Community Input on Peace and Diplomacy

[cracker]

We have had several very vocal opponents who have actively expressed discontent and dissatisfaction with the changes that have been implemented to the GOTM games.

Although the response to the changes has generally been 75-85% favorable, what would be some suggestions as to things we could do or say that might help to reestablish contact with the these dissatisfied players while still maintaining the important positive momentum and inclusive features that we have worked so hard to establish??

What can we do to identify those groups of players who may not currently be participating in the GOTM games for various reasons and then how can we do things to help reach out and integrate these players into the community in a way that lets them feel comfortable with the monthly cycel of events?

Are there any groups of players that are being actively excluded by choices that we are currently making and if so how could we eliminate these barriers to participation without giving up the important aspects of a focused single game of the month event that is presented over a wide range of difficulties and map conditions?

If you could identify just two other players who you would like to see playing the GOTMs but who may not be currently active, who would these players be and how would you recommend that we go about approaching them to join or rejoin the active player community of the GOTM?

 

[Bamspeedy]

Well, I only know probably 2 people that would apply to this group. The GOTM should steer towards what the majority wants. Just because someone is more vocal about things, doesn't mean we should cater to only them. For some things, we could perhaps do what they want for a game here and there, but not necessarily for every game. For example, if one person doesn't participate because we don't play deity level every game, that is that individual's problem and that demand would be unreasonable. Yes, we should play deity every once in awhile, but certainly not every game. Same goes for map sizes. Some games play small maps, some games large maps. As long as you offer a variety, more people get an opportunity to play at least some of the time if they want, but you aren't taking it to the extreme every single game to cater to a minority (like only playing small maps, or only playing large maps). Some people may not like playing with so many civs/crowded maps, so sometimes we should have games on less crowded maps/fewer civs.

If I don't like something, like let's say the QSC scoring system, and I choose not to participate in the GOTM at all, just because of that one thing, that is my choice and it would be ridiculous to think that you should change everything because of a 1 person boycott. Everything you do is going to make some people happy, and some unhappy. The trick is to find what makes the most people happy (and figure out the difference between those that really are happy/unhappy, and those that could just care less one way or the other). There are many people that don't really care, and just give you a favorable response because they just want to be nice.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by cracker
We have had several very vocal opponents who have actively expressed discontent and dissatisfaction with the changes that have been implemented to the GOTM games.

When it comes to Peace and Diplomacy, there is no easy solution. If it's easy, we would have peace in the Middle East many decades ago. No matter what anyone do, there shall always be some people who are not so happy about it. Again, I'm not saying that they are wrong or anything because I'm sure that they have valid concerns and valid reasons. Basically, people don't just wake up one day and decide that "I'm going to be unhappy today" (I know some of you guys think that about women, but those are just myths). Therefore, it would be helpful if you can state some of their concerns or dissatisfaction. May be a compromise can be made if we know what is troubling them. Again, I'm not asking for name and I'm not looking for any flame war, I just want to know more about the issue so that we can come up with a compromise that we all can live with and hopefully the next generation of players will have more peace and harmony than us.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by cracker
If you could identify just two other players who you would like to see playing the GOTMs but who may not be currently active, who would these players be and how would you recommend that we go about approaching them to join or rejoin the active player community of the GOTM?

I'd be careful about this. The way that is worded, may cause some people to list specific people, and I don't think we want that (may cause flame wars and stuff). Specific names should be limited to PM's and emails, if names have to mentioned at all.

Like Moonsinger said, I don't know exactly what situations you are referring to, except for some examples I alluded to in my first post. Perhaps you could give some more 'general' examples(not mentioning names, etc.) of what you may be refering to.

 

[rabies]

I would have to agree with Bamspeedy and Moonsinger on this. You cannot make everybody happy, and you will only cause yourself undue stress trying. Let the number of submissions per month be the judge - and if I am not mistaken, they are going up. This should be the testament to the work you put in - and you should be proud. I believe the majority enjoys the GOTMs - and will for quite sometime.

