Complete Mac Mayania

[Aoxomoxoa]

How many turns do you anticipate it'd take to connect the luxury resource to CI? I'm thinking we need a few workers, along w/ the curragh, settlers and MPs for the two new settlements. I'm only coming up with this thought as our converstaion moves along. If we settle by the luxuries sooner rather than later, would we be in position to take advantage of them any quicker?

I don't think we are in any danger of losing them. It will definitely make MM easier having a luxury in the box. If we can get our area settled fast, it looks like we can have a very healthy number of well resourced cities. There's a decent amount of food, a bonus luxury in sight, the river to nw looks like a more substantial waterway than CI's and we can produce alot of settlers fast if we choose to.

You know what else is cool? I've actually been to Chichen Itza.

Aoxo

 

[dojoboy]

Preturn (3050 BC) -> Reviewed F1 et al screens.

1) 3000 BC ->CI b. settler, set to settler.

2) 2950 BC -> Scouting; worker begins building road in forest tile N of CI.

3) 2900 BC -> Scouting.

4) 2850 BC -> Copan built to the south at the mouth of the river, set to warrior.

5) 2800 BC -> Contact made w/ Iroquios; trade WC & Masonry for Alphabet & CB; Iroquois knows BW; set reaserch for Writing; road built.

6) 2750 BC -> CI b. settler, set to settler; worker begins building road to Copan.

7) 2710 BC -> Scouting.

8) 2670 BC -> Palenque b. N of CI, set to warrior.

9) 2630 BC -> Copan b. warrior, set to curragh.

10) 2590 BC -> Scouting.

Recap: Other than meeting the Iroquois and establishing 2 more settlements, no real excitement occurred. I trade techs w/ the AI - one of those people. We had 10 turns left for Alphabet, so I banked on "exponential potential" by saving us 10 turns. The Iroquois still has only BW. Relations are polite. No sign of barbs. We have 22 turns remaining for Writing, suggest CoL next, then Philosophy for Republic slingshot. Can't think of another tech I rather have for free in the age, right now. Sliders remain at 0 - 9 - 1 w/ a treasury of 27 gold - breaking even each turn. There are about 3 gems located north along the west coast. The Iroquois know they're there.

Beamup
dojoboy (just played)
Serkhon (up!)
Blue Monkey (on deck)
Metropolis Man
frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa

The triangles are options for settlement (click dot map1). It may be time to go for the spices and build a couple workers in Copan after the curragh is ready.

Dot Map1

Larger View

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'm here, and following the discussion. It looks like my turn will probably come soon: perfect. I hardly have any time to play Mondays or Wednesdays (weird school schedule). I can devote most of any other day to this. I will post my thinking in advance of actually playing my turn to seek advice.

 

[Blue Monkey]

The triangles are options for settlement (click dot map1). It may be time to go for the spices

I'd be inclined to go for a city at that northernmost dot; sugar and spice, and that outlet to the coast makes everything nice.

 

[Metropolis Man]

Guys, I need to bow out for now. Sorry! I was looking forward to this, but some other stuff came up.

 

[Serkhon]

I have it.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

I think we should build at least one worker in the north (Palenque), that city will be a big producer for us, plus we can get that road working to the spices/capital.

Aoxo

 

[Serkhon]

Things seemed to go quite well dunno how long that will last though.

(01) 2550 BC
Luxury Down to 0% Science up to 100%
Worker Finishes Road to Copan
Writing Due in 15
Sent Warrior from Copan to check if we can round the pennisula in the south with our Curragh

(02) 2510 BC
Chichen Itza Settler -> Settler
Sending Settler towards the Spices
Sent Worker North to star working on a road towards the spices
Found Iroquois Borders to the North

(03) 2470 BC
Palenque Complete Warrior Starts work on a worker
Worker starts on the spice road

(04) 2430 BC
Looks like there probably is a long pennisula to the South going to send the Curragh north

(05) 2390 BC
Warrior in the south starts heading back to Copan
Discover more gems in the North

(06) 2350 BC
Worker continues work on the spice road

(07) 2310 BC
Copan Curragh -> Worker

(08) 2270 BC
Palenque Worker -> Barracks ( Change it to what ever you want but it looks like we might be fighting in the future)
Tikal founded

(09) 2230 BC
Worker 1 Continues work on spice road
Worker 2 Helps with spice road

(10) 2190 BC
Chichen Itza Settler -> Settler
Worker 1 Move to start the next section of the spice road
Worker 2 Starts a mine



Handover Notes: Theres a settler wait in Chichen Itza we should probably use it at 1,2 or 3 immediately otherwise we'll be sealed in our current area and lose our chance to get the gems. Relations with the Iroquois are good, we are average in military, but are behind in 2 techs (BW and Mysticism). The barracks in Palenque could be changed to whatever you want but I'm expecting the Iroquois might not be so friendly if we establish a city up by the gems.

