Communism II

[amadeus]

I recall a few months back I posted a topic entitled "Communism", and I don't think I ever got a response to this simple question:

What is the incentive to try and advance yourself mentally and occupationally in a Communist country, i.e., a country with strong principles of wealth redistribution?

 

[PinkyGen]

Very simple, it's what Comrade Stalin did. If you didn't work, you didn't eat. Rather enlightened.

 

[Gruntboy]

Incentive? Theoretically, it is the intrinsic good of human nature. "From each according to his ability, to each according to their needs" - Lenin.

But in the real world, the party members live high on the hog and poor old Vlad gets 9 grammes of lead to the back of his head for falling aleep under a tractor.

 

[CornMaster]

As I've said before.

The incentive to work is this:

In order for the individual to do better, the country must be doing better. Therefore the better the individual works the better the country does, and eventually the more he will get. Besides the monitary compensation, he gets the gratuide that he's helping out his fellow country people.

Now....if you don't agree....you can go shove it up your christmas chimney. You asked, I answered. I'm not being drawn into another debate.

 

[Flatlander Fox]

No incentive whatsoever...


Most people, when doing badly now, don't really give a crap about the future of the country. Hence the need for secret police to come in and "promote" patriotism...

Communism=Oppression

Christmas Chimney?

 

[Sixchan]

While a Communist, I accept that it is never going to work any time in the foreseeable future. What I believe we should be doing is aiming for a communist type state, so that one day, when our race has matured mentally and technologically, Communism may work.

I have no problems with capitalism, if it is kept so that monopolies don't develop, and there are many small businesses in each industry. The way I see it, workers will be treated better in an effort to keep them, and products will rapidly improve to keep the consumers buying from that company.

If a monopoly develops, workers in that industry will have to work there, and the company can treat them like dirt. Prices will go up and quality goes down, as there is no competition.

 

[amadeus]

There's a differnece between the industrial revolution and today -- people won't work for a company that treats them like dirt.

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
There's a differnece between the industrial revolution and today -- people won't work for a company that treats them like dirt.

[sarcasm]
Nike pays all it's (adult of course) workers good pays for stantard 8-hour workdays
[/sarcasm]

 

[Blackadder]

Many hands make light work, the old saying goes.
This is the simple basis of Communism, the Community.

Thats all Communism should really be about, and the only incentive in an increasingly expensive world. In theory, it's the answer to unemployment at the least, because to get equal wages, you should in theory work for it the same as everyone else.

Me thinks the political leaders should all set examples for their governments..........

 

[Cylore]

Originally posted by Juize


[sarcasm]
Nike pays all it's (adult of course) workers good pays for stantard 8-hour workdays
[/sarcasm]

I'm sure those workers really appreciate your pity, Juize.


About Communism, it seems a little too restrictive to me. I (like most humans) want to be the best I can be, not the best the governments says I can be.

That said, if such a system would provide ALL PEOPLE :love2: in the world with a suitable standard of living free of starvation, tyranny and poverty, I would gladly accept it. I'm a human being first, Capatolist second. Unfortunently, such a utopia is a long ways away.

 

[Sixchan]

There's a differnece between the industrial revolution and today -- people won't work for a company that treats them like dirt.

[sarcasm]
Nike pays all it's (adult of course) workers good pays for stantard 8-hour workdays
[/sarcasm]

Okay first, Juize, I meant in developed countries.

Second, rmsharpe, I admit I was exaggerated when I said dirt.
I meant that they would be given minimum or just above minimum pay to work, and would get very little in the way of a pension etc.

 

[amadeus]

You didn't see my point -- people would NOT work for that company. The balance of power IS in the hands of the consumer, it has just taken many years of experience to learn how much influence we really have.

Example:

Bob's Shoe Market pays seven dollars per hour for a cashier.
Ted's Sock-Porium pays twelve.

Bob is less likely to get as-skilled workers, and more first-time jobs. Ted's Sock-Porium will get cashiers with better mathmatics and comprehension, and "people" skills. It's the free market, and there's more than enough jobs out there.

Now in a Communist society:

Lenny's Burger Joint pays six dollars per hour.
The Mayo Clinic pays six dollars per hour.

Who'd want to be a doctor under this society? Not me. You have to do all this extra work for absolutely no reason, because you will not be advanced. As CornMaster said, though, it is not that all people will work hard to advance the nation.

A society that operates in this fashion punishes the hard-working and favors the lazy.

The ideal system is rational capitalism -- don't invest in countries that support terrorism (North Korea, Iraq, Libya), have poor human rights policies (again, North Korea, Iraq, Libya, China, etc.), because of the lack of industrialization of those nations. Social and economic freedoms operate as one. Business evaluation was recently taken in North Korea. The factories in North Korea operate at only 25% of potential capacity.

Mechanization is going to replace human labor in many fields overseas.

 

[Sixchan]

I do understand, but I don't think you understand me.

Example:

Bob's Shoe Market pays seven dollars per hour for a cashier.
Ted's Sock-Porium pays twelve.

Bob is less likely to get as-skilled workers, and more first-time jobs. Ted's Sock-Porium will get cashiers with better mathmatics and comprehension, and "people" skills. It's the free market, and there's more than enough jobs out there.

My example was:

A worker skilled in selling shoes wants work.

Bob's Shoe Market pays seven dollars per hour for a cashier.
Ted's Sock-Porium doesn't exist.

If the worker's only skill is shoe-selling, he has to work for Bob, who doesn't treat casheirs very well.

