Pretty sure early religion is often not worth it even with spritual... Getting a religion at some point is probably nice though. You don't need a specific economic trait like financial or organized to get a decent economy(industrious is NOT an economic trait...). With spiritual you will get more effective turns due to no anarchy anyways and the ability to always run optimal civics... In the wast majority of early game you just build worker and (fast) settlers to expand plop down improvements needed and build up your economy that way. Wonders, including great wall is a large part of the time a waste...
Comprehensive Leader Guide: Justinian
- Thread starter noto
- Start date
fugazi
King
I very often just expand until I can expand no more with Justinian. I push the boundaries of my economy and then start rebuilding my economy. The thing is that you have to this moment - the moment that you shoot your economy through the head - and make sure that when it get backs up again, you can make another expansive push. Golden ages, settling great prophets, cottage or merchant specialist cities that come into fruition - it all helps a lot. I love Justinian as he lets me do whatever the hell I want.
The only tough bit is the start. If I got a commerce tile, I'll try and grab an early religion. If not, I'll get whatever techs I need to start working the tiles around my city. With Justinian, you can also easily build a settler at size 1 or 2 and thus get one out early. The problem is that you won't be able to see where copper is though ..
Edit - the last two times I played Justinian, I just captured a neighbors holy city instead. With some luck, he'll even have build the shrine for you
The only tough bit is the start. If I got a commerce tile, I'll try and grab an early religion. If not, I'll get whatever techs I need to start working the tiles around my city. With Justinian, you can also easily build a settler at size 1 or 2 and thus get one out early. The problem is that you won't be able to see where copper is though ..
Edit - the last two times I played Justinian, I just captured a neighbors holy city instead. With some luck, he'll even have build the shrine for you
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
I think the overall strategy Noto proposed makes sense (early religious / REX start while building Great Wall to keep out barbs), provided you can keep your neighbors happy long enough to do your thing.
The problem with religious starts is that you inevitably are playing catch-up on worker and military techs, especially if you go bananas and try to get Monotheism early. The worker tech problem is exacerbated for Byzantium, which doesn't even start with a food tech. Ideally, you want to be pumping out fast Imperialistic settlers while at the happy cap, which means getting enough food in the city early on.
I would therefore research something like this:
food tech (preferably Agriculture) > Pottery > Mining > Bronze Working > Meditation > Priesthood > Writing > Code of Laws (from Oracle). I like Code of Laws better than Theology because you don't have to slog through the Monotheism branch of the tech tree. Priesthood also opens up Monarchy and Feudalism. This tech path also gives you early pottery, allowing you to build a granary sooner than later and get up to the happy cap quicker.
This gives you some early worker and military techs while letting you get a religion, which I agree is important for Justinian. Obviously, if you have no copper, you will need to pick up Animal Husbandry or Archery in there.
Theology can work too, but I really prefer to get it with a Great Prophet's lightbulb (which means building the Oracle early and taking, say, Monarchy with it). It's very expensive to research and unlikely you can Oracle it at the mid-to-upper difficulty levels. Even lightbulbing Theology requires you to take ALL of the early religious techs first. It may be worth getting Alphabet soon just to backfill those quickly and open up the way for your Great Prophet.
The problem with religious starts is that you inevitably are playing catch-up on worker and military techs, especially if you go bananas and try to get Monotheism early. The worker tech problem is exacerbated for Byzantium, which doesn't even start with a food tech. Ideally, you want to be pumping out fast Imperialistic settlers while at the happy cap, which means getting enough food in the city early on.
I would therefore research something like this:
food tech (preferably Agriculture) > Pottery > Mining > Bronze Working > Meditation > Priesthood > Writing > Code of Laws (from Oracle). I like Code of Laws better than Theology because you don't have to slog through the Monotheism branch of the tech tree. Priesthood also opens up Monarchy and Feudalism. This tech path also gives you early pottery, allowing you to build a granary sooner than later and get up to the happy cap quicker.
This gives you some early worker and military techs while letting you get a religion, which I agree is important for Justinian. Obviously, if you have no copper, you will need to pick up Animal Husbandry or Archery in there.
