Complete Mac Mayania
- Thread starter Beamup
- Start date
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
Busy all day, just downloaded the save. i'm in but don't wait for my input to start first round; I'm perfectly content to be late in the rotation since this way I'm able to learn the collective wisdom on optimal strategy as well as insights into "Complete".
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
PS: I'm all for adding Aoxomoxoa to the rotation.
Let's be clear - when I say "research at 100%," that does not preclude using the entertainment slider. It just precludes taxes. Running some entertainment is a much better option than using an entertainer in general, and should be used as needed.
Anyway, since everyone is signed in, I'll play the first 20 turns sometime today.
And while I have no objection to adding Aoxomoxoa, I feel pretty strongly that we should cut back to 10 turns if we do. The great majority of SGs use 10-turn rotations (the listing in the What's an SG thread notwithstanding), and having 120 turns pass before you get the game back is just way too long. In fact, I'm now rethinking my earlier agreement to do 20 in the first place - nobody'll get to play very many rounds even with a roster of 6.
So, let's vote. 20 turns or 10? I say we go with the standard setup of 20 turns for the first player, then 10 thereafter.
Anyway, since everyone is signed in, I'll play the first 20 turns sometime today.
And while I have no objection to adding Aoxomoxoa, I feel pretty strongly that we should cut back to 10 turns if we do. The great majority of SGs use 10-turn rotations (the listing in the What's an SG thread notwithstanding), and having 120 turns pass before you get the game back is just way too long. In fact, I'm now rethinking my earlier agreement to do 20 in the first place - nobody'll get to play very many rounds even with a roster of 6.
So, let's vote. 20 turns or 10? I say we go with the standard setup of 20 turns for the first player, then 10 thereafter.
dojoboy
Tsalagi
Beamup said:
Aoxomoxoa? Aye, he is of noble blood.
Ten turns? Aye. (I did peruse some SGs and noticed this, TDGs especially.)
frunobulax
High Sheriff of Catford
10 turns fine with me
Metropolis Man
Warlord
Beamup, what is the official rotation as of now. Is Blue Monkey not joining us until later?
4000 BC (1): Worker moves to the wheat. Seeing nothing of consequence, Chichen Itza is founded on the spot. Research begun on WC at 100%, expected in 27 turns.
Examining the spot, turning the city into a Settler factory will require irrigating the Wheat and mining two BGs and one regular grassland (could do three BGs, but only two are on the river). This will allow us a 4-turn factory as so:
1 - At size 4, work Wheat + 2 mined BG + mined grass (6 shields)
2 - Grow to size 5, gov will work a forest (14 shields)
3 - Move citizen from forest to BG (21 shields)
4 - Grow to size 6, gov will work a forest (30 shields), Settler built, drops back to 4.
Means we'll need 2 happy or content faces always, 3 sometimes. No luxuries in sight yet, so we're looking at 2 MPs and running entertainment half the time, or 3 MPs.
Also, we're about at the headwaters of the river here.
3950 BC (2): Road+Irrigate and Irrigate+Road both finish the irrigation in time for it to be used the first turn at size 2, and irrigating first won't get to size 2 any faster. Accordingly I Road first for a few extra beakers.
3900 BC (3):
3850 BC (4): Road completes, WC time drops to 19 turns. Start
irrigation.
3800 BC (5):
3750 BC (6): CI grows. I inform the locals that we'd really rather grow than finish the warrior 1 turn sooner - work the BG. WC time now 14 turns.
3700 BC (7): Irrigation complete, move to the BG on this side of the
river to mine it.
3650 BC (8): Warrior completes, heads downstream to explore and spots the river mouth a little SW of CI. Short river, unfortunately. Start mine.
3600 BC (9): Explore...
3550 BC (10): CI grows and will be unhappy. 10% entertainment takes care of it - I want to get two Warriors out before we use them as MP.
3500 BC (11): Border pop. WC in 9.
3450 BC (12): New Warrior heads north to explore. First Warrior spots two cows to the SW, next to an isthmus which he will not explore yet. He needs to head back north to fill in more of the area around CI.
3400 BC (13): More exploring.
3350 BC (14): CI grows just as the MP warrior completes... just as I planned it. That's why I mined the BG before the road. Move to second BG to begin work.
3300 BC (15): Spot a hut.
3250 BC (16): Second MP completes, we now have unit support costs and are running a deficit. Start on a Settler before Granary to get that under control (subject to veto as it will not complete before the end of my turns). Science back at 100%. Pop the hut and get gold. Northern Warrior spots Spices! We'll want those ASAP to keep CI happy.
