Coming soon: Phoenicia for VP
- Thread starter pineappledan
- Start date
Moi Magnus
Emperor
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- Mar 1, 2015
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I really like the idea, but I'm not convinced by the capacity to infinitely generate new CS.
On top of causing problems for anything that scale with number of CS, this will cause problems to peoples playing with 43civs, or really spamming CSs. It's not like spamming cities come with a cost anyway (other than the settler), since you don't pay maintenance and happiness for the new cities, and don't have to work the tiles so you don't care if the CS have crappy positions. So especially if multiple players have this civs, you can really run out of CS quite quickly...
So my suggestion, assuming it's possible code-wise: The first 5 cities founded/captured are transformed into CS of different kind (maybe exclusive to this civ?). Any additional city is randomly given to an already existing CS among the 5 first ones. (So you expand the territory of existing CS with additional cities).
On top of causing problems for anything that scale with number of CS, this will cause problems to peoples playing with 43civs, or really spamming CSs. It's not like spamming cities come with a cost anyway (other than the settler), since you don't pay maintenance and happiness for the new cities, and don't have to work the tiles so you don't care if the CS have crappy positions. So especially if multiple players have this civs, you can really run out of CS quite quickly...
So my suggestion, assuming it's possible code-wise: The first 5 cities founded/captured are transformed into CS of different kind (maybe exclusive to this civ?). Any additional city is randomly given to an already existing CS among the 5 first ones. (So you expand the territory of existing CS with additional cities).
pineappledan
Deity
They are just the city. You have to protect them/gift to them if you want to do that. They are CS capitals though, so they do have palaces. That means they have better defense on their own than just a regular city.
ok then don’t play it.
None of the issues you bring up are fixable, so I won’t even try. Of course this concept isn’t playable if you have multiple Phoenicia civs active. Of course you can’t play 43 civs mode; there’s only 64 slots. You probably can’t settle a single additional CS in that mode. I never suggested this civ idea would be doable outside standard map and player settings.
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Giving this new lady a spin. Turn 124. I have settled 9 CS, basically filling up the map where I could. I'm actually not as far as I expected, but you actually have the opposite problem from a typical OCC in that you are making settler after settler. I got Stonehenge to start the party, and was able to both found and enhance quite easily (took Beauty, I enhanced on Turn 122). So I have now finished the power expansion phase of the game. I have education, so my CS bonuses have gone up, and I am now ready to finally power my capital.
One thing I will say is I don't care a lick about military techs. The Ottomans are welcome to try and get to me through that wall of beef. Also my military CS feed my units, so I haven't had to make any so far.
One thing I will say is I don't care a lick about military techs. The Ottomans are welcome to try and get to me through that wall of beef. Also my military CS feed my units, so I haven't had to make any so far.
30 turns later (155) I have converted my continent, and have enhanced (going holy land).
The one frustration with having those CS so close is actually the barbarian horde quests. I've had a few TRs actually taken out because of that. Otherwise, I'm just on cruise control at this point, waiting to get explorers to look around the map a bit.
The one frustration with having those CS so close is actually the barbarian horde quests. I've had a few TRs actually taken out because of that. Otherwise, I'm just on cruise control at this point, waiting to get explorers to look around the map a bit.
pineappledan
Deity
Did CTD happen on a city capture? I’m getting that too
No, its happening when I get an open borders request from Ottomans. Whether I accept or refuse its CTDing out. But was a fun run to get the party started. My gut tells me some nerfs are needed, but not as much as I initially thought. Also, I love the music! And...is that your actual voice in the voiceover?
Btw, the reason that religion was so much stronger than I expected, was I forgot that the schriver's gives you faith for allies....so effectively I am getting +4 faith per CS, and that's even counting my faith CS.
pineappledan
Deity
Shall I move Beit Melqart back down to 2
per ally then? Seems my first intuition was right 
Hmm... Sounds either like an issue with the attempted bug fixes to get open borders back up again, or something wrong with the Phillippines' bonus per open borders code. Either way I'm confident in saying that is probably a DLL issue and unrelated to Phoenicia.
The rendition of the Hurrian Hymn was a terrific find, yeah. It's the same song as the Carthage theme, but very different interpretation/composition.
And yeah, that's me in the DOM.
I've got some tests to do on my end before I push out a new version, but @TPangolin has completed the Dawn of Man splash, the map, and the leader diplo screen. I've also got some test code to change the adjectives and player text information for the city-states you make. I'll push a new version tomorrow probably
BiteInTheMark
Deity
First thing, I have to agree with @Moi Magnus , this civ is able to create weird interactions with other civs, especially those with a focus to CS or statecraft.
