Concept: CiV's 2nd expansion - Thrive And Prosperity - Main Page

[Deggial]

Preposition

Edit 21.01.2013: While this thread was opend before G&K was launched, it is still up to date - now, as we all wait for news regarding "One World". So: read on!

You may ask: “Why do you post this now, Deggial? Aren't you happy about the upcoming expansion “Gods & Kings”? Why do you want more and always more? Will nothing ever satisfy you?”
Let me assure you, I am very satisfied with what I expect “Gods & Kings” will be! I even don't think, more is always better. So, the upcoming add-on might very well be the last one, we will ever see for Civilization 5. (Edit: Obviously not... )

On the other hand, there seem to be much more thinkable concepts, that would be worth being integrated in the game and maybe fun and interesting to play. And as we all thirst about new information about G&K, all sorts of threads are opened: “What about international trade routes?”, “I want corporations back!”, “We need a local health mechanism!”.

While - in general - I don't think, a game concept has to be in CiV, only because it was in Civ 4, I liked many of these “old” concepts, too. And I started thinking and the thoughts evolved and grew.
I was inspired by many posts here in this forum - too many to list. But I hope, the result is something unique - a bit different to all these great ideas mentioned already in this forum and different to what we know from Civ 4.

And about the question: “Why NOW?”
Well, if at all there is a time, when a game concept might be considered by the developers, it IS now! Right after the successful completion of the latest project and before all internal concepts are finalized and the new project starts.
And isn't this exactly, what we, as we post in this sub-forum, want? A dev, stumbling over our ideas and thinking: “Hey, this guy has really interesting ideas! Maybe we should think about this a little bit closer...”
(Er...yes. Additionally: After G&K is launched, I will PLAY this game... )

I hope you enjoy the read!

Cheers,
Deggial


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Concept: CiV's 2nd expansion - Thrive And Prosperity


Content:

Summary

1. Trade
__1.1 Rivers
__1.2 National trade
__1.3 International trade
____1.3.1 Preconditions to establish international trade routes
____1.3.2 The benefits of international trade
____1.3.3 The risks of international trade: easier espionage
____1.3.4 Remarks
2. Corporations and Economic Victory
__2.1 General concept
__2.2 Managing your corporations
____2.2.1 Founding corporations
____2.2.2 Spreading branches
____2.2.3 Developing the corporation
__2.3 Visual clues
__2.4 Interactions with the other game elements
__2.5 Economic Victory
3. Growing Settlements
__3.1 General concept
__3.2 Consequences
__3.3 Visual representation
__3.4 Interactions with the other game elements
4. Health
__4.1 General concept
__4.1 Consequences of a reached maximal size
__4.2 Allocating surplus bonus resources
__4.3 Remarks
5. Random Events
__5.1 General Concept
__5.2 UI representation
__5.3 EXAMPELS of random events
__5.4 Remaks
6. Cities and units
__6.1 Cities
__6.2 Units
____6.2.1 The infantry-path
____6.2.2 The mounted/armored-path
____6.2.3 The anti-mounted/armored-path
____6.2.4 The archer-path
____6.2.5 The gatling gun-path
____6.2.6 Other units
__6.3 Upgrading parallel units


Summary

In this concept, some game mechanics already known from Civilization 4 are re-introduced in Civilization 5. But while these mechanisms are not new themselves, all of them where significantly altered to fit into the new game and grant a new and hopefully interesting game experience.

International Trade routes will need new and limited national resources to be established. But after successfully ratified, they will grant gold based on the trading partner's population and the time of being in force.

Corporations will show up in a brand new appearance. They will grant bonuses to a certain number of tiles in the city radius. This influence may grow over the course of the game and eventually - if the owner is eager enough to spread them over the world - lead to a new Economic Victory.

Growing settlements as in Civ 4 make their comeback in CiV. But with the new mechanic proposed in this concept, landscape will not be cluttered with small settlements any more but show a natural looking mix of villages and fields.

A local health mechanism is proposed. Bonus resources may be allocated by a national trade system and prevent cities from famine and stagnation.

Finally, random events will test a civilization's capability to handle the challenges of fate or to take advantage of lucky opportunities.

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As all these topics are quite complex and sometimes sesquipedalian, I found it unacceptable to force my readers to swallow them in one big piece. Instead of that, I decided to split them into separate threads.
Please, follow the links in the content overview and discuss the separate concepts in the appropriate thread. If you want to state general comments, this thread might be the place to do so.