If a person does not participate in the GOTM due to lack of challenge, or the rules don't impose enough restrictions to make it fun for them, you will only alienate the weaker players in attempting to cater to those who want that ultimate challenge.

 

[Ambiorix]

I can only agree with what is being said. Main point is to clearly define the objectives of the GOTM, and then stick to them.
Pleasing every single person within the GOTM context can't be an objective.
I would rather say that the set of GOTM, tournament, succesion game, democracy game, ... could have the global objective of together reaching as many people as possible, but GOTM alone can't do that. If it would become a one-size-fits-all, it would loose a lot of its flavor.
That again doesn't mean that a person or a small group op people can't come up with a good idea to make the game better, but if it's just a matter of 'you should do this because *I* like it like that', then don't bother.
My gut feeling is that most people are very happy with the way the GOTM is going.
Just my 2 euro-cents.

 

[hotrod0823]

One thing that strikes me is how different the GOTM has become and I think that maybe it needs to be reintroduced to those players that have once played and maybe don't realize that things have changed for the better. Sure, you can't please all the people but I think by not at least trying to bring more players into the GOTM community we all lose out on what could be benificial debate and discussion about playing Civ3 and improving everyones overall game.

There are many great players that do play GOTM regularly and then there are others that have left for one reason or another and haven't returned. .

I don't think it is about pleasing everyone or 1 person individually but I do think that some of the reasons people have chosen to not participate recently may be more about the past GOTM history and many past concerns have been aliveiated and everyone who has left should be given the option to take another look. And encouraged to do so.

I understand peoples opinions like "take it or leave it, play or don't play it doesn't matter to me". That is fine but I think every organization should strive for continuous improvement. Things have improved. Games are more fun, discussions more educational and animated. Spoilers etc. more structured. There is a buzz about it. All these things are great and shouldn't be changed but I don't think we all should sit back and say "Isn't this great!".

 

[Moonsinger]

No offend to anyone, but sometimes people complain because they don't quite understand about the problem that they are complaining about. It usually is just a little misunderstanding, that's all. For example, whenever someone mention some thing about citizen happiness, someone would immediately associate that with milking. Well, they are not exactly wrong, but they aren't exactly right either. Yes, milking does have something to do with citizen happiness. However, as far as the QSC is concern, milking has absolutely nothing to do with the QSC and I'm not just saying that. If anyone don't believe me, please read my QSC timeline for the GOTM#19 (I will post it in the first spoiler thread when it opens in May 5th). Yes, I'm a milker and I often milk my game, but the QSC period is really a bad time for milking. Yes, you can milk your game during the QSC time frame, but if you do that, you would very likely lower your score. Just remember that if you raise your luxuries to keep your citizen happy, you would make less gold income. Less gold income means less unit upgrade -> which means less power to your civ -> which means you have to pay tribute to the AIs -> less in your treasury -> etc. Sure, you may gain a few extra happiness point, but you lose quite a bit of point for your empty treasury. In the end, it's all balance out. Therefore, I'm very sure that the happiness point reward in the QSC new scoring system isn't about giving better reward to milkers. I know some of you have raise some valid concern about the new QSC scoring system for giving reward points to game with the most happy citizens. However, I can asure you that it has nothing to do with promoting the dairy industry.

 

[RufRydyr]

How bout a 'why i quit playing gotm' thread? Let them say in there own words. Maybe start the thread with a poll and see if there's some things in partcular that they don't like.

Of course, the other possibility is to try to piss off more people. The less people that play, the easier it is to compile stats. ---Just kidding.---

 

[Moonsinger]

I also want to say that the GOTM Staffs are volunteering their time to help creating this playground for us. Since Cracker like any other GOTM Staffs are humans just like the rest of us, they may make mistake now and then, but that's perfectly understandable and forgivable. It's not like they are sucking our bank account dry or anything like that. I'm sure they would welcome any contructive criticism from us. However, please do think twice before condemning to them to the eternal hell.