Theology can work too, but I really prefer to get it with a Great Prophet's lightbulb (which means building the Oracle early and taking, say, Monarchy with it). It's very expensive to research and unlikely you can Oracle it at the mid-to-upper difficulty levels. Even lightbulbing Theology requires you to take ALL of the early religious techs first. It may be worth getting Alphabet soon just to backfill those quickly and open up the way for your Great Prophet.
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2005
- Messages
- 2,073
I playing alot with Just on Emperor being sucesfull. Later i will make more big post, (cause i am on job now):
Few points :
Later posters guides are better than OP guide.
Just actually need some wonders. I actually like early grabbing of Aestetics.
Wall is must with Pyros (same as posts above, great right stuff indeed)
Bulbing of MetalCast and Mechanic working great, 3rd engeneer going to build SIstine Chapel.
Also you should look on Nationhood . With such UU and Spi its just awesome. Settling GGs is awesome, period switching - while teching eco techs build army with +exp civics, then builing those eco buildings with OR and stuff.
Also cuirasier power knights are great, most should be flankers, some combat 3+.
After i used 4-5 GP i starting to bomb those 3 cities with securing me backup win - cultural.
Those settled GGs, UU, Dependance to Culture %, love of Code of Laws (yes its good, as been already said) make Cultural win also viable.
Few points :
Later posters guides are better than OP guide.
Just actually need some wonders. I actually like early grabbing of Aestetics.
Wall is must with Pyros (same as posts above, great right stuff indeed)
Bulbing of MetalCast and Mechanic working great, 3rd engeneer going to build SIstine Chapel.
Also you should look on Nationhood . With such UU and Spi its just awesome. Settling GGs is awesome, period switching - while teching eco techs build army with +exp civics, then builing those eco buildings with OR and stuff.
Also cuirasier power knights are great, most should be flankers, some combat 3+.
After i used 4-5 GP i starting to bomb those 3 cities with securing me backup win - cultural.
Those settled GGs, UU, Dependance to Culture %, love of Code of Laws (yes its good, as been already said) make Cultural win also viable.
ForGreatJustice
Master of the Grump
Even though it's been months since the last post by slvynn, I just want to say thank you for making this thread. Having picked up civ4 recently after playing civ3 for so long I feel I actually understand warmongering again after having read this.
or rewrite it completely
There are 2 powerful ways to play justinian :
- cultural, by grabbing a few early religion, fast expanding to the required number of cities using imperialistic trait to whip settlers, then using the spiritual trait to get cheap temples needed for the cathedrals
- war! kill'em all with cataphracts. This clearly works best if you manage to get them early but it's better to get a load of them with a bunch of cities able to produce them than to get 1 in the BCs
One thing worth mentioning with Justin is Settler first with plains hill. You don't have food techs, no mining, no bw. That seemed to work best for me.
Settler-Warrior....until growth-worker
Worker-Whathaveyou...until growth worker
Complements teching religion and masonry (depending on commerce/stone) well.
Settler-Warrior....until growth-worker
Worker-Whathaveyou...until growth worker
Complements teching religion and masonry (depending on commerce/stone) well.
georgjorge
Deity Wannabe
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2009
- Messages
- 921
Stone is really good for Justinian, I recently discovered. Even on Immortal, if you have stone in the capital it is totally possible to build both the Great Wall and Pyramids, which have great synergy with him, and still not underexpand (well, maintenance is so high there that you can't afford too many cities in the beginning anyway). Maybe even the Lighthouse is possible...? The only iffy thing is that you might have to postpone Agriculture until your fourth tech since you'll want Bronze Working to chop out the Wonders, and you don't start with Mining (I got both wonders even though I delayed Bronze Working, but it was close).
So, I'll reference him from now on as the Stone & Horse man.
So, I'll reference him from now on as the Stone & Horse man.