Settling Prospects Along with the sites from the previous dotmaps there are 5 potential sites for the near future : 1 Allows for sea access, eventually the gold and a few more plains at the cost of 1 gems initially, 2 EDIT: Is inferior to 1 in every way and we shouldn't take it unless we really need 2 gems in the initial city radius, 3 could become a productive city in the future but it'll be very hard to defend in the event of a war, 4 and 5 look to be good expansion sites.

Beamup
dojoboy
Serkhon (just played)
Blue Monkey (up)
frunobolax (on deck)
Aoxomoxoa

View attachment 113851

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Totally agree about the barracks in Palenque. Iroquois will not be happy with having as many as 3 (see furs to the SE) luxuries.

If they do attack, we will have to be prepared to have a Golden Age since we will have our Javelin Throwers. The nice thing about them is we can acquire a whole BUNCH of workers that way.

Si I would suggest having Palenque focus alot on JT's and keep them strategically positioned in the north to respond.

As far as the far north city position, if we found it, we will have to guard it with siginificant units, if we don't iroquois will and we can always take it from them and have a settler ready to go in that case.

Aoxo

 

[dojoboy]

Serkhon is right. What land is remaining to our south can be settled with out worry. We'll have to back-fill. I vote for 1, 4, and 5. Then, a race for the furs - need a second city working on a settler. I'd even recommend giving the Iroquois 1 gpt to keep them polite while we stock JTs. More workers needed - that's an extensive public works project to connect the gems plus the military needs those roads.

 

[Beamup]

Remember, the Iroquois are one of the less aggressive civs. I think the odds of their attacking are primarily based on how much room they have to the north. The AI isn't really smart enough to say, "hey, they stole my luxuries, I'm mad now!"

So we need to get our scouts north to find out. The one by Niagra Falls can cross their borders in one turn - Hiawatha is likely to yell at us, but that has no real significance. We really need to know whether we're likely to have to fight them in the AA. Because if we are, we should do it sooner rather than later - i.e. hit them first before they have a chance to get Horseback Riding! We do not want to face Mounted Warriors if there's any way around it.

Also, it seems we haven't finished turning CI into a settler factory. It still needs a Granary and a mined grassland. Our Settler production is a LOT slower than it could be because of it. That should be the immediate build priority IMO, especially since we're in the middle of a landgrab race here.

Other than that, I agree with what's been said so far. I'll take a more detailed look later and see if I have any more comments.

Edit: OK, a few more comments. I guess we currently don't have anything to trade, but I would strongly advise we keep Writing to ourselves until we're well into researching Philosophy. Anyway, we should research CoL after Writing but keep an eye on the Iroquois. If they show up with Writing, we should maybe go for Philosophy before CoL.

Also, there are barbarians near Copan! We should get a JT down there to hunt them down.

Finally, CI must stop producing Settlers until it can get a Granary. It's just taking way too long now. The worker from Copan's first job needs to be mining a grassland for CI to finish preparing it as a settler factory.

 

[dojoboy]

Also, it seems we haven't finished turning CI into a settler factory. It still needs a Granary and a mined grassland. Our Settler production is a LOT slower than it could be because of it. That should be the immediate build priority IMO, especially since we're in the middle of a landgrab race here.
.....

Finally, CI must stop producing Settlers until it can get a Granary. It's just taking way too long now. The worker from Copan's first job needs to be mining a grassland for CI to finish preparing it as a settler factory.

Creating a settler factory is nothing I've taken the time to really learn, ashamed to admit because it's doctrine around here. Explain it to me Beamup, for someone who never made it beyond Alegbra II. I know it's to do with balancing growth and production to time settler production every 4 turns. At least I read about the 4 turn settler factory.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I've dl the 2190 BC SAV, but won't get a chance to really look at it 'til late tonight (Friend's anniversary celeb. all day).