PS: I'm just kidding about the eternal hell thing.

 

[mad-bax]

It's not just disaffected people who have stopped, it's also to do with people who haven't started. It's damn scary joining and taking part in this forum. A newbie has to be quite brave to take the plunge. I think the standard of play in GOTM is good, perhaps too good in that it is not representative of the actual ability of the civving community. I'm not saying it is elitist, just that it can appear that way from the outside. Perhaps it would be possible to make it clearer than it already is that people of all abilities are welcome to join in. Maybe it would be possible for someone from the GOTM staff to PM a new poster to the forum just to say hi. And maybe (but less likely) perhaps volunteer experienced players could be assigned less experienced players to keep an eye on. They don't even have to be told that they have been assigned, just someone willing to make sure that when they post questions, or synopsis of their games that someone will answer the question, or comment on their play in a constructive and inclusive way.

Another reason people don't play is that 40 - 50 hours of gameplay in one month for people who are married with children is rarely feasible. For others also of course. There is no way round this other than to allow retirement ( and yes I know the argument aginst it), or to have a highest no win/lose score at a specific date medal or something. A bit like a QSC to say 1600AD without the typing.

As a fairly new player and poster I feel as if I am barely tolerated in this forum by some of the players and moderators alike. This could be down to me being an a@*hole, but if it is then I would expect to get that feeling in the tournament forum, and I don't. It's much more lighthearted and "Pally" there for some reason. Typing this I feel as if I am writing an exam paper, why is that?

Really, this place needs to lighten up a bit and not take itself quite so seriously, it is only a game after all.

So, despite being frightened to post here I do anyway, but that's because I am thick skinned and I am determined to learn. In the end I guess that's why I'm here. If I want fun, then I play the tournament.

Do I get a RPITA award for this cracker?

P.S. Just because it's impossible to please everyone all of the time, that is no reason not to try.

 

[TedJackson]

Seems to me that it's the age old problem of balancing "change for change's sake" and "It ain't broke, why fix it?".

I can only speak for myself and I've only been playing for a few months but I'm happy with the way things are and the direction we seem to heading.

I can imagine that some people have built up a play style/recipe that perhaps no longer works as well under new rules and/or conditions but that's a problem for them to resolve.

As the number of GOTM entries seems to be rising month on month even though the difficulty level is rising, it would appear that you are doing something right.

I guess you really can't please all of the people all of the time.

If you really want to draw more people in then I guess you'll have to "market" GOTM more aggressively.


regards

Ted

 

[kryszcztov]

Originally posted by cracker
Are there any groups of players that are being actively excluded by choices that we are currently making and if so how could we eliminate these barriers to participation without giving up the important aspects of a focused single game of the month event that is presented over a wide range of difficulties and map conditions?

Well, I may be off-topic and ignored once again, but................ using a French software, I can't take part in GOTM, QSC etc... I know I can fix the problem by myself, but I don't know how. If anyone knows how to make my game 100% compatible with the American PTW one, I'll thank him/her a hundred of times. PM me please if you do have a clue. I've already missed 2 GOTM, and this is the 3rd one.
I can start a thread (why not sticky) in the GOTM forum if someday I'm ok for GOTM, so as to explain to other players who may be in my situation how to deal with it.

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaank you !

 

[Foklens]

I can not, and will not, profess to speak for anyone but myself. I can only recount my position and offer suggestions as to what would have made me participate sooner.