Sportyatuncw06
Warlord
Great thread guys. Lots of good points here. I wanted to throw another idea out there even though I haven't play Justinian very often. Skip religions, skip wonders and go on a crazy warpath. The double (or even triple) rush. While he has no starting food techs he does have the wheel. If you have animals in the BFC what about grabbing AH first. If lucky enough for horses in the BFC or close by to pick up in the second city start banging out chariots. Find nears neighbor (who shouldn't have BW and spears yet) and enjoy. You can backfill territory with those IMP settlers after developing some land. Perhaps squeeze in an axe/HA or axe/HA/cat rush in before getting the cats up and running. Grabbing the GW is nice and if you get out early chariots and have some survive and promote to HA and later Cataphracts you will have a nasty force on your hands. The one game I recall playing with Just I crashed the economy with a Cataphract/treb rush that was way to successful.
One other point. While there was lots of discussion about the UU not much about the UB. While it is pretty self explanatory the plus 2 happiness is great and eliminates the need for early HR (health will probally be more of a factor than happiness) Not as good as the Mongols GER but a nice UB for sure.
One other point. While there was lots of discussion about the UU not much about the UB. While it is pretty self explanatory the plus 2 happiness is great and eliminates the need for early HR (health will probally be more of a factor than happiness) Not as good as the Mongols GER but a nice UB for sure.
Fraxander
Chieftain
Great guide....hope it can help me use Justinian more effectively...cause i kept losing games using Jus...
lasombra1984
Prince
I agree that Justinian is a great warmonger, but I'm using "shrine+imp.settler" strategy.
If we failed to found a religion (mostly Meditation or Philosophy based; sometimes Divine Right based) we seek an ally that helps conquer that shrine for us.
One big stack of Catapracts+Trebuchets will help to get those shrine, then we hide behind the GW.
P.S. Stone is prefered, because i'm building Great Wall in the second city. Our Constantinople is a Great Prophet spawning pool
If we failed to found a religion (mostly Meditation or Philosophy based; sometimes Divine Right based) we seek an ally that helps conquer that shrine for us.
One big stack of Catapracts+Trebuchets will help to get those shrine, then we hide behind the GW.
P.S. Stone is prefered, because i'm building Great Wall in the second city. Our Constantinople is a Great Prophet spawning pool
georgjorge
Deity Wannabe
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2009
- Messages
- 921
I don't know, Trebs alongside Cataphracts seems a waste of the speed provided by two movement points. If you build the Great Wall, you'll probably have enough espionage for a mounted rush (of course there might be better uses for them as well).
Kev
Hired Goon
It's been a long time since I've tried a game with Justinian - I should go back and revisit.
I did have one very successful game with him on Monarch, but it was a while ago and I really cannot remember the details. The basics were that I had a pretty decent production capitol that was coastal. I popped masonry from a hut, so decided to get the Great Lighthouse there and was successful. I also got a few additional cities out, and one started on the Oracle. It was going to be fairly late if successful, so I tried a full-on gamble and teched off Monarchy myself.
It worked by luck, and thus I was able to take Feudalism from the Oracle. Combine that with some Great Merchant bulbing from the Lighthouse, and it made for a decent beeline toward Guilds and Cataphracts. From there I was able to basically run over the closer civs to me - two of which were even protective.
The Feudalism-from-Oracle deal is not really a strategy on Monarch and above - more of a gamble to be sure. Still, it can provide some real benefits for the Justinian player looking to push the time to Guilds. Early feudalism also is great trade bait, and can give you early vassalage too for some extra promotions to earlier units.
I realize it would generally mean not being able to get the Great Wall as well, but with this method it's best to take the fight outside the borders anyway...
I did have one very successful game with him on Monarch, but it was a while ago and I really cannot remember the details. The basics were that I had a pretty decent production capitol that was coastal. I popped masonry from a hut, so decided to get the Great Lighthouse there and was successful. I also got a few additional cities out, and one started on the Oracle. It was going to be fairly late if successful, so I tried a full-on gamble and teched off Monarchy myself.
It worked by luck, and thus I was able to take Feudalism from the Oracle. Combine that with some Great Merchant bulbing from the Lighthouse, and it made for a decent beeline toward Guilds and Cataphracts. From there I was able to basically run over the closer civs to me - two of which were even protective.
The Feudalism-from-Oracle deal is not really a strategy on Monarch and above - more of a gamble to be sure. Still, it can provide some real benefits for the Justinian player looking to push the time to Guilds. Early feudalism also is great trade bait, and can give you early vassalage too for some extra promotions to earlier units.