My understanding of the Situation as handed off:
Keep Luxury Down & Science up to get Writing (Due in 15)
sending the Curragh north to explore
Worker 1 starting the next section of the spice road
Worker 2 Starts a mine

Building Cues as they stand:
Copan building Worker
Palenque building Barracks
Chichen Itza building Settler
Tikal building ?

Marching Orders ?
Build Cues:
Palenque to build JTs after Barracks finished.
Change CI build to Granary.
Need more Workers.

Unit Assignments:
Worker near Copan to mine grassland for CI.
Build roads to connect the gems plus the military needs
Scouts north to find out Iriquois geo options.
Send Settler (if/when built) to 1 (4 as secondary choice)

Diplomacy, etc.:
gift the Iroquois to keep them polite. Keep an eye on their research progress.
Keep Writing to ourselves; research CoL after Writing unless Iriquois change our plans.

I too want to hear more about Settler Factories.

Any other suggestions to help me do a good job of looking at the SAV? I'll post again with my final plan before beginning my turn; i'll be able to play extensively overnight and tomorrow.

 

[Beamup]

The basic concept behind a Settler factory is that, if you have 5 surplus food and a granary, you can produce the population for a Settler in 4 turns. If you then arrange to have enough shields that you produce 30 of them in 4 turns, you end up with a perfectly cyclic machine that pumps out Settlers every 4 turns like clockwork with minimal management.

In this particular situation, we can set it up like this:

Turn 1: Size 4, Granary full. Needs 10 food to grow to 5, 0 shields currently stored towards Settler. Set for 6 shields and 5 surplus food.
After turn 1: 5 food and 6 shields produced. Need 5 and 24 now.
Turn 2: No management.
After turn 2: City grows. Gov will put the new citizen on a forest, so 8 shields are produced. 14 total now, and city is size 5 with 10 food to size 6.
Turn 3: Move citizen from forest to BG.
After turn 3: 5 food and 7 shields produced, so need 5 food for size 6 and 9 shields to complete the settler.
Turn 4: No management.
After turn 4: City grows to 6. Again the new citizen will work a forest, so 9 shields are produced and the Settler is completed. So, the city drops back to size 4.

And then you're right back where you started.

The currently missing ingredients to this plan are:
- We don't have quite enough shields yet. We can get 6 shields at size 4, but we can't get 7 at size 5. Hence, we need to mine a grassland to get one more shield.
- The Granary. Without a granary, we can produce settlers every 8 turns at most, since that's how long it takes to grow 2 points of population.

So, to set this up, CI should immediately swap to a Granary, and that one grassland should be mined. Try to time it so that the Granary will complete at size 4 with the food box half full (i.e. the Granary is full). Then, we can start pumping Settlers every 4 turns.

It would also be beneficial to set up a Worker factory. The Cows site is ideal for this. We want a surplus of 5 food, and 3 shields - this is very easily arranged with cows. Then, every 4 turns, that city will grow 1 point (without a Granary) and produce a Worker. Alternatively, we can do 5 food, 5 shields, and a Granary to pop a Worker every 2 turns, but I don't think we need that many since we're Industrious slavers.

You can also check out this War Academy article.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Thanks to Beamup for the factory explanations. Since noone has made any adverse comments I'm assuming my plan in post 53 is acceptable and will play accordingly.

 

[Blue Monkey]

0) 2190 BC: unfinished turn - settler sent to 1. Changed CI build to granary, shift from wheat to mg to build in 12 vs. 20.

1) 2150 BC: Westernmost scout sent through mountains; Easternmost sent across narrowest band of land through Iroquois territory. Worker continues road to Tikal. Curragh continues north toward river mouth.

2) 2110 BC: Copan builds worker, set to build another. Worker sent to CI, will then start mine. Western scout encounters barb warrior at end of move. Iroquois have founded Grand River at location 3. Decide to continue to send settler to 1 because of value of resources even though I know this will hasten conflict with them.

3) 2070 BC: Iroquois contested intrusion; made apologies and gifted 2 gold, they return to polite. They have Bronze-Working & Mysticism. WestScout delays attacking Barb, moves north: oops another barb. Curragh continuing N to next river mouth.

