs. Trade for the first tier techs.

On Masonry: I love to get this one into the AI's hands ASAP, so they plow lots of shields into the Pyramids.
 
Sorry for the lack of analysis on the "town abandon".

And DocT is right, now that I have had a chance to sleep on it. Just when I looked at the picture Ugarit appeared to be sooo far from the homeland, and I didn't think about the resource thing, then I remembered the 3MWC....and now it doesn't look so far after all. I sometimes have a hard time seeing beyond the end of my Irish nose!!! :D

On the Polytheism gambit: it's a good one but it will mean a trade off for the upper tier, but may put more money in our pocket than chasing Philosophy. The other thing to think about is do we have any elephants in the savanna? If we do then Philosophy in hopes of getting Map Making free, followed by Math for the SofZ, then Currency, might make sense too.

Won't play until tonight so all help given will be useful
 
-2550
First steps, shut off lux as we have only one citizen in all our towns, so no unhappiness problems.

Play with the map controls to get a better view and realize we are at the outer edge of a shield and food paradise.

Now for a ittle analysis of the neighbors:
Japan is religious and militaristic with a MA UU requiring only one resource (iron).
India is commercial and religious with a MA UU requiring no resources.

And if I remember correctly both UU's are upgrades from horses!

So, both neighbors will put a premium on cultural knowledge, India will value things like Math and Currency higher, while Japan will put a value on the Military knowledge. So we have lots of choices as to a research path. Neither are scientific..All of this tempts me to pursue the Writing to Philosphy gambit, thinking to trade Writing for Iron Working and Polytheism and taking Monarchy as the Philsophy benefit (assuming we get there before any other nation).

In between all this musing switch the temple build at Ugarit to a worker, and swap citizens around at the home towns to boost output and protect growth (moving the citizen at Hasttusas to the mined tile and the citizen at Tarsus to the wheat) start a granary in Hattusas, and let Tarsus finish its worker.

Set research to Writing at 20% (50turns).

1-2510
Foound Riverbend at...riverbend. Start barracks. Worker moves to road the game tile. Scout and warriors start boxing the compass. Conscript in the far north finds another village. With the extra commerce form the new town crank up the research to 100%, Writing now due in 26. Hattusas grows and the new citizen gets assigned to the irrigated plains. This is going to take some fiddling to get the granary on growth matched up. Grnary in 14, growth in seven

Tarsus builds it workers and it too starts a granary

2-2470BC Northern warrior greets the friendly Bantu who donate maps. His next moce will be due east to the coast and then homeward. Worker from Tarsus heads to the forest for a little lumberjacking. I was smoking wacky tabaccy when I assigned the worker at Hattusas to roading. He should be chopping trees too,

3-2430
Meet a Ghizz conscript in the near north. Warrior heads south towards home.

Meet a Russian (scientific and expansionist with a late MA UU that is an stone killer reqioring saltpeeter and horses) on a vector towards Ugarit and India. Hope Catherine is disposed to be friendly as her warrior is four turns closer to Ugarit than the warrior I have inbound. She has gold but no knowledge to trade. I don't like trading away Alphabet and Masonry yet but will have to soon.

And her warior moves away from Ugarit and the Indian town, which appears to be the only one. The Ghuzz barbarian moves northward away from the scouting warrior.

4-2390
Continue exploring north, west and east.

5-2350
Contiue exploring and find the Russian border in the really far west, with a warrior settler pair ready to move east.

6-2310
Explore some more

7-2270
Exploring. Forest chop puts ten shields toward the granary at Tarsus and reveals a BG. Worker starts a mine.

Russians pop a hut and learn Masonry.



8-2230

We do the same in the north and collect more gold...

Tarsus grows and the lux tax goes to 10% but the new citizen pulls in enough gold to offset the increase. New citizen is put to work on the game forest and growth will now come in seven and the granary in 5. Worker at Hattusas finshes road and moves to forest outside Tarsus.

9-2190
Japan has learned Mysticism.

10-2150
The scout in the north has found a yellow border to his east. The warrior in the west is tracing the Russian border. The warriors north of the homeland are scoping the coast and heading home.

Riverbend will grow in one just as an MP arrives.