 

[Brawndo]

I'm growing suspicious that this was Firaxis' business model all along: take out basic features from Civ5 that were introduced in Civ 4 like trade, espionage, religions, corporations and more, then reintroduce them as DLC and expansion packs to get moar money.

 

[SuperWaffle247]

You thought this out very nicely. I'm impressed, and a bit jealous. I always have expansion ideas floating around but never can write them down like this. Did you have any additions for civs, units, and other buildings in mind for your expansion?

I like all of your ideas. I think corporations need simplification, to be honest. I understood it and I like the underlying idea but the presentation is a bit too complex and dense. I think the idea of having corporations give bonuses to nearby improvements is brilliant. I also love the trade mechanics. Merchandise reminds me of beliefs. Though maybe "goods" would be a better game term?

Overall, I really like this idea because it doesnt try to make Civ 5 into Civ 4. You took great, cool concepts from Civ 4 and reapplied them in new and interesting ways, continuing the trend of G+K and vanilla Civ 5.

 

[Deggial]

Thank you very much for your kind response!

Did you have any additions for civs, units, and other buildings in mind for your expansion?.

Don't tempt me!
To be honest, writing this down and "publishing" it, was sort of a self-cleaning process. All these ideas, floating around and working in my head, are sort of a annoyance, too. In writing them down, I am able to free my mind...

But to answer your question:
No ideas regarding civs. Of course, any new game element my be a possibility to create new UAs. A trading empire (e.g. the Netherlands), could very well posses additional SM (goods) or receive a higher benefit out of international trade routes.
(Some time ago, I had some queer ideas regarding Huns and Vikings, if you want to have a look. Maybe, these ideas could be used for some other civs, too. Unfortunately, I tailored them around these special civs and I don't think, they would fit to others as well.)

Units: I think, there are already plenty of them, after G&K. At some point, there can even be to many elements.
I could imagine a continuation of the scout line, though. There is a recent thread about this, with plenty of ideas.
After playing G&K we'll see, if there is room left for additional units. (In the above mentioned "Vikings-Thread", there are some proposal regarding new units with very special abilities, too.)

Buildings: Only a view. In general, I have the same reservations as with too many units.
There will have to be some new balance, though, to accommodate the surplus money that will be available with trade and growing settlements.
Even if it is not very popular, I think there should be a higher upkeep for some buildings. Especially buildings at the end of a development line might be more expensive to maintain. The benefit they grant might be higher in compensation, though.
EXAMPLES:

• The "Military Academy" may cost 3 gpt (instead of 1 gpt), but grants +25 XP (instead of +15 XP)
• The "Military Base" may cost 1 or 2 gpt (instead of 0), but will grant +15 Defense (instead of +12) and expands city attack range to 3 tiles.

The idea behind this is, that there might be "moderately developed" countries, that relay on cheaper, but broad spread technology. And then, there is the highly sophisticated society, with high-tech buildings. A Society, that is powerful but *very* expensive to maintain.

If you want to keep maintenance free city defense (Military Base), you could introduce a new building to raise defense radius as mentioned, too. This could be called "Active City Defense System" or something like that.

I think corporations need simplification, to be honest. I understood it and I like the underlying idea but the presentation is a bit too complex and dense.

I agree. I was a little bit overwhelmed by this screen, too.

I think, the left side is OK. I would have preferred, if I wouldn't have needed the scroll bar, though.

It's the right side, that is problematic. I don't like the double lines, here.

The point is that I think, the "efficiency" information will be *incredible* useful! Maybe the corporation icons might be bigger and the percentage information placed *inside* them. Maybe, I'll try this.
The color code for non/own/enemy corporations present might look a little bit irritating at first, but I think, you will get used to it soon.

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Edit:
Or did you mean, that the presentation of the concept *itself* is too complicated and condensed? You are right, the concept *is* quite complex!

Hm..., maybe I should add some more examples. (The concept of "Efficency" is not explained, at all!)

But then, I'm always afraid of beeing too exclamatory and try to stay as short and precise as possible...

I also love the trade mechanics. Merchandise reminds me of beliefs. Though maybe "goods" would be a better game term?

Yes, there is some correspondence. But I think/hope, it is not too close, as Civ4's corporations where blamed to be sheer copies of religions.
After all, *everything* that is worthwhile to build, has to grant some benefits. And this will always be some sort of bonus in CiV - there is no difference in religion and corporations.

