CoL Discussion: Section E(Judicial Branch)

[Donovan Zoi]

Here is Section E of the DG2 Code of Laws. This section deals with the Judicial Branch. Please propose any modifications that will make for a better ruleset, as well as identify any passages that are no longer needed.

E.   The Judicial Branch 
   1.   The judiciary is comprised of three members, the Chief Justice, the Public 
   Defender and the Judge Advocate. 
   2.   All members of the judiciary share several rights and responsibilities. 
       A.   Post polls and discussion on interpretations of the Constitution, Code 
       of Laws, and Code of Standards. 
       B.   Do not have Deputies but may appoint Pro-Tem officials (Pro-Tem 
       Justice, Pro-Tem Defendant and Pro-Tem Advocate) if they are unable 
       to fulfill their duties. Pro-Tem officials have all of the rights and 
       responsibilities of the officials they are filling in for but are a temporary 
       position and must surrender their pro-tem status upon the request of the 
       official. 
       C.   Participate in Judicial Review to determine the legality of proposed 
       amendments, laws and standards. 
       D.   Initiate and participate in Judicial Review to interpret and clarify 
       existing amendments, laws and standards. 
       E.   Initiate and participate in Judicial Review to dismiss investigations as 
       having "No Merit". 
       F.   Post Legislative polls that have passed Judicial Review. 
   3.   The Chief Justice 
       A.   Perform as needed in the positions of Public Defender and Judge 
       Advocate in the absence of either official. 
       B.   Is responsible for posting the current full census and current active 
       census at the beginning of each term. 
       C.  Is responsible for updating and maintaining the Judicial Log. 
       D.  Is responsible for monitoring investigation threads to keep them on topic 
       and accurate. 
   4.   The Public Defender 
       A.   Is tasked with ensuring all public investigations are performed correctly 
       with deference to the presumed innocence of the accused. 
       B.   Will ensure that the accused understands the charges against them and 
       what rules were purportedly broken so the accused can mount a valid 
       defense. 
       C.   Will perform as defender, if so wished by the accused. 
   5.   The Judge Advocate 
       A.   Is tasked with the mechanics of investigation and trial. 
       B.   Will open and close discussions and polls as appropriate to the trial. 
       C.   Will perform as prosecutor (gather and present evidence) for 
       anonymous accusers. 
   6.   Judicial Review 
       A.   A quorum requires the attendance of all 3 members of the judiciary. 
       B.   Review of proposed amendments and laws. 
           1.   2 of 3 must agree that the amendment or law does not conflict 
           with existing amendments, laws and standards. 
           2.   If a proposal is rejected due to conflicts it is returned to the 
           Congress with detail of the conflicts noted. This proposal may 
           then be edited and resubmitted for Review. 
           3.   If a proposal is approved through Judicial Review it is posted 
           as a Legislative poll(s) by a member of the Judiciary. 
       C.   Review of proposed standards. 
           1.   2 of 3 must agree that the proposal does not conflict with 
           existing amendments, laws and standards. 
           2.   If a standard is rejected due to conflicts it is returned to the 
           sponsor with detail of the conflicts noted. This proposal may 
           then be edited and resubmitted for Review. 
               A.   If the standard is already in the polling process the 
               Legislative Council Vote is declared VOID. 
               B.   If the standard has completed the polling process it is 
               revoked and removed from the Code of Standards. 
       D.   Interpretation and clarification of existing amendments, laws and 
       standards. 
           1.   2 of 3 must agree on the interpretation or clarification. 
           2.   The interpretation/clarification is then entered into a Judicial Log 
           for reference. 
               A.  The Judicial Log may be referenced for further 
               interpretation or clarification but may not be used as 
               criteria for review of proposed amendments, laws and 
               standards. 
       E.   Dismissal of investigations 
           1.   3 of 3 must agree that the accusation shows "No Merit". 
           2.   Specific reasoning for a judgement of "No Merit" must be 
           provided.

 

[Cyc]

In 3.B foll and active census should be replaced with Census, as is being discussed now in the last Article of the Constitution.

Added to 3.C should be that a Judicial Log thread will be posted and stickied by a Mod at the begining of the game and that each CJ will make a post declaring the begining of each Term in that thread. There is no need to have multiple Judicial Logs floating around the Main Forum page. With one Judicial Log, all decisions made during any Judicial Reviews will be located in one thread for easy reference.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by Cyc
Added to 3.C should be that a Judicial Log thread will be posted and stickied by a Mod at the begining of the game and that each CJ will make a post declaring the begining of each Term in that thread. There is no need to have multiple Judicial Logs floating around the Main Forum page. With one Judicial Log, all decisions made during any Judicial Reviews will be located in one thread for easy reference.

I would skip the post at the beginning of each thread actually.

The Judicial Log should contain a summary of all decisions made by a Court during it's term, one post for each decision.

There should also be a Judicial Thread in the Government topic for each term.

I would also scrap section 6 entirely - the Judicial Review and Citizen Complaint process should be in the CoS.

Along with that, remove 2.E

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

A few more thoughts:

As we have shifted to a new form of the Judiciary, we need to remove the JA and PD offices. So ...

-- Remove section 5 entirely.

-- Remove 3.A entirely.

-- Replace section 4 with:
4. Associate Justice
A. Assist the Chief Justice as requested


Complicated, yes?

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by ravensfire


I would skip the post at the beginning of each thread actually.

The Judicial Log should contain a summary of all decisions made by a Court during it's term, one post for each decision.

There should also be a Judicial Thread in the Government topic for each term.

I would also scrap section 6 entirely - the Judicial Review and Citizen Complaint process should be in the CoS.

Along with that, remove 2.E

-- Ravensfire

Do you mean "at the begining of each TERM actually?