First, the obligatory background. GOTM 19 is my first submission. Which isn't the same as saying that it was my first GOTM. Not at all. I've been playing since about 14 or so. Every month I'd actively snap up the download and have at it. I'd read the chats, I'd follow the strategy - Hell, I'd even follow the 'rules' for when to read one. The thing is, I'd never submit my game. And make no mistake, this wasn't an "Oh, I forgot" or a "I ran out of time." I typically will be done the GOTM a few days after it's come out, such is my CivAddiction. I just would make the cognative choice to not submit it. Why? Easy. I'm a competative guy. I like a challenge. I like contests of wit and strategy. I love to be challenged and have to think my way out of situations I can't get my all-purpose chainsaw in range of. All of that said, I just never saw a point of immasculating myself on such a grand scale. What I mean by that is, say there's a game. And it's a modified map, and it's helluhard, on Deity level. Okay, that's above my normal choice for play, but I'll go along with it. Now, to my way of thinking, I'd rather spend my time worrying about playing so far out of my league, staying competative, and not getting wiped out by the AI before I can get out of the stone age. I'd like to play the game, without having to worry about how I'm going to stack up to people who are inevitably going to get tens of thousands of points. The best I've ever gotten, ironically, is somewhere around three thousand - and that was playing an Emperor game. To me, and myself, that's a great accomplishment for myself. Like, god damned pop the champagne I not only survived an Emperor game but won it. And got my best showing ever against well, myself. Now, I turn around all proud and pleased with myself and submit it. And...gee, I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack. Yay. 97th place. Whee. Suddenly, that enthusiasm has been dealt a crippling blow and I'm going to be over in the corner crying now. Sure, it's admitably hyperbole, but the fact is it's about how I feel. And knowing this going in, knowing that you're incapable (Unwilling?) of scoring above 10K (Nevermind nearish 30K) where's the motivation on my part to participate? Someone the other day tried to do it as a metaphor of the Boston Marathon, but really I disagree with that for one difference. I can play and compare myself against the GOTM faithful without posting, without participating, without talking - and know where I finish in comparison to them. I can't however, tell you how I'd place in the Marathon. And that's where I find the greatest bit of discomfort with the GOTM games. The fact that no matter what I do, no matter how good I am, I'm not going to get 1st place. My philosophy of playing precludes me from going out of my way to maximize my score. My philosophy is to win the game, defeat the AI, and make sure my Civ is the last one standing, and have fun doing it.

I don't know if there's others out there who share this thought, but maybe there are. Again, I can't tell you how to please everyone. I can only suggest what would have made me submit and get into it sooner. As it is, the reason I did submit for 19 was because of the new scoring system and the idea that maybe I didn't get 97th place. (I likely did, I was only concerned with survival, and beating the thing on Emperor just so I could say "Nyah, I did it!"). What I would suggest, as a possible addition, would be the creation of a time-period based tiering. When you release the scoring and standings, you could divide up the results into the various existing categories, and then add a new section where all games ending on a certain date are ranked. For instance, if I (Hypothetically) managed to defeat the computer in 1752AD, then my final score would be placed against all the other games that ended between 1650-1800 (Someone more technically minded would be better for picking the amount of 'turns', I'm just being general). That way, when I get my 97th overall placement and start throwing things - I can seek solace that while my score is divisible by ten of the one who won, I can think to myself that hey at least I got third place in my time-period. That for me, would be the kicker, because then I wouldn't be ashamed of my 97th place finish when measured against those who run the clock down. I could measure against people who had an end around when I managed to. I wouldn't advise the same thing in terms of win conditions though, because those could still be 'milked'.

Something like that would have made me submit my game before now, and that's about all I can recommend. As for being an active poster in the boards, I doubt that would ever happen. I've never been fond of being the outsider, and there's a tangible 'family' and group already established here who can communicate using vowels or strange abbreviations I've no clue about. Familiarity and all that. And that's not an indictment at all for them, I think it'd be great to be one of said group. But from the outside looking in, it's daunting and intimidating. Or well, okay. That's an unfair statement. Such is the way it seems, and often feels. But, that's just mine own thoughtlings on the matter. Hope it helps.