Renaming "Special Merchandise" into "Goods":
A very good proposal! That's the problem, when not being a native speaker: you miss the easiest solution, sometimes. If I have the time, I might change this.

Overall, I really like this idea because it doesn't try to make Civ 5 into Civ 4. You took great, cool concepts from Civ 4 and reapplied them in new and interesting ways, continuing the trend of G+K and vanilla Civ 5.

Thank you very much! Really! This is the nicest thing you could say, as this is exactly what I intended!

 

[SuperWaffle247]

When I said the presentation of corporations was too complex was too intense, I was referring to the interface prototypes you made, particularly the stuff under the city label.

I read the Huns and Vikings ideas, though I particularly liked the proposed Carthage UA that you wrote about. Being able to buy other UUs would be very interesting...

I agree that some buildings (and even units) will need to have higher gpt costs for balance. Maybe some other things that you can add in can help with this also. There could be a Public Transport building like in BtS which could help with the health system. Another possibility is a highway system which could tie into corporations. Both would make sense to have very high maintenance costs. Therefore only wealthy Civs which have properly used corporations and merchandise would be able to use them without running out of money.

I really like all of your ideas and I'd love to end up being able to play them!

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I'm sad your concept does not include U.N voting resolutions as well as teh A.P D:

 

[SHaW1986]

in regards to corporations, i feel that depending on the policies you choose it should alter the way in which the corporations work, ie. in Order and Autocracy the corporations are controlled by the player or "state" as opposed to say in Freedom where the corporations are allowed to just grow and develop on their own.

 

[epicivfreak]

I'm growing suspicious that this was Firaxis' business model all along: take out basic features from Civ5 that were introduced in Civ 4 like trade, espionage, religions, corporations and more, then reintroduce them as DLC and expansion packs to get moar money.

That has been the model since civ 3 - release the basic game, add in expansion 1 and add in expansion 2. The only difference this time (with civ 5) is that they did DLC and then an expansion.

Anyhow, back on topic...
I'm off to read and respond to this epic post.

 

[awesome]

i also wouldn't be surprised if they expanded the classical era by a few techs. they might do that in this expansion, but i'd expect a slightly larger focus in another expansion. maybe about 4 techs, 1 or 2 units, one or two buildings and a wonder. and then i'd love for them to expand the future era some more and could probably think of some stuff for it, too, but i'd expect that to be more of a scenario/mod thing.
as for the concepts in these threads, i agree that this was probably their plan all along, but there are definitely some good ideas.

 

[Deggial]

I'm sad your concept does not include U.N voting resolutions as well as teh A.P D:

Well, this concepts won't necessary be the only content of an expansion (there are no new units mentioned, nor any new civs)!

I'm not so sure, how the A.P. would fit in, but I definitely could see some impact for the U.N.

An generally enforced "open boarders" arrangement, for example, would have an effect on corporation cash flow.
There might be agreements thinkable, that influence the revenues of international trade routes or the upkeep of foreign corporations in your cities.

There is plenty of space left...

 

[Battlehelm043]

Deggial, I have to say this is a very comprehensive addition to Civ, I myself have been trying to create a Diplomacy expansion that clearly needs to be done following G&K. Yet I so far cannot come up with any numbers to justify changes. With my International Studies under my belt I was curious if you would be interested in helping to brain storm ideas for what a possible Diplomacy Expansion would look like. It clearly would rely on key elements of what you have suggested here as Trade is critical to diplomacy on many levels.

 

[Deggial]

Thank you, Battlehelm, for your kind words and for your honorable proposal.

While I think that new concepts are always fun to make, I'm afraid it is way to late for any (even hypothetical) impact on the game development. As I remarked at the introduction, some month ago might have been a more reasonable time.

As my work and my partner doesn't leave me much time to do any further concepts right now, I'm afraid, you will have to rely on yourself regarding your ideas. Feel free to build up on my trade suggestions, of course!
Additionally, I'm quite comfortable with CiV's diplomacy model right now. (Wired, I know. But I really am! Maybe some tweaks here and there, but no mayor complaints on my side.) Anyway, I would be interested in reading about your ideas, if you might find some time to write them down despite your other duties.

 

[mrc2022]

Wow this is great!
This should be shared and viewed by all modders, perhaps a modding team could be raised to the effect of adding this to the game.
There are some ideas that would be up to discussion but you left me with the feeling I shouldn't have read this cause I'll be lacking this in the game...
Great work