Granary at Tarsus will finish in ~10 turns with some help from growth, lumberjacking and a mine. Fiddle with the citizen assignments so that the growth happens after the granary build. Hattusas is on course to complete its granary in 3 and grow in five. When the granaries finish at both cities, train a worker at each, then set Hattusas to producing a settler. Time the worker to the population growth. The worker at Hattusas should start the needed development towards a settler farm. The workers at Tarsus should start improving the ground to support five productive citizens. The sixth can go fishing. As we get closer to writing try adjusting the science budget downwards so as not to waste gold. Also the lux slider will have to go up as Tarsus and Hattusas grow so the waste of gold is self-limiting. And the production of a worker first will relieve the upward pressure on the lux tax.

The objectives of the worker team should be to develop terrain as citizens become available to work it, don't bother to develop terrain before a citizen is available to work it.

The Russian settler team planted Novgorod due east of the Russian borders.

A note on trading: don't be too eager. If the deal isn't rich enough let it go. Only make a trade when you have something to trade for it down the line, in other words if you need gold to close a deal for knowledge find another party to make a deal with to acquire the gold, then do the deal, then move on the third, and the fourth, trading tech for tech, try not to trade knowledge only for gold. Don't sweat it if we are third to learn something, we know enough people that the others don't that trading at fourth and fifth will be very profitable. To get an approximation of tech value you can crank the science budget up to 100%, then multiply the science expense in the F1 screen by the turns required. This will give you a starting point for negotiation, but you will always pay more than that for a monopoly technology. (I forget what the factor is at Monarch just that it is more.) Rememeber the other guys won't call you if they have something to sell, if they run into you in the forest they might put something on offer but it is usually not to your advantage, so check in every turn. Persistence pays.
 
0-2550
First steps, shut off lux as we have only one citizen in all our towns, so no unhappiness problems.

Play with the map controls to get a better view and realize we are at the outer edge of a shield and food paradise.

Now for a little analysis of the neighbors:
Japan is religious and militaristic with a MA UU requiring only one resource (iron).
India is commercial and religious with a MA UU requiring no resources.

And if I remember correctly both UU's are upgrades from horses!

So, both neighbors will put a premium on cultural knowledge, India will value things like Math and Currency higher, while Japan will put a value on the Military knowledge. So we have lots of choices as to a research path. Neither are scientific..All of this tempts me to pursue the Writing to Philosphy gambit, thinking to trade Writing for Iron Working and Polytheism and taking Monarchy as the Philsophy benefit (assuming we get there before any other nation).

In between all this musing switch the temple build at Ugarit to a worker, and swap citizens around at the home towns to boost output and protect growth (moving the citizen at Hasttusas to the mined tile and the citizen at Tarsus to the wheat) start a granary in Hattusas, and let Tarsus finish its worker.

Set research to Writing at 20% (50turns).

1-2510
Found Riverbend at...riverbend. Start barracks. Worker moves to road the game tile. Scout and warriors start boxing the compass. Conscript in the far north finds another village. With the extra commerce from the new town crank up the research to 100%, Writing now due in 26. Hattusas grows and the new citizen gets assigned to the irrigated plains. This is going to take some fiddling to get the granary on growth to match up. Granary in 14, growth in seven.

Tarsus builds it worker and it too starts a granary

2-2470BC Northern warrior greets the friendly Bantu who donate maps. His next move will be due east to the coast and then homeward. Worker from Tarsus heads to the forest for a little lumberjacking. I was smoking wacky tabaccy when I assigned the worker at Hattusas to roading. He should be chopping trees too.

3-2430
Meet a Ghuzz conscript in the near north. Warrior heads south towards home.

Meet a Russian (scientific and expansionist with a late MA UU that is a stone killer requiring saltpeter and horses) on a vector towards Ugarit and India. Hope Catherine is disposed to be friendly as her warrior is four turns closer to Ugarit than the warrior I have inbound. She has gold but no knowledge to trade. I don't like trading away Alphabet and Masonry yet but may have to soon as the Russians will meet the Indians.

And her warior moves away from Ugarit and the Indian town, which appears to be the only one. The Ghuzz barbarian moves northward away from the scouting warrior.

4-2390
Continue exploring north, west and east.

5-2350
Continue exploring and find the Russian border in the really far west, with a warrior settler pair ready to move east.

6-2310
Explore some more

7-2270
Exploring. Forest chop puts ten shields toward the granary at Tarsus and reveals a BG. Worker starts a mine.

Russians pop a hut and learn Masonry.

8-2230

We do the same in the north and collect more gold...