 

[Renata]

Hmmm, for anyone reading this who feels the same way as foklens and mad-bax (about feeling like outsiders) -- you shouldn't really, I don't think. I mean, I post stuff all the time, have diarrhea of the keyboard, and I never know whether anyone's bothering to read it or not -- but what does that really matter? Everyone feels new at first, but keep posting for a few months, with or without significant responses, and the new people coming in will assume *you're* one of the insiders and hold *you* in awe - that's just the way things work. Personally I'd love to have everybody post strings of 'great game Renata!'s at the end of everyone of my posts, but that's not gonna happen. So I give my reports just to share my pride in what I accomplished, however good or bad that may be in an absolute sense, and know in my heart that someone out there is reading it, because, heck *I* read every word of every report and I can't be the only one!

The more you put into it, the more you will get out in the end, even if it takes time to make your mark.


That said, on to the actual topic of the thread. Others have already said it better than I could; I basically agree with the sentiments expressed in the early posts. There's one thing I should add, but it's probably better in a PM.

Renata

 

[Borealis]

I don't know how to address most of this, but perhaps a 'list of commonly used acronyms' detailing nomenclature such as MMing=micromanaging, etc., could be posted by the mods after people band together to create suggestions?

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by mad-bax
It's not just disaffected people who have stopped, it's also to do with people who haven't started. It's damn scary joining and taking part in this forum. A newbie has to be quite brave to take the plunge.
...
As a fairly new player and poster I feel as if I am barely tolerated in this forum by some of the players and moderators alike.

Originally posted by Foklens
I've never been fond of being the outsider, and there's a tangible 'family' and group already established here who can communicate using vowels or strange abbreviations I've no clue about. Familiarity and all that. And that's not an indictment at all for them, I think it'd be great to be one of said group. But from the outside looking in, it's daunting and intimidating. Or well, okay. That's an unfair statement. Such is the way it seems, and often feels.

Mad-bax and Foklens, your posts here are great. Insightful and very welcome to me and many others I'm sure!

I still remember clearly how I felt these things when I first started posting here. I barely brought myself to dive in. I think it is especially hard if one has not participated in an online community like this before. That was the case for me and I imagine is the case for many members here.

I think the scariness and feelings of being an outsider must be fought and conquered. They aren't real! I don't mean to minimize them though. I think the most considerate and thoughtful people will often be the most worried and scared to post, due to those same elements in their nature. It really is a brave step for a newcomer to take the plunge. But do go for it!

I think something which is amplifying the problem for new posters is the sheer size our community has reached. Because of the size, everyone worries about posting "noise" (offtopic or perceived to be unimportant or uninteresting.) We're sensitive to the volume of posts facing everyone. This problem makes it scarier again for new posters because:
1) The structure and overall feel of the GOTM forum discourages opening new threads or veering much off topic. As I think it must with such a large group.
2) When newcomers post, there may be very few or even no replies which specifically address their post. I think it is sad if this happens - I think most of the more active members would love to see each newcomer properly welcomed. But we hold back on posting "off topic" and end up being too quiet unless there are direct GOTM issues or questions raised in a post.

I don't know how to improve these things. The underlying problem of being such a large community is considerable. The only things I can think of are:

1) New posters: Please do dive in! It isn't as clubby as it appears, that appearance is largely from the nature of the medium and the size of the group. People will enjoy reading your posts and reading about your adventures!

2) Is there a staff member who might undertake to notice when someone posts for the first time and welcome them?

3) A thought related to the recent "clubhouse" thread. Perhaps we could have a subforum inside the GOTM forum which is not an anything goes OT (off-topic) clubhouse, but IS a place where anyone is welcome to start a thread on any subject related to GOTM? I.e. formally finish the process which seems to have become a defacto standard anyway - close the main GOTM forum to new threads except those created by the staff. But create a new place which is much more open. Still moderated, and that would mean some work for the staff I'm afraid. (E.g. watching out that threads which contain spoiler info are clearly labelled. And stopping threads which are totally off topic, etc.) If this new subforum were fairly relaxed it could become a place where newcomers introduce themselves, where people ask "what could I have done in this situation", and for just about anything else GOTM related. Perhaps such a forum would remove some of the scariness associated with posting in the main forum where there are more rules.