I was talking about monopolies. In your example:

Bob will do worse, and raise the pay of workers to above that of Ted. Now people will want to work for him.
Ted does worse, and raises wages for workers in his company, etc.

This is the sort of Capitalism I'm okay with!

Now in a Communist society:

Lenny's Burger Joint pays six dollars per hour.
The Mayo Clinic pays six dollars per hour.

Who'd want to be a doctor under this society? Not me. You have to do all this extra work for absolutely no reason, because you will not be advanced. As CornMaster said, though, it is not that all people will work hard to advance the nation.

Teachers are paid REALLY badly. Why do people want to work as them?

I said that we aren't mature enough mentally to want to do hard work for the same pay as an easy job, even if we (as in everyone) will benifit from it.

That's why I don't think Communism can work now or in the near-future. Someday it will, but not yet.

Small-business Capitalism is the fairest system we've got. We should strive to keep the system like that.

 

[jacques]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
Lenny's Burger Joint pays six dollars per hour.
The Mayo Clinic pays six dollars per hour.

Who'd want to be a doctor under this society? Not me. You have to do all this extra work for absolutely no reason, because you will not be advanced. As CornMaster said, though, it is not that all people will work hard to advance the nation.

Sorry, but I like the idea that a doctor, or a teacher, actually wants to be a doctor because he loves that and wants to heal and help people, ans not because he wants to make a lot of money.

Not everybody is working just for money. Furthermore, I'd rather be a doctor for six dollars than make french fries all the day.

What you say is not a valid argument, because I can say using the same example than you that in those conditions, he who chooses to be a doctor will be a better doctor.

It's not because you are lazy that everybody is.

 

[Flatlander Fox]

Jacques:


Take 1000 doctors, ask them if they would be a doctor for 6 bucks an hour and see if ANY of them would reply "yes"....


Not a one would probably agree.



I think you are a bit too optimistic on human nature.


And after all of that training, I wouldn't work so cheap either. People are not robots, therefore you can't expect them to just agree to equality straight down the line. Unless you have a Stasi or a KGB looking over your shoulder.

When we are all genetically altered to accept everything that the government feeds us, THEN communism will work.

 

[ComradeDavo]

There can be many different incentives:

1)the star trek theory: I'm quite amazed that this is actually screened in America, the Federation is an example of a near pefert communist society!!!

2)in a country such as Britain you get a variance in the quality of housing etc all over the country. a good incentive is that the workers who stive to be a doctor etc get preference to where they would like to live, the skanky workers who spend all day in bed would be at the bottom and so on.

3)cose christians used to do it (communes)

4)what cornmaster said

5)kind of like 2, where the people who sat through loads of education etc get preference to luxury holidays and more time off

6)like 2 and 5, where the more educated citizens would get to do 'fun jobs' like designing computer games and so on.

6)under my kind of communism people would still get luxury goods and so on, for example in return for making jumpers you would get to have a PC game each month and vice versa

and a whole lot more ideas like that!

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by ComradeDavo
2)in a country such as Britain you get a variance in the quality of housing etc all over the country. a good incentive is that the workers who stive to be a doctor etc get preference to where they would like to live, the skanky workers who spend all day in bed would be at the bottom and so on.[/B]

That's nearly the same as a free market -- doctors have better homes than McDonalds employees.

5)kind of like 2, where the people who sat through loads of education etc get preference to luxury holidays and more time off

6)like 2 and 5, where the more educated citizens would get to do 'fun jobs' like designing computer games and so on.

6)under my kind of communism people would still get luxury goods and so on, for example in return for making jumpers you would get to have a PC game each month and vice versa

Yeah, once again -- parts of the free market.

 

[amadeus]

/QUOTE]Sorry, but I like the idea that a doctor, or a teacher, actually wants to be a doctor because he loves that and wants to heal and help people, ans not because he wants to make a lot of money.[/QUOTE]

You like the idea -- few others do.

Not everybody is working just for money.

Everybody is working for money -- or the same effect. For example, charity work is not paid in a national currency -- it is paid in a satisfaction that is obtained by money by other people. Money makes some happy, help makes others.

What you say is not a valid argument, because I can say using the same example than you that in those conditions, he who chooses to be a doctor will be a better doctor.

The doctor and better doctor would get paid the same, though. Why should you punish competence?

It's not because you are lazy that everybody is.

I didn't say I was lazy -- I said I wasn't going to work myself stupid to get the same benefits as an apathetic store cashier somewhere.

 

[Grey Fox]

The best system is a Capitalistic Socialism, like we have here in Sweden. The market is free and there is enough competition for the prices to be fair. The only monopoly that is justified is the liquor business, The State controlles all heavy liquor and that's good I think.
The socialistic system makes medical care almost free, and totally free until the age of 20.
Workers are greatly supported by their respective union.
And rich people pay higher taxes then poor.

I can list a lot more good things about the Swedish system if I only knew more about it

 

[ComradeDavo]

here's a great incentive: in capatilism no body has equal chance, it all comes down to where you are born, therefore if you just for ONCE put yourself in somebodie elses shoes then MAYBE you might just see things differently.

free market = not fair market

Everybody is working for money -- or the same effect

um...that is very untrue, many people work solely to provide for their families

AND WHAT IS THIS DOCTOR THING?????!!!!!!!!!!!

Does it not occur to all you capatilists that maybe, just maybe, doctors do their job because they care about people asides from elves?

That's nearly the same as a free market -- doctors have better homes than McDonalds employees.

You obvioulsy haven't seen the situation in Japan and many other counties then.
note: Japan as example because of the way in large cities such as Tokyo there are large amounts of workers from all areas living in these really small flats!!