3200 BC (17): More exploring.
3150 BC (18): CI grows, needs entertainment again. Drop science to 50% to not waste beakers.
3100 BC (19): WC completes, start on Alphabet, intending on a Republic slingshot or at least trading fodder. Due in 23 after raising science again.
3050 BC (20): Nothing much.
I save the file before hitting End Turn. The Settler is due in 1, at which point the entertainment slider can be zeroed again. Or, the Settler could be vetoed and a Granary built (whipped?) instead. It's time for a dotmap - I've attached a JPG with a view of our entire empire along with the save. Anybody care to take a shot at it (remember, we really want to be on the river as much as possible)? My personal inclination is to grab the Spices first - that's the direction the other Civs likely are anyway. That site could then start some JTs. The cows could make for a very nice worker factory with very little effort.
When the Worker finishes his current task, he should move due South and mine/road that grassland to complete the preparation of CI as a Settler factory. Also, remember that isthmus I skipped exploring - a scout should be sent down there when convenient.
Roster:
Beamup (just played)
dojoboy (up!)
Serkhon (on deck)
Blue Monkey
Metropolis Man
frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa
@ Metropolis Man: I'd understood Blue Monkey's post to indicate that he would be prepared to play when it came around to him. If he isn't, a swap or skip is always possible. The "official" roster is above, but very open to changes if anyone so desires.
Examining the spot, turning the city into a Settler factory will require irrigating the Wheat and mining two BGs and one regular grassland (could do three BGs, but only two are on the river). This will allow us a 4-turn factory as so:
1 - At size 4, work Wheat + 2 mined BG + mined grass (6 shields)
2 - Grow to size 5, gov will work a forest (14 shields)
3 - Move citizen from forest to BG (21 shields)
4 - Grow to size 6, gov will work a forest (30 shields), Settler built, drops back to 4.
Means we'll need 2 happy or content faces always, 3 sometimes. No luxuries in sight yet, so we're looking at 2 MPs and running entertainment half the time, or 3 MPs.
Also, we're about at the headwaters of the river here.
3950 BC (2): Road+Irrigate and Irrigate+Road both finish the irrigation in time for it to be used the first turn at size 2, and irrigating first won't get to size 2 any faster. Accordingly I Road first for a few extra beakers.
3900 BC (3):
3850 BC (4): Road completes, WC time drops to 19 turns. Start
irrigation.
3800 BC (5):
3750 BC (6): CI grows. I inform the locals that we'd really rather grow than finish the warrior 1 turn sooner - work the BG. WC time now 14 turns.
3700 BC (7): Irrigation complete, move to the BG on this side of the
river to mine it.
3650 BC (8): Warrior completes, heads downstream to explore and spots the river mouth a little SW of CI. Short river, unfortunately. Start mine.
3600 BC (9): Explore...
3550 BC (10): CI grows and will be unhappy. 10% entertainment takes care of it - I want to get two Warriors out before we use them as MP.
3500 BC (11): Border pop. WC in 9.
3450 BC (12): New Warrior heads north to explore. First Warrior spots two cows to the SW, next to an isthmus which he will not explore yet. He needs to head back north to fill in more of the area around CI.
3400 BC (13): More exploring.
3350 BC (14): CI grows just as the MP warrior completes... just as I planned it. That's why I mined the BG before the road. Move to second BG to begin work.
3300 BC (15): Spot a hut.
3250 BC (16): Second MP completes, we now have unit support costs and are running a deficit. Start on a Settler before Granary to get that under control (subject to veto as it will not complete before the end of my turns). Science back at 100%. Pop the hut and get gold. Northern Warrior spots Spices! We'll want those ASAP to keep CI happy.
3200 BC (17): More exploring.
3150 BC (18): CI grows, needs entertainment again. Drop science to 50% to not waste beakers.
3100 BC (19): WC completes, start on Alphabet, intending on a Republic slingshot or at least trading fodder. Due in 23 after raising science again.
3050 BC (20): Nothing much.
I save the file before hitting End Turn. The Settler is due in 1, at which point the entertainment slider can be zeroed again. Or, the Settler could be vetoed and a Granary built (whipped?) instead. It's time for a dotmap - I've attached a JPG with a view of our entire empire along with the save. Anybody care to take a shot at it (remember, we really want to be on the river as much as possible)? My personal inclination is to grab the Spices first - that's the direction the other Civs likely are anyway. That site could then start some JTs. The cows could make for a very nice worker factory with very little effort.
When the Worker finishes his current task, he should move due South and mine/road that grassland to complete the preparation of CI as a Settler factory. Also, remember that isthmus I skipped exploring - a scout should be sent down there when convenient.
Roster:
Beamup (just played)
dojoboy (up!)
