Communism II

You Marxist wannabes are choking on your own theory...;)


Actually, if it worked, Communism would be great. Everybody in a harmonious society, earning the same, blahblahblah...


But it is COMPLETELY AGAINST HUMAN NATURE. Survival of the fittest is still hardwired into us. We are just animals.

Eat.
Procreate.
Defecate.
Survive.

And to survive, we must do better than the next guy. So there will ALWAYS be elitists.

Believing in the basic goodness of human beings will get you hurt or dead... People are not good. They survive by stepping on each other to get to their next goal.

And for Communism to work, you need good people with no hopes, dreams, or any will to aspire to anything.
 
What we really need to do is make people realise that the best way to improve the general quality of life is to help others. If we could do that, we might just get somewhere.
 
Polymath,
These are pretty words, and doubtless sincere, but to what point are they offered in this discussion?

The Pro-Communists keep saying that it is good because everyone will have the same things.

The Anti-Communists are correctly pointing out that everyone doesn't neccessarily want or even deserve the same things.

I happen to think that if one person spends seven years becoming a doctor, he is entitled to more compensation for his work than a high-school drop-out who flips burgers or pumps gas. Further, I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could conceive a contrary position to this, let alone offer it for public discussion. To say a high-school drop-out who flips burgers or pumps gas is entitled to the same rate of pay as a doctor is worse than ludicrous, it is openly offensive to the work ethic. An economic system that attempts to enforce this policy cannot be anything but demoralizing and lead to a complete apathy among workers.

The only reason communism gets support from the common man is because he sees it as a way of dragging the elite down to his level, poor. The intellectuals who support it always see themselves as champions of those common men, but only if it is assumed that these intellectuals will be running the show once the revolution is over. The common man will discover then that he has traded one set of masters for another, usually to his detriment.
 
It has been stated often and correctly that capitalism is the exploitation of man by man, and communism is the reverse. FL2 is right in saying a burger kid or checkout chick does not deserve the same pay as a surgeon. Respect as a human being, yes, but not the same pay.

Communism did not work, and will not. Those who cling to it are clinging to a corpse that is getting quite smelly. Live in the rosy past that never existed if you want to, but do not try to drag people into the delusion unwillingly.

It is a matter of common sense and the golden rule versus bizarre dogma and outdated ideology.
 
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
It is a matter of common sense and the golden rule versus bizarre dogma and outdated ideology.

How can you say "equality for all" is an outdated ideology?

Also...the Golden Rule goes against human nature.

Humanity will come around. Hopefully it won't be too late.

For anyone that is interested I'm compiling an ideal government and economic model. It's going to start as Democratic Communism but will incorporate a few Capitalist and Republic ideals to over come "human nature" and "distance/time" which is Communism's biggest enemy.

If people thought with their Brains instead of their Hearts....human nature wouldn't be a problem either....but that's another arguement. :)
 
Oh...
My...
God...

Are you high? Insane? What substance or series of life-altering events has caused you to divorce yourself so totally from reality?

"Humanity will come around. Hopefully it won't be too late. "

Is too late after you have them all executed for not accepting your divine rule?

"For anyone that is interested I'm compiling an ideal government and economic model. It's going to start as Democratic Communism but will incorporate a few Capitalist and Republic ideals to over come "human nature" and "distance/time" which is Communism's biggest enemy. "

Don't you think that a government whose biggest enemy is human nature should maybe be tabled until human nature changes? And distance/time hasn't been a factor in government since the invention of radio. And it won't be a factor until we go interplanetary. Is anything getting through Solipso-God?

"If people thought with their Brains instead of their Hearts....human nature wouldn't be a problem either....but that's another arguement. "

And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bumps it's ass a-hoppin'. But it doesn't have wings, and its ass is sore.
 
Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
Is too late after you have them all executed for not accepting your divine rule?

Please...tell me where in the Communist Manifesto it says you must kill anyone who opposes Communism?

Your confusing the Communist Threoy with Dictatorship pratises.

Don't you think that a government whose biggest enemy is human nature should maybe be tabled until human nature changes? And distance/time hasn't been a factor in government since the invention of radio. And it won't be a factor until we go interplanetary. Is anything getting through Solipso-God?

Did you even read a word I said???

People have always said a blend of Capitalism and Communism (they call it Socialism because the word Communism is so taboo) is the best way to go.

Most Democratic Capitalist countries use this system. What I'm going to do is reverse engenieer the ideal government and economic type. But instead of starting at Republic Captialism, I'm going to start at Democratic Communism.

The end result should be similar to what we have today....but slightly more biased to equality and welfare. And less toward corporations, and class system. It will also have more public participation in government, and the decision making.