I realize it would generally mean not being able to get the Great Wall as well, but with this method it's best to take the fight outside the borders anyway...
lasombra1984
Prince
No, there's no waste of speed.
Cataphracts use their extra move to:
1. Flankers pillage Towns (it's cool to make your way across cottage tiles), anyway your Workers will re-improve tiles, because Justinian is not a CE leader
2. Medic I heals the stack
Udey1
Prince
BAD ADVICE!
The point of mounted units is quick acquisition of enemy territory. You want to leverage this speed with spies placed in the cities to incite revolts (negating the culture bonus). The relative high strength of mounted suites itself to this. Especially Justinian's UU. With Trebs your movement is cut in half.
WHY on earth would you pillage cottages in a city you are about to own?
Every leader is a CE leader. Build cottages --tada! (what the heck does your second comment even imply? That only certain civs like financial should build cottages! HA!)
Promote Mounted attackers to combat. Flanking is a silly promotion for an attacker. If you have any flankers they would be in your own lands engaging enemy stacks to destroy siege. Otherwise flanking is just inferior to combat promotions. Furthermore, even if a couple more units survive with flanking, they are wounded and will slow you down even more. Combat line all the way. The less time you spend at war, the better.
Medic 3 heals the stack. With an IMP leader like Justinian your first GG should super medic your stack.
Spoiler :
lasombra1984
Prince
I'm lucky to build Oracle in my games, but it is a torment when to choose between Metal Casting & Code of Laws.
1. Metal Casing is a Forge, Engineer, Workshops & 1 step closer to Guilds
2. CoL is unlimited Merchants, improved Workshops & Courthouse
Usually I incline towards Metal Casing, after all using Slavery extra turns worth it but... when Oracle is finished I choose CoL fearing that new city (6+ already) will kill my economy.
Any ideas?
1. Metal Casing is a Forge, Engineer, Workshops & 1 step closer to Guilds
2. CoL is unlimited Merchants, improved Workshops & Courthouse
Usually I incline towards Metal Casing, after all using Slavery extra turns worth it but... when Oracle is finished I choose CoL fearing that new city (6+ already) will kill my economy.
Any ideas?
Absolute Zero
Settler
There are some other factors that often affect my choice.
CoL founds Confucianism, which can be a big deal in some situations. For example, if you are on a continent with no other religion, you can spread it for diplo/gold.
Metal Casting leads to the Colossus, and often, taking MC from Oracle means you can start building it far earlier than your opponents. If you're in a situation where Colossus would be especially helpful, I'd take MC. (Especially if Industrious, when you get a bonus for both Forges and Colossus.)
I usually end up going CoL for courthouses and Conf. but that may just be because the way I play tends to favor that choice.
lasombra1984
Prince
Great Engineers is perfect for Guilds beeline.
1. Oracle - Metal Casing
2. 1st GE - Machinery
3. 2nd GE - Feudalism
4. Then we research Guilds normal way
5. 3rd GE - Engineering
It's great, though there's a little chaos in research way to get Mathematics for Hanging Gardens, Theology for Hagia Sophia & Alphabet for "build Research".
It's a pity that there's no Wonder that decreases anger rate from sacrificing population =)
1. Oracle - Metal Casing
2. 1st GE - Machinery
3. 2nd GE - Feudalism
4. Then we research Guilds normal way
5. 3rd GE - Engineering
It's great, though there's a little chaos in research way to get Mathematics for Hanging Gardens, Theology for Hagia Sophia & Alphabet for "build Research".
It's a pity that there's no Wonder that decreases anger rate from sacrificing population =)
I know this is an old thread but...
I'm surprised that no mention has been made of the hippodrome, which is surprisingly good for attempting cultural victories in the late game.
This is counter intuitive I know, because the UB doesn't allow you to select artists. But, setting the culture slider to 30% will give you another six happy, you're bound to have horses and the hippodrome without modifiers should give you another 3 smiley faces in your cities. More than enough to manage caste system even when other civs have adopted emancipation: which provides unlimited artists. Put it up to 100% for the final push and unhappiness from any source isn't even going to be an issue.