Serkhon (on deck)
Blue Monkey
Metropolis Man
frunobolax
Aoxomoxoa
@ Metropolis Man: I'd understood Blue Monkey's post to indicate that he would be prepared to play when it came around to him. If he isn't, a swap or skip is always possible. The "official" roster is above, but very open to changes if anyone so desires.
Attachments
dojoboy
Tsalagi
Good foundation Beamup.
Re: Settlements.
Settling at the mouth of the river first will allow us to get a couple curraghs out. Then we could settle west of there for the cows. I believe we've got time to secure the spices, but if anyone's nervous about it, we can go there sooner than later. We should be able to squeeze two more settlements on the river. Those BGs to the West and North look nice as well.
I'll grab the save this evening, around 6:30 EST, with the above as my initial intent - unless better options are presented. But, I'll post "Got it" first to let everyone know play is imminent.
One thing, a confession. I never MM my cities to prevent disorder. If it hits, I adjust. But, what indicators are you using when MM to prevent disorder? Simply pop, assuming the next growth will be unhappy?
Re: Settlements.
Settling at the mouth of the river first will allow us to get a couple curraghs out. Then we could settle west of there for the cows. I believe we've got time to secure the spices, but if anyone's nervous about it, we can go there sooner than later. We should be able to squeeze two more settlements on the river. Those BGs to the West and North look nice as well.
I'll grab the save this evening, around 6:30 EST, with the above as my initial intent - unless better options are presented. But, I'll post "Got it" first to let everyone know play is imminent.
One thing, a confession. I never MM my cities to prevent disorder. If it hits, I adjust. But, what indicators are you using when MM to prevent disorder? Simply pop, assuming the next growth will be unhappy?
Sounds reasonable, but I think an explicit dotmap would be beneficial. I'd do one myself, but ATM I don't have ready access to a app that will do it gracefully.dojoboy said:
I simply scan F1 at the end of every turn and look for cities with more citizens unhappy than happy. The fact that the disorder check happens before growth means that you have one turn to deal with it between the time the unhappy citizen appears and the time they riot. During that turn, it's very easy to see what'll happen. No anticipation needed.dojoboy said:
dojoboy
Tsalagi
Beamup said:
Having no dotmap making experience. Here is one. The white dot to the north is an option to the red dot to its southwest (1 tile).
Poor Man's Dot Map
Hmmm. Tighter spacing than I normally use, but quite workable. The main modification I'd suggest would be to take the far north dot (the one on the hill) and move it NE onto the plain. I've never been a fan of cities on hills.dojoboy said:
I'd also definitely prefer the white dot - the red is way too cramped, and it doesn't really gain anything by being that close. If the river went up there, I could see it, but as is...
So you'd intend to found the two dots on the river first? Seems reasonable.
dojoboy
Tsalagi
Beamup said:
At least the one along the coast. The white dot, which I too like best, would add more production w/ the BGs. Then, maybe the fourth settlement back on the river?
Thanks guys for letting me in. One question, I understand the tactic of the tighter city spacing in C3C, and have been fooling around with games since picking it up at macworld... but don't we have a real potential heavyweight of a settler factory to the west with the cows?
Aoxo
Aoxo
@ dojoboy
Those three and the spices (the hill or plains site) are the best available, I agree. I'm just thinking of being able to pull one of the MPs out of CI or use less entertainment.
Do as you see fit, of course.
@ Aoxo
Yes, a site SW of dojoboy's northern dot on the river would be a very good settler factory. Mine the cows and BG, plus one other grassland, and it could be a 3-4 factory instead of 4-5 like CI. But we've already got CI basically set up as a settler factory, so we need to consider whether we want two, or do something different. It's a good suggestion.
Those three and the spices (the hill or plains site) are the best available, I agree. I'm just thinking of being able to pull one of the MPs out of CI or use less entertainment.
Do as you see fit, of course.
@ Aoxo
Yes, a site SW of dojoboy's northern dot on the river would be a very good settler factory. Mine the cows and BG, plus one other grassland, and it could be a 3-4 factory instead of 4-5 like CI. But we've already got CI basically set up as a settler factory, so we need to consider whether we want two, or do something different. It's a good suggestion.
dojoboy
Tsalagi
Beamup said:
How many turns do you anticipate it'd take to connect the luxury resource to CI? I'm thinking we need a few workers, along w/ the curragh, settlers and MPs for the two new settlements. I'm only coming up with this thought as our converstaion moves along. If we settle by the luxuries sooner rather than later, would we be in position to take advantage of them any quicker?
dojoboy
Tsalagi
I got it. Should be posting my results later tonight.
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