And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bumps it's ass a-hoppin'. But it doesn't have wings, and its ass is sore.

Excatly...totally different arguement.

At least you see that my way. ;)
 
You know what? If you want to create a new government, do us all a favor, and make it the new government of FantasyLand. People like you terrify me.

You say you want a government that is very much like 'this one' (so I'm assuming you mean the US), but more inclined toward welfare and equality.

Yet earlier in this thread, equality meant doctors and burger-flippers getting the same wage, and we all know how devastating welfare is to its recipients.

Even casting the above aside, the US is heading in the direction you want it to anyway, so why scrap it and start the whole process over from the opposite end? It's already closer to what you want than it will be if you do... Your proposition makes no sense.

Then again, when did communism EVER makes sense?:rolleyes:
 
I terrify you?

Well...I can finally say someone is afraid of me. ;)

Now......Why don't you just shut your mouth....and stop critizing ideas I haven't even posted yet.

The final government (which has no name, yet) will be closer to Democracy and Communism then the current US system of Republic and Capitalism. It will however includes capitalist and republic ideals to bring the whole plan more down-to-earth to deal with human nature.....and the fierce resistance that comes from older people who fear change.

In the end it's not really going to be like the US system at all....it's going to be the best of both worlds. We don't have it now....and there is no point in trying to dilute yourself to think we do.

US is sort of heading the way I want.....in some respects...but moving farther in others. Canada is moving farther away from what I want and faster then the US.....however in it's current state the Canadian Government and Economic system is still more like what I want, then the US system. If that makes any sence to you...

I'm not saying one is better than the other.....just saying that one is closer to MY ideal type.
 
What is the incentive to try and advance yourself mentally and occupationally in a Communist country, i.e., a country with strong principles of wealth redistribution?

Your statement above has a contradiction in it that renders it a bit ridiculous. Communist countries do not redistribute wealth, they appropriate it. Every one that has ever existed has always amassed huge quantites of wealth at the expense of its citizenry.

Socialist (or better named, "Social-Democratic") governments like Sweden do re-distribute wealth and there is much advantage to such systems. No communist state in Europe, Asia, the Americas or Africa has ever re-distributed the wealth it has seized from it own population.

That said, what is the incentive to try and advance yourself mentally or occupationally in a communist country? Virtually none. The communist education systems of Eastern Europe were almost exclusively focused on vocation; we had to take two subjects in university - often completely unrelated - just so post-graduation job placement was easier. Technically, one didn't have to take the job offered by the system after school but not to do so was vocational suicide - though some got through the cracks. I recall several car mechanics outside Warsaw in the 1980s who had PhDs in literature but were able to make more money fixing foreign imported cars (owned mostly by the upper echelons of the PZPR/Party) than working in the university. All jobs - ALL! - required certification of some sort. Food market shelf cashiers, interior designers, truck drivers, postal workers, waitresses, department store clerks - all needed certification. This meant that while in the West your waitress in a restaurant might be a student paying for her rent or an oldr retired person making extra money, in Communist Eastern Europe was doing the job they would always have until their death. Almost no hope for advancement, no chance to change vocations - you were locked in. This explains the phenomenally bad service in the communist countries. This also reveals the glaringly obvious inefficiency of such a system, and why almost everyone (including most Party members) had to work and deal secretly on the black market for basic necessities. This is why when the Soviet Army crossed the Pruth River into Romania in 1944, Stalin had to send special political commissars to explain to the troops why poor, backward and impoverished Romania - one of the poorest states of Europe then - had a countryside brimming with food production and the cities (even during the war) had shops full of food and luxuries. This was a sight no Russian had seen since before World War I. During Stalin's day, the Leninist principal was to keep workers as close to subsistance level as possible. Workers only a few steps away from starvation are less able to protest or resist the regime, and it costs the state less to keep them. Despite communist propaganda, the workers' living standard is not important to the state, only their productivity - because in communist societies, the state is the alpha and the omega.

Because like all dictatorships the communist regimes feared intellectuals, who could organize effective opposition to the regime, the communists of Eastern Europe leveled the pay scale for intellectual jobs. For example, when I was a translator at the government press agency, those of us who translated news stories between Polish, English, Russian, German, French, etc. were paid exactly the same as the old women (4 of us, 6 of them) who would take our completed computer print-outs in a cart downstairs on the elevator. We had university degrees, they none - but we all made the same money. At least they were nice, and they constantly kept my tea glass full. :D

Because of a medical university nearby in my own university days we had constant contact with students from all over the Third world, and I recall one evening in particular when several had a discussion with some Laotians and Vietnamese, and we came to the conclusion that the system was more or less the same there.

I've said it a million times and I'll say it again - communism doesn't work. It has been tried by people in several societies and has failed miserably, causing misery and death in its path.
 