I'd play with justinian a little differently from the way the outline in this article goes. Your main benefit in the first 50 turns is going to be the ability to expand and this requires hammers, so I'd focus on techs to develop the land first, building a worker straight off and actually not worry about going for an early religion at all.
I'd then use the oracle to acquire code of laws, and the great priest from this to acquire theology. If any neighbours have spread an early religion to you, there's no reason why you can't adopt this if it benefits you diplomatically, but make sure you switch back to your relgion before finishing the AP, swopping back painlessly due to the spiritual trait to maintain relations.
The cheap temples would then make it easier to use the hammers bonus you get from religious buildings to give you a manufacturing edge. I'd spread my religion frugally to those I wanted to befriend, and use this to isolate opponents (spreading your religion to theocracies is not impossible: gift them your missionaries and because it's the AP religion they'll spread it for you). I'd top this off with acquiring university of sangkore and spiral minaret. Even if I don't choose to stay as my religion, temples of any religion are easy enough to build or whip.
Finally, the sistine chapel provides a signficant culture boost to state religious buildings, so if you have marble, go for music sooner rather than later. Cathedrals are an integral part of going for a cultural victory and whether or not you choose confuscianism or christianity as the ap religion will be heavily dependant upon whether you have bronze (a boost to building confuscian cathedrals if I remember correctly) or stone (a boost to building christian cathedrals).
And don't forget, if you have the AP and no-one has adopted your religion, you're the only one eligible for a diplomatic victory.
As such, I'd question the assertion that Justinian is only a warmonger because of his traits and UU. The cataphract because of its comparative strength isn't something I'd make a point of b-lining as it remains relevant on the battlefield far longer than the praetorian (it's nearest UU equivalent because of its strength bonus). I'd think of him as more of a balanced leader, capable of succeding either militiaristically or peacefully.
I'm surprised that no mention has been made of the hippodrome, which is surprisingly good for attempting cultural victories in the late game.
This is counter intuitive I know, because the UB doesn't allow you to select artists. But, setting the culture slider to 30% will give you another six happy, you're bound to have horses and the hippodrome without modifiers should give you another 3 smiley faces in your cities. More than enough to manage caste system even when other civs have adopted emancipation: which provides unlimited artists. Put it up to 100% for the final push and unhappiness from any source isn't even going to be an issue.
I'd play with justinian a little differently from the way the outline in this article goes. Your main benefit in the first 50 turns is going to be the ability to expand and this requires hammers, so I'd focus on techs to develop the land first, building a worker straight off and actually not worry about going for an early religion at all.
I'd then use the oracle to acquire code of laws, and the great priest from this to acquire theology. If any neighbours have spread an early religion to you, there's no reason why you can't adopt this if it benefits you diplomatically, but make sure you switch back to your relgion before finishing the AP, swopping back painlessly due to the spiritual trait to maintain relations.
The cheap temples would then make it easier to use the hammers bonus you get from religious buildings to give you a manufacturing edge. I'd spread my religion frugally to those I wanted to befriend, and use this to isolate opponents (spreading your religion to theocracies is not impossible: gift them your missionaries and because it's the AP religion they'll spread it for you). I'd top this off with acquiring university of sangkore and spiral minaret. Even if I don't choose to stay as my religion, temples of any religion are easy enough to build or whip.
Finally, the sistine chapel provides a signficant culture boost to state religious buildings, so if you have marble, go for music sooner rather than later. Cathedrals are an integral part of going for a cultural victory and whether or not you choose confuscianism or christianity as the ap religion will be heavily dependant upon whether you have bronze (a boost to building confuscian cathedrals if I remember correctly) or stone (a boost to building christian cathedrals).
And don't forget, if you have the AP and no-one has adopted your religion, you're the only one eligible for a diplomatic victory.
As such, I'd question the assertion that Justinian is only a warmonger because of his traits and UU. The cataphract because of its comparative strength isn't something I'd make a point of b-lining as it remains relevant on the battlefield far longer than the praetorian (it's nearest UU equivalent because of its strength bonus). I'd think of him as more of a balanced leader, capable of succeding either militiaristically or peacefully.
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