Picking England with this civ in the game should ridiculously increase your yield output, even if you havnt met Phenician yet. I am not that much worried about beeing unable to plant 30 CS, how often will be this the case, but the effect to the espionage in freedom and statecraft may be becoming weird.
The point Iam more worried about is the "Jack-of-All-Trades" Aspect of this civ.
The UA is the melted result rom Indonesian luxury spawn, an even more powerful version of Siams starting influence for CS and additionally the side effect of the Exchange Markets policy from Statecraft.
The UB has 9 entries for effects, I think no other building in the game comes close to this amount of effects.
The UU is able to give as much extra trade routes as the venetian UA and also solves the supply cap issues every Venice normally have by adding double as much supply cap than generals or admirals give.
The biggest weakness this civ could have (founding a religion) is also covered by the UB. You are not only able to run your capital with the typical Goddess of Beauty or Goddes of Festivals, no, founding a city with a settler is adding one layer of the effect of Goddess of Fertiliy to your capital.
With the capability of theoretically infinite trade routes and the new statecraft ability to get up to +5 influence for each CS trade route, I see no reason to NOT call this civilization overpowered.
Picking England with this civ in the game should ridiculously increase your yield output, even if you havnt met Phenician yet. I am not that much worried about beeing unable to plant 30 CS, how often will be this the case, but the effect to the espionage in freedom and statecraft may be becoming weird.
The point Iam more worried about is the "Jack-of-All-Trades" Aspect of this civ.
The UA is the melted result rom Indonesian luxury spawn, an even more powerful version of Siams starting influence for CS and additionally the side effect of the Exchange Markets policy from Statecraft.
The UB has 9 entries for effects, I think no other building in the game comes close to this amount of effects.
The UU is able to give as much extra trade routes as the venetian UA and also solves the supply cap issues every Venice normally have by adding double as much supply cap than generals or admirals give.
The biggest weakness this civ could have (founding a religion) is also covered by the UB. You are not only able to run your capital with the typical Goddess of Beauty or Goddes of Festivals, no, founding a city with a settler is adding one layer of the effect of Goddess of Fertiliy to your capital.
With the capability of theoretically infinite trade routes and the new statecraft ability to get up to +5 influence for each CS trade route, I see no reason to NOT call this civilization overpowered.
kenneth1221
Warlord
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- Apr 18, 2016
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Just to check -- you've considered the whole enforced one-city-challenge part of the civ in your argument? In VP's fairly wide meta, that seems like a big concern.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
The point is, this civ is similar to other civs but without their weaknesses. Best comparison is of course Venice. It is or atleast was very hard to found with Venice at higher difficulties, with this civ, all you have to do is spam settler and get your UB. With some luck, one of your first CS is a religious one and you should be able to found with ease. Other point, the lack of military supply you normally have with Venice, here you get plenty of for kinda free.
And you always have the ability to capture capitals, which cant be converted. Even if conquering own CS isnt possible, you can plant a settler/CS in front of a foreign capital and use CS units to tank for you own units.
pineappledan
Deity
This comment is a goldmine. I don't agree with much of it.
Of course I was going to give them the monopoly bonus from Exchange Markets. They have no capability to cover ground; how would they compete otherwise?
I like the 9 entries for effects comment. That's only 2 more than the base scrivener's office.
The comparison to Siam isn't even close to accurate.
Besides the base 2 faith, the UB gives the exact same faith per turn as the base scrivener's office. I only increased food. It just unlocks earlier and combines with the UA's ability to cement lots of early CS allies.
I hadn't considered a goddess of fertility build. I was thinking only of Goddess of Beauty, God of War, or Goddess of Festivals. I guess goddess of Fertility could help grow a lot faster, especially if you go authority.
The obvious counterplay for Phoenicia -- besides just killing/nuking him -- is diplomat spam. He has base 65 influence with all his city states, and no bonuses to diplomatic unit production or purchasing. He has 1 city and the same 5 turn cooldown as everyone else. So he's totally reliant on quests and TRs to prevent his own cities from turning on him by a player spamming his allies.
re: the amount of extra TRs his UGP can make, that's pretty hard to say as I haven't resolved the bugs to stop the CTDs that keep happening yet. I would guess you should be able to get >12 by the end of the game, and that's with you faith-buying and using all your free GP selections on Merchant Princes. Between Techs, policies, wonders, and Corporations Venice can beat that easily with his 2x TR multiplier. Strictly speaking, I still think Venice has more TRs.
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
They would gain the ability later anyways (who wouldt pick statecraft with this civ?) and Venice had the exact same problem for a long time and it was ok. Unless you play on large maps, you should be able to still get your starting monopoly with the help of the East India company.