Originally posted by Vrylakas
I've said it a million times and I'll say it again - communism doesn't work. It has been tried by people in several societies and has failed miserably, causing misery and death in its path.

I've also said this a million times. Try Communism in a Democratic country that's NOT a dictatorship (Which virtually all Communism's have been) and it can work.

Not sure if you were addressing me or not.
 
"and the fierce resistance that comes from older people who fear change. "

Actually, Cornmaster, it is the older people who have lived through the mistakes of the past and recognize that repeatedly unearthing failed policies only brings about more disfunctionalism. Younger people tend to be much more ideolistic, which is great, but often have no understanding of reality and the world around them, and the world yesterday. So when you graduate H.S., and college, and get a job, and have children, you will also realize that change is not always good, and "humanity [that will come around]" may never.

~Chris
 
But change is good sometimes.

Once, long ago, Democracy was an ideology.
 
Communism, "democratic" or not, will not work if that form of government is forced upon people, unlike capitalism -- in which capitalism can work with heterogeneous political philosophies. Capitalism is a moderate between Libertarianism and Communism, not an exact opposite.
 
as usual ,knowing that this thread is about Communism ,i gonna side with Cornmaster here.It's not that i am a big supporter of the "communism" some people think to know it.Some people associate communism with the goverment form Russia had in Stalin's time.Stalin was a dictator ,not a true communist.Also i believe there has never been a true form of Communism on this world ,never.The Communism experiment has IMO never failed ,simply because i think it has never existed.
No'r is my idea of communism the same as marx's was ,just because IMO Marx is outdated.instead i only want to copy the ideoligy Marx had in his invented goverment ,that is that evrybody should be equal ,even in a materialistic way.
So if you have a bad imprssion of the general word "communism" ,then don't use that word to associate the bad impression's you have with my idea of a more perfect society.

Communism: In my personal dictionary discribed as a ECONOMICAL SYSTEM that strive's for materialistc equality ,in this sence it's differnt than capitalism ,a ECONOMICAL SYSTEM that devide's materialism according to the financial status of the person itself.
Ethicly i feel that the economical system that is Communism is more correct and justified than capitalism.
Communism (no'r capitalism) is NOT automaticly A POLITICAL SYSTEM.
As thus ,in theory ,it's perfectly possible to combine the Economical system that is communism with the political System that is Democracy. (but democracy is to current norm's actually republic)

Capitalism is a economical system that has IMO not proven itself to "work".capitalism seems only to "work" in a few country's on this world ,while it's theoreticly implemented all over the world.Country's as Zaire or Etheopia are also considerd Capitalistic nation's.
No'r do i believe that a system (political ,social or economical) can ever prove itself to work.Simply because a "prove" that it work's would imply that the system has always worked in every situation in a perfect way,and will always work in a perfect way.In this diffinition ,only a perfect system can prove itself to "work" ,as a perfect system would always work ,even within 1000's of years.
One that states that "Capitalism" work's can only talk about the present time ,but can not prove that this system will work within another 1000 years.Easily ,a Russian inhabitant could in 1950 state that his system worked ,as at that present time it did.
We are only at the beginning of the globalization proces ,and already it prove's to have heavy consequence's on local capitalistic system's all over the world.

as only a perfect system could work ,it would have to be build around perfect ideoligy's and system's.
in this i see equality as a perfect ideoligy ,while i find un-equality a fault into a system goverment ,one that eventually has to lead toward's the disbanding of the system.

the future will be the judge of this debate ,and eventually i think a system that has included the ideoligy of equality will prevail above it's predecessor.

Social engineering will always be an ongoing deed ,because never a govermental system will be perfect ,as thus never a govermental system will prove itself to work.the only thing a govermental system can achieve is to "work" better that it's predecessor.

Capitalism will NOT survive the test of time.It will die to my estimate in about 20 year's.In it's place will come Or an extention to capitalism ,with some other fundamental principle's ,or a radicly differnt system.
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
Communism, "democratic" or not, will not work if that form of government is forced upon people, unlike capitalism -- in which capitalism can work with heterogeneous political philosophies. Capitalism is a moderate between Libertarianism and Communism, not an exact opposite.

Guess what.....I agree.

A government or economic system WILL NEVER prevail once forced on the people. And even if it is....a lot of people will put up with it. Like 60-70% of the people would have to be upset from something that major to be overturned.

And over time the stress gets compressed until it explodes into a revoloution. Like Russia in the late 1910's and 1980's.

That said.....Six aka Sixchan I believe. ;) Has a point. What is sometimes an ideology, turns into a workable system. Hopefully everyone will like the system of government and economy that I will eventually draft. ;)
 
I'm not suprised that you agree.