Tarsus grows and the lux tax goes to 10% but the new citizen pulls in enough gold to offset the increase. New citizen is put to work on the game forest and growth will now come in seven and the granary in 5. Worker at Hattusas finshes road and moves to forest outside Tarsus.

9-2190
Japan has learned Mysticism.

10-2150
The scout in the north has found a yellow border to his east. The warrior in the west is tracing the Russian border. The warriors north of the homeland are scoping the coast and heading home.

Riverbend will grow in one just as an MP arrives.

Granary at Tarsus will finish in ~10 turns with some help from growth, lumberjacking and a mine. Fiddle with the citizen assignments so that the growth happens after the granary build. Hattusas is on course to complete its granary in 3 and grow in five. When the granaries finish at both cities, train a worker at each, then set Hattusas to producing a settler. Time the worker to the population growth. The worker at Hattusas should start the needed development towards a settler farm. The workers at Tarsus should start improving the ground to support five productive citizens. The sixth can go fishing. As we get closer to writing try adjusting the science budget downwards so as not to waste gold. Also the lux slider will have to go up as Tarsus and Hattusas grow so the waste of gold is self-limiting. And the production of a worker first will relieve the upward pressure on the lux tax.

The objectives of the worker team should be to develop terrain as citizens become available to work it, don't bother to develop terrain before a citizen is available to work it.

The Russian settler team planted Novgorod due east of the Russian borders.

A note on trading: don't be too eager. If the deal isn't rich enough let it go. Only make a trade when you have something to trade for it down the line, in other words if you need gold to close a deal for knowledge find another party to make a deal with to acquire the gold, then do the deal, then move on the third, and the fourth, trading tech for tech, try not to trade knowledge only for gold. Don't sweat it if we are third to learn something, we know enough people that the others don't that trading at fourth and fifth will be very profitable. To get an approximation of tech value you can crank the science budget up to 100%, then multiply the science expense in the F1 screen by the turns required. This will give you a starting point for negotiation, but you will always pay more than that for a monopoly technology. (I forget what the factor is at Monarch just that it is more.) Remember the other guys won't call you if they have something to sell, if they run into you in the forest they might put something on offer but it is usually not to your advantage, so check in every turn. Persistence pays.


CLive1_2150.png
 
You know, there's an easier way Bede.

Something I found recently that I have found immensely helpful is a neat little tool Grey Fox calls his TechCalc.
 
Got it. I'll probably play tomorrow. I'll need some suggestions in the meantime :) .
 
@Sesn,

Right you are, and I use it occasionally. But I'm so used to running numbers in my head and I'm looking at the F1 screen all the time anyway....and I can auto minimize while TechCalc doesn't. :D

@viper,
Explore, make more friends, prevent disorder (use the lux slider), keep the citizens working improved terrain. Riverbend needs improvements, roads and irrigation, irrigate the wheat at Tarsus and mine the bonus grass.

Check for trade opportunities every turn, but don't give give anything away and don't buy a monopoly tech unless it is something we really need and have trading opportunities.

When the warriors get back home put them to MP duty.

Tarsus and Hattusas don't need more than six tiles improved each as they should be on worker/settler duty. At Riverbend, irrigate the wheat, mine the sugar, irrigate one plains and mine one, assign citizens to riverside terrain first.

@Sesn,
Can you do a worker farm table for Tarsus like the settler farm table you did for Hattusas. I can never get those things right....
 
You got it, Bede.

In order to get a 2 turn worker factory, you'll need both a harbor and granary.

To get a 2 turn factory, you'll need 5f and 5s surplus per turn.

Irrigated wheat - 4f
Fish w/harbor - 3f
Mined BG (x2) - 4f, 4s
City center - 2f, 1s

You would need 13f and 5 shield per turn to get your surplus of 5 each.


I also messed around with this to see what could be done to avoid the harbor for now.

You could do as well as a three turn worker factory at size 2. You will still need the granary.

Irrigated wheat - 4f
Mined BG - 2f, 2s
City square - 2f, 1s

Totals of 8f and 3s each turn. Your two citizens eat 4 food per turn.
Surplus of four food per turn = 3 turns to growth. (two extra)
Surplus of 3s per turn for three turns = 9s PLUS the two you get on growth fpr the citizen that will be placed in the forest.

Either way, once it starts, just queue up a half dozen workers and forget about it. No citizens will have to be moved.

For the current situation, I would recommend the second version. That way you can also build a settler(or two) to shrink it down once the granary comes in. The first way will take you what - 20+ turns to build the harbor?
 
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