Nothing from the original building really counts in that early stage of the game. Maintaining several CS alliances before turn 100 is only possible if you are extremly lucky with CS missions or barbarian invasions.
Planting 5 cities which is normal for a Tradition game, is a quarantee 10
10 for the capial ON TOP of your normal pantheon pick, which is very obviosly Beauty, Festivals or War. Which is another full instance of faith generation.He dont have to care about any diplomatic unit for atleast 150 turns, cause the AI is typically busy with a lot of other stuff. Another thing is, you get that influence decay stop for free, unlike Austria which have to pay for it. Plant 10 cities, and you have theoretical every 5 turns a diplomat completly for free. Starting from the point you got the trade route influence, you should be able to get atleast 5 times 5 influence cause of your trade routes. The fact you can generate more trade routes, guarantees, that you can gain more influence with CS than anyone else can (except Venice).
12 should be easily achievable. There shouldnt be any problem to stack atleast +300% GP modifier for GD, cause the UB alone will be able to generate +200%.
Even if its only 12.... together with the next ability to generate supply by GD usage, you automatically solve the next problem Venice normally have. +12 GD means +48 supply cap, which is ridicoulus. More than you will have a long time even with a normal tradition empire.
You have literally created a Venice, which is able to cover the territory a normal Venice couldnt do, solve its military supply cap issue, solve its religion founding issue, let others pay for you protection, give it a Indonesian like unique ressource which can be traded for other luxuries, give it the advantages an early game Siam have plus the ability to hold those CS alliances by a completly free Austrian influence decay stop.
And you didnt thin this goes too far?
kenneth1221
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2016
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- 202
How overpowered are you saying this Civ is? An automatic win for a player on Deity? Immortal? Emperor? King?
Venice gets the ability to settle now. Indonesia's real power is in the yields and monopoly bonuses of its resources, which Tyrian Purple doesn't provide, Siam gets yield bonuses and doesn't have to build settlers to get city-state bonuses, and I guess you have a point with Austria. But you could be right, as I still haven't gotten around to playing the Civ and that makes my commentary all theory no practice-- but something tells me that you haven't played the civ either.
pineappledan
Deity
Haha. Well we will see. If it is too much then the Tyrian purple will be the first thing I drop. It’s really just there for flavor; I would be fine with it being dropped, since sukritact’s Phoenicia also gives dyes. It would also shorten the UA description to 3 lines.
I wanted some more reasons to put them on Coast as well, but the AI won’t understand that reward.
I wanted some more reasons to put them on Coast as well, but the AI won’t understand that reward.
Lol. No one has played it. Not really. It’s stable until you go on a conquering spree, which is really strange because I tested that before I released it, and then it caused CTDs after I took out all the print statements. It’s still a work in progress.
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
Not an automatic win, but all the abilities have too much synergy with each other and those synergies are mostly created, atleast in the early game, with no big effort.
Everything from Phoenecia runs in a circle around CS and diplomacy. You found cities your allied with. Your capital immidiatly get yields through these alliances by its UB. The UB helps greatly to create its UU. The UU increases the trade route limit, which increases the capability to get influence and alliances with CS.
Compared with Indonesia, where are the synergies and the power to reach a victory condition? You get luxuries and with it monopolies. Thats benefitial and give yields. The UB only gives another luxury which increase yields. But there is no big synergy with each other. And the UU is simply there. And in my eyes completly crappy.
Look at Austria. You can marry CS, which helps in establishing CS alliances, but nothing else from Austria is synergizing with it. Instead you get more GP, which helps a little bit in getting GD, but the main benefit is more GP in general, which has nothing to do with CS. The UB only gives a bit more yields and a small buff to GP generation, which gets irrelevant in late game after establishing several marriages. And the UU is there cause there have to be a UU, but no synergy.
On the other hand, look at England. Its UA around spies got an insane buff by changing the UB from Factory replacements to the White tower, which gives yields by spy actions. A synergy. And you can here the people saying that civ is overpowered now. The Ship of Line didnt have a synergy with the spy actions, but with the movement and sight buff by its UA. Synergy.
I simply think Phoenecia has too many synergies, which comes at literally no cost.
kenneth1221
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2016
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Lol I know. I'm just saying that balance discussions are speculations until that point.
You keep saying that Phoenecia has no costs. The cost is that you are confined to literally one city the entire game unless you fully commit to conquering foreign capitals, in which case everyone will hate you. But I can't accurately weigh whether that cost adequately counterbalances the bonuses, and frankly, neither can anyone else until the mod is released.