4) 2030 BC: West scout defeats 3 barbs, gains Vet status, encounters Irq warrior. EastScout moves N then NW parallel to Irq border. Worker completes mine, sent to aid Tikal road build.

5) 1990 BC: WScout moves NE along ridge line parallel to Irq border. Road complete to Tikal; will extend road to spice.

6) 1950 BC: Irq are building Pyramid. WScout sees goody hut, will move to it. Curragh rounding cape to continue N. EScout turning more N. Drop Research to 90%; still get Writing next turn, gain 1 gold. Then return research to 100%.

7) 1910 BC: Complete Writing, set to research CoL. Copan builds worker, cues worker. Tikal builds warrior (fortified), cues granary. Copan worker to mine. Settler founds Yaxchilan: building warrior. Irq founded unnamed city on river just to east of Yax.

8) 1870 BC: Can tell by borders Irq have another city between GR and NF. CI worker completes mine, builds road. Goody Hut gives us Mysticism. EScout reaches shore. Irq still polite.

9) 1830 BC: Spice Road complete, send 2 workers to build road to Sugar, which also begins road to Yaxchilan. Both Scouts head toward W: goal to send one SW into unexplored area , other NW into unexplored interior while Curragh explores coast.

10) 1790 BC: Last turn of my round: Road connects Sugar. I would recommend one worker continue to build road toward Yax and the other mine grassland to aid Tikal. Sending CI worker to mine gold. Granary complete in 2 more turns, CI reaches size 4 that same turn.

Images reduced to 16-color to save memory; I think enough detail remains to be clear enough for discussion.

Our Territory 1790 BC
View attachment 114012

Northern Frontier and Explored Region 1790 BC
View attachment 114011


Saved Game 1790 BC
View attachment 114010


I'm completely amenable to harsh critiques of my gameplay.

Beamup
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey (just played)
frunobolax (up)
Aoxomoxoa (on deck)

 

[frunobulax]

Got it! Playing.

 

[Beamup]

Seeing how much unsettled land there is north of the Iroquois (and its poor quality notwithstanding) I think we can probably avoid an early war with them. They're likely to settle that before they start anything. Which is good - I'd rather not face Mounted Warriors prior to Knights. We just need to be careful not to tick them off.

We should still build a fair number of JTs in case I'm wrong, though. Starting soon.

 

[frunobulax]

(0) 1790BC
Research switched to Philosophy (in 12) from Code of Laws (in 19), in hope of getting bonus as first nation to research Philosopy, towards Republic goal. Science @ 100%. Iroquois cautious of us! Barbarains reported South of Copan!

(1) 1750BC
Warrior (west) moves west and discovers river. Curragh exploring NE of continent. 1 worker in Tikal sent N. to build road to Yax. (and gems), other Tikal worker to Palenque to mine shield-grassland tile (BTW: is this what you folks mean by BG?)
Worker mining gold in Chichen Itza.

(2) 1725BC
Copan produces worker - set to mine road north out of city; other worker in Copan set to build road to newly mined tile. Copan set to Warrior, so can send S to investiagte Barbarian reports! Chichen Itza completes Granary - Settler in 5. Science to 90% (Philosophy in 9 - same as 100% setting).

(3) 1700BC
Palenque completes Barracks - set to JT. Palenque worker set to mine BG in 4. Philosophy due in 8 but Treasury now at -1 but decide to make net loss (treasury=27). Iroq. now polite towards us.

(4) 1675BC
Road to first mine completed in Copan - this worker sent to aid completion of second Copan mine (1 turn). Warrior-Explorers still exploring, as is Curragh.

(5) 1650BC
Copan completes Warrior - set to Curragh (in 4, then consdier another worker in 3 after that). New warrior sent S to investiagte Barb activity. Second mine completed in Copan; one Copan worker heads to CI to aid gold mine completion, other goes NW to mine tile by river. Philosophy due in 6 (treasury still making -1 net loss).

(6) 1625BC
Chichen Itza produces settler - heads N to position #4 (as per Serkhon's dot map above) - CI set to JT (regular, in 6). Western warrior-explorer discovers village.