If someone doesn't support communal ideals, naturally, they will steal and cheat at every possible juncture to further themselves.

Communism, is only a good system under which everyone agrees that it is -- otherwise it is certain to fail.
 
Cornmaster wrote:quote:
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Originally posted by Vrylakas
I've said it a million times and I'll say it again - communism doesn't work. It has been tried by people in several societies and has failed miserably, causing misery and death in its path.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've also said this a million times. Try Communism in a Democratic country that's NOT a dictatorship (Which virtually all Communism's have been) and it can work.

Most of the countries conquered by the Communists in 1945-49 had Democratic experience, one of them (Czechoslovakia) among the most in Continental Europe at that point. Why would a successful democracy decide to be ruled by a dictatorship of the proletariat? And what of countries like the U.S. who have largely absorbed their working class into the Middle Class?

It can't work, because many of the premises are mutually-exclusive, a reality that Lenin had to struggle with in applying Marxist rules. Communism purports to level the distribution of a society's wealth in an equitable manner (pun intended) and since so doing will eliminate crime, nationalism, state rivalries, etc. there is no need for a state or government to exist. However, changing any currently-existing society to fit the communist mold is a major act of social engineering, requiring a powerful state using ruthless force. (I refered to this once in a paper as performing major surgery on a person using garden tools.) Marx thought proletarians would spontaneously unite and organize to re-form their society, but Lenin and Mao understood the need for the vanguard party and police state that relied on ruthless terror. Lenin admitted before he died that the state (contrary to Marx) would probably have to remain a permanent facet of communist life. Odd, how dictators almost always reach that same conclusion, that they are just too important to go away. The Russian, Chinese and Cuban models of communism are not exceptions, they are the rule.

Second problem: Why are you relying on a 19th century theory of an industrializing socio-economy to explain a 21st century post-industrial reality? Communism was a Western theory born of a reaction to the massive tumult of rural people being forced by economic circumstances into the city factories, and working in inhuman conditions - but in the 21st century, the average Westerner is a white collar or service sector worker working in shockingly humane conditions for decent wages and living a life that people throughout history would be very envious of indeed. The Communism of Marx, Proudhon, Owens, Fourier, Lenin, Mao, Debbs, etc. was the Communism of class disaffection but the social ills and conditions that fed communist unrest are largely history in the West now. Heavy industry itself has moved on to the Third World, which calls into question your assertion that Communism will be successful when a Democratic country succumbs. Do well-fed and largely content office workers revolt?

Corn, communism is a utopian ideology doomed to the history books. Every society will have inequalities because not all jobs and not all abilities are equal. The best we can hope for is having governments who limit and mitigate the ability of entities to accumulate mass amounts of wealth and power - which is what the Democratic governments of the West do now. No, they are not perfect, but that's the point, that no human society can ever be perfect. I know it's nice to dream of a society where special interests do not exist, where corrupt politicians, black markets, poverty, ethnic hostility, and sensationalist journalists do not exist, but these kinds of things do exist because people are people. Our current societies are able to deal with these phenomena better than any other ever has, and Democracy (linked to an open-market economy) has shown itself extremely adaptive and reformable over the past 200 years. No single magic political or economic theory is going to solve all our social ills with a snap of the fingers and a quick revolution.

I do not anticipate a "Peoples Dominion of Canada" any time soon...

Not sure if you were addressing me or not.

No, it was not particularly pointed at you. My final statement was born of a bit of frustration that we've had this same thread again, with the same people arguing.
 
Originally posted by Vrylakas
No, it was not particularly pointed at you. My final statement was born of a bit of frustration that we've had this same thread again, with the same people arguing.

I agree.....who would agree to not discuss Capitalism vs. Communism for at least one month?

The same arguements have been said by the same people over and over and over again......It is getting VERY repetitive. I can close any new topics, without ban. If we can sign a temporary truce.

Anyone up for it??? Or shall we continue fustrating each other with the same arguements?
 
I just wanna chuck my cents in.


What you anti-communists have got to understand, is that when we say things will be evenly distributed, it means fairly.

My ideal communist system, would make it work that the more work you do, the more you get paid. But however, everyone would have the chance to work as others. Also, deserving work would get paid more, eg. Doctors, who stuck it in for the extra 7 years of education, would receive a bonus for doing those extra 7 years, eg, they would drive a better car or whatever. This would encourage everyone to stick it in at school and consequently the average intellegence would increase. Now as i said before, everyone would have an equal opportunity. Not everyone is smart, but beefheads could also get bonus's for extra hard work or whatever...
Now the hard part is, making sure a ranking system does not evolve from this sorta 'credit' system.
 
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