Edit: After posting this I saw Renata's reply a couple of posts up and want to say absolutely right Renata! You said it better than I did, I hope every newcomer reads your post here

 

[alamo]

Whew! Not sure I can make it through these posts in my current state of mind. I have a new respect for the mods now.

I don't know what the vocal opposition is all about, but if it is on the part of very skilled players then let them have a diety game w/a 1 tile island to start.


IMHO the majority of exclusions come about from novice players glancing at the scores and getting discouraged. Sure the hardier souls carry on against the odds, but many are not so inclined.

EDIT: Ok, maybe I get the point of Peace and Diplomacy.

If people complain that the warmongers are hogging the limelight then there could be special recognition for diplo/culture victories that includes rep bonus. However, the game IS tilted towards military offensive power just like real life - might makes right.

Originally posted by kryszcztov
.... using a French software, I can't take part in GOTM, QSC etc... I know I can fix the problem by myself, but I don't know how....

Why can't you just use the USA version for GOTM? Otherwise, if you know how to fix it then maybe you can post in a modification thread?

 

[CruddyLeper]

Originally posted by kryszcztov


Well, I may be off-topic and ignored once again, but................ using a French software, I can't take part in GOTM, QSC etc... I know I can fix the problem by myself, but I don't know how. If anyone knows how to make my game 100% compatible with the American PTW one, I'll thank him/her a hundred of times. PM me please if you do have a clue. I've already missed 2 GOTM, and this is the 3rd one.
I can start a thread (why not sticky) in the GOTM forum if someday I'm ok for GOTM, so as to explain to other players who may be in my situation how to deal with it.

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaank you !

If you download the 1.14 patch from the Francais section of

http://www.civ3.com

I THINK that will solve the problem - you don't need latest patch 1.21 to play GOTM, just 1.14. I could be wrong about this BUT FIRAXIS HAVE SAID THEY WILL RELEASE LATEST PATCH SOON!!!!


_____________________________________________


As for the dissatisfied players - as a newbie who had never patched Civ before GOTM18, I find this public game very educational. Perhaps a forum for improvement suggestions might generate debate? Or at least explain why some don't like GOTM in its present form. I don't know what it was like, so I can't comment.

Yes, I suppose diplo/culture players are a disadvantage for scoring. So what? I'm at a disadvantage for scoring because my early game sucks. That's why I'm trying to improve, not moaning about how the world doesn't understand me.

 

[MadScot]

To add my two cents...

There are many reasons why people don't participate, or play but lurk, I suspect. And that could be a VERY large number of people - look at the posts vs views ratios for the spoiler threads, for example. There's a LOT of people reading who don't post.

Some things that might be discouraging:
1. High standard of play, especially by the elite/pro/vet players.
2. Speed with which the game progresses and the controlled spoilers. The old, more freewheeling, spoiler style, might have more outsider-friendly. For example, why not add a condition to the spoilers e.g.

You may post in this spoiler thread if:
(a) You are at stage x of the game OR
(b) You do not plan to submit your GOTM

That way the less experienced player, who may feel threatened and even overawed may start to play 'for fun', with people able to post to help them. So what if they aren't playing it 'by the rules' - if they get confident enough to play the next game, great. And it's a great way to learn, too.

Or what about a 'newbie spoiler' thread. For people who want to get feed back on what to do, what to expect, etc?

3. Very studious nature of things. I understand the emphasis on helping people improve their games. But that does sort-of imply they aren't good enough, too. And that sets a wrong tone, perhaps. (Example - the flame war over the term 'newbie' in Civ3-GD a while ago.)

Personally, I'm not particularly deterred by these items. But maybe some people are?