Yes, there should be Judicial Threads in the Govt. sub forum, but that statement is not needed here.

 

[Bootstoots]

Only curious, what will be the procedure in electing our new Judiciary? Will it be one poll where the top three are elected and the top one is the Chief Justice, or three separate polls?

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by Bootstoots
Only curious, what will be the procedure in electing our new Judiciary? Will it be one poll where the top three are elected and the top one is the Chief Justice, or three separate polls?

Good question - we need to discuss election procedures somewhere. CoL or CoS though.

Ladies and Gentlemen (looking at donsig and DZ in particular), your preference on this matter?

Personally, CoL.

-- Ravensfire

 

[GenMarshall]

Same thing with the legistlature branch, I wish to keep this part of the COL to the way it is. Here is my reason. This system has not failed us and is more efficent to keep it the way it is.

@Ravenfire - You should look at me about the elections since I am incharge of the Election Office, incase you have forgotten .

IMO, I beleve the election procedures should go and remain in the CoS. Since technicly it is a standard procedure.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by CivGeneral
Same thing with the legistlature branch, I wish to keep this part of the COL to the way it is. Here is my reason. This system has not failed us and is more efficent to keep it the way it is.

@Ravenfire - You should look at me about the elections since I am incharge of the Election Office, incase you have forgotten .

IMO, I beleve the election procedures should go and remain in the CoS. Since technicly it is a standard procedure.

CG, no offense, but I would prefer to see election procedures established as a matter of law, and approved by all citizens. Vague procedures that aren't defined and governed soley by a citizen's office with no responsibilities defined by law is a poor excuse for a Democracy.

Also, note that the structure of the Judiciary has changed. As such, this section cannot apply as written and thus must be also changed.

-- Ravensfire

 

[GenMarshall]

No, The Election procedures should stay in the CoS. The Election Cycles has been going through with no problems in the past.

Also, I dislike changes. I would like to see nothing to be touched.
(I guess that also explains why I have a hidden conservitive twitch)

 

[Bootstoots]

Let's stick the election procedures in the CoL; I think it would be best if we made them a law rather than an easily amended standard.

 

[GenMarshall]

Explain to me Ravensfire and Bootstoots, that putting the election procedures in the CoL would be better?

I dont beleve we should have this as a law. Having it as a standard would be more easyer and would contain less redtape.

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by Cyc


Do you mean "at the begining of each TERM actually?

Yes, there should be Judicial Threads in the Govt. sub forum, but that statement is not needed here.

Did you miss this one, ravensfire? Your statement was rather vague. Can you please explain your train of thought here?

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by Cyc


Did you miss this one, ravensfire? Your statement was rather vague. Can you please explain your train of thought here?

Whoops - sorry Cyc. Yeah, I saw it and just didn't respond. My bad!

You are, of course, correct. Which is probably why I didn't respond.

My thanks as always!
-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by CivGeneral
Explain to me Ravensfire and Bootstoots, that putting the election procedures in the CoL would be better?

I dont beleve we should have this as a law. Having it as a standard would be more easyer and would contain less redtape.

Good question CG. I'll try.

There are two core concepts to Democracy. First, that the People determine who their leaders are. Second, that there is a peaceful transition from one government to another.

The election process covers both of those (excepting, of course, the military coup that violently rejects the elections, but we won't go there ).

This process should be clearly defined, and non-trivial to change. We need to determine the timeline for elections, how to handle nominations, debates, voting, runoffs, etc. The election process should NOT be easy to change - it should be something that requires significant thought and effort to change.

As for red tape - that's a wash. It's not going to matter where we put it, the verbage, and thus the red tape, will be the same.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Noldodan]

Are we done here? It certainly looks like no one has anything to add...

 

[DaveShack]

Lets be clear on a couple of points.

The criteria for an election (whether it is multiple choice with the top n vote getters taking office, vs. separate polls for each position) needs to be pretty much cast in stone, because this is the basis for the democracy itself. Likewise, the fact that certain offices must be elected and the length of the term are made a part of the constitution because those rights are so basic that we need to be certain nobody tries to mess with them. The U.S. constitution works this way -- the terms of the President, Senate, and Representatives are fixed by the constitution.

Election procedures, like how nominations and debates are conducted, the schedule of the elections, who opens the poll, etc., should be standards at most, and are the purview of the election office. Even so, as standards they should be subject to review, comment, and authorization by the citizens.

 

[ravensfire]

How does this look to everyone - it incorporates most of the suggestions made.

E.   The Judicial Branch 

  1.   The judiciary is comprised of three members, the Chief Justice, and 2 Associate
       Justices


  2.   All members of the judiciary share several rights and responsibilities. 
       A.   Do not have Deputies but may appoint Pro-Tem officials if they are unable 
       to fulfill their duties. Pro-Tem officials have all of the rights and 
       responsibilities of the officials they are filling in for but are a temporary 
       position and must surrender their pro-tem status upon the request of the 
       official. 
       B.   Participate in Judicial Review to determine the legality of proposed 
       amendments, laws and standards. 
       C.   Initiate and participate in Judicial Review to interpret and clarify 
       existing amendments, laws and standards. 
       D.   Participate in Citizen Complaints.
       E.   Post Legislative polls that have passed Judicial Review. 

   3.   The Chief Justice 
       A.  Is responsible for posting the current census at the beginning of each 
           term. 
       B.  Is responsible for updating and maintaining the Judicial Log. 
       C.  Is responsible for monitoring investigation threads to keep them on topic 
       and accurate. 

   4.   Associate Justices
       A.  Aid the Chief Justice as requested.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

Looks good. I say poll for ratification.

 

[ravensfire]

Ratification Poll has been posted here.

-- Ravensfire