(7) 1600BC
Yax produces warrior - set to warrior again in 5. Second mine completed in Palenque (JT due in 5, growth in 1) and worker set to build road. Our western warrior-explorer enters the Teoihuacan village and they give us Bronze Working! Yax reset to Spearman in 10, CI reset to Spearman in 3.

(8) 1575BC
CI completes gold mine, two workers set to build road in 2.

(9) 1550BC
Copan completes second Curragh (renamed 'Spirit of 1550' becuase, well, I felt like it!) and headds off SW to explore around coastline. Palenque finishes second mine road and worker moved SE to mine next BG tile. Warrior (SW) discovers large Barbarian encampment on a hill (4 conscript wariiros - suggest we take it out!). Also finds 'game' tile by coast in SW. Research adjusted down to 80%, Philosophy due in 2 (same setting as at 90%). Treasury +3 (21 gold).

(10) 1525BC
CI completes Spearman (regular) and is sent NE to follow settler. CI set to settler in 3. Another mine completed in CI, worker set to build road. CI gold mine road completed - two workers sent NE and suggest build road on wheat tile and then road onto where settler is.

1525BC - composite screenshot


- - - - - - -

Saved game 1525BC >>
Mac Mayaniac of the Maya, 1525 BC.SAV.zip

Beamup (on deck)
dojoboy
Serkhon
Blue Monkey
frunobolax (just played)
Aoxomoxoa (up)


Handover notes

1. Settler has now arrived and is in place to build new city (position #4 on dot map).
2. Two workers in CI heading NE and suggest build road on wheat tile (NE of Palenque) and then road onto where settler is.
3. Road to Yax now due in 2, then suggest road to gems!
Research dropped to 60% (+10 gold next turn) as Philosophy due next turn! Fingers crossed we get the bonus (jeez - wish I had 1 more turn!)
4. Vet. JT due in 1 in Palenque.
5. SW warrior moving in on barbarian encampment.
6. CI will produce settler in 3 - where to send him? (suggestions anyone?)
7. Copan set to Granary but seriously wondering if we should start a Wonder or Palace prebuild here? - since Chichan Itza is settler factory and Palenque should be JT factory for time being. Worker N near CI can move south and mine extra tiles by Copan's river to increase production as necessary.
8. Also - on screenshot above have suggested poss. future position for 'naval access' city on isthmus chokepoint, as well as areas to far NW that could be settled to partially fence-in Iroquois.

 

[Beamup]

A few notes:
- IMO we don't want Spearmen. None. I'd say JTs should be our military for pretty much this entire age. For only 10 more shields, we get a good attack factor and enslavement.

- CI should never build anything but Settlers. Never. Military units should be left to other cities with Barracks.

- The switch to Philosophy was probably unnecessary - we've pretty much beelined to it, and Writing is so expensive the AI will generally research it very late. We could likely have completed CoL, then done Philosophy to get Republic free. This turns out to be much more powerful than taking CoL with the free tech, as The Republic is by far the most expensive Ancient tech.

This is not meant to be confrontational, and they're not huge issues. In my view, a large part of the attraction of SGs is the opportunity to discuss different choices and playing styles to try and really understand them better. So, take the above points as nothing more than a starting point for discussion that will hopefully make us all better players. And I definitely hope to have my own play similarly critiqued.

P.S. I felt it necessary to include the above paragraph because I've been burned a couple times by others reading an attack into what I'd intended as friendly discussion. So I wanted to make sure I was clear here.

P.P.S. With respect to wonder/prebuild, I'd say no. There aren't any really attractive Wonders available, and the shields would be better spent on JTs/Workers/Settlers. Specifically we could build a Barracks in Copan and have it start producing more JTs. (Maybe I'm being overly paranoid, but I'd really like some defense on that side of the empire.)

P.P.P.S. Current expansion should be toward the Furs IMO. Next Settler should maybe even be sent straight there. If not, expand that way more gradually. After the Furs, a city should be founded W-NW of Copan (to get both cows) and use them to start pumping Workers. It can be easily set to produce one every 4 turns (just let it grow to 2 and use both cows), which will keep up with CI's Settler production.

Suggestions for next turns micro of CI:
- Move the citizen from the forest to the just-mined grassland immediately.
- After 1 turn there, move him to the wheat.
- Then CI will grow in 2 turns, completing the Settler at the same time and getting back on track to pump non-stop Settlers.

More suggestions may come soon as I study the save more...