Concept of a nation.

Originally posted by jedi rat
That is what I was talking about – “we do not want you”. As long as there is US and THEM that long all of us will have to face wars, terrorism, trade discriminations etc…
I thought my misreading of this would be worth pointing out.

So interpret:
As long as the US need a THEM to distinguish themselves from, all of us will have to face wars, terrorism, trade discriminations etc…

Untrue no doubt, but why miss an oppurtunity to laugh at jingoistic americans?
 
Uhh, allan, I don't think you understand.

The right to practice religion and be free from oppression because of your race/religion etc. would be the MAIN rule in my world government. Thus, if you were in the KKK or another racist group you may feel you views were being oppressed, because you do not believe in equality.

Understand?
 
This is getting interesting…

At first – nation. As I said, I believe that our country may protect me only from other country, so if you remove feeling of, “this is my country”, there would be nothing that my country could protect me from as there would be no countries …. hm a bit hairy but I hope you get what I mean.
If you think that a country will give you protection from issues like; starvation, terrorism, wars, unfair trade etc – just look at history. You may be lucky to survive a war but what if your wife is raped to death by others, or your sun cooked to death??? Would you want to survive?
The feeling of: me a citizen of…….. is not in our nature. I believe that it was created by sick and fame, money hungry bastards just to get masses to fight for theirs twisted plans.

We humans need: food, shelter, sex, love, fulfilling our ambitions, respect, recognition. Has any one in history mentioned a country? I have been to almost 20 countries and I lived in 2 for long time. I have friends from all different nationalities, religions and all of them could be my neighbour.
All is needed is love, respect, understanding…. Why does anyone think that is better just because lives in different country?

Issues like common government or religion … Once we learn to respect we will not feel need to fight for my religion as your religion will not be able to interfere with my religion – as long as we respect each other. No religion “promotes” killing in the name of its God. It is some of humans who turn rules around, wrap them into feeling of a patriot and order to fight in the name of a God or a nation.
Of course there would be people who would abuse the system, but it is not that the system fails but us humans. We could only hope that those “black sheep” would learn to respect others.

Are we afraid to give away half of what we have to those who have nothing? Would thousands of jobs be lost in Govt departments? I guess many of us prefers to live things the way they are and hope that my Govt will protect me from terrorist, wars etc… well… when it fails we can always blame God that left us!!!
 
We are slowly building jedi rat's concept right now. Almost everyone in this forum lives in a nation that has signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is meant to be a bill of rights that is hihgher in the eyes of the law then any other document. When they signed it they said that their constitution will reflect the rights set forth under the UDHR. I don't know about most countries but Canada is already having some legal trouble becasue of it. We have gotten in trouble with the UN for having; seperate school system (catholics have their own schools in ontario), varoius native treaty violations, and sometihng to do with the right to security of the person (our laws don't include economic securtiy, the UDHR does). The only trouble is that the UN doesn't have any teeth. We have received no fines, we ahve not had our seat in the assembly taken away, no economic sanctions. So it seems that the best way to realize jedi rat's plan (something i'm in favour of) is to give the UN some teeth.
 
A single world government would be disasterous.

An overwhelming majority of countries have per capita incomes of less than $700 per year.

What do you think is going to happen to the United States, Japan, the United Kingdom, etc. if there was a single world government?

Everything you own would be confiscated by the oppressive regime, and redistribute it to people that haven't earned it and people that are going to use it against the West.

Globalization would be murder for the industrialized world, the capitalist world, and all good, civil, decent, hard working people in those countries.
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
Everything you own would be confiscated by the oppressive regime, and redistribute it to people that haven't earned it and people that are going to use it against the West.

Why do you automatically assume the government is going to be oppressive?

I'm really getting tired of your pessimistic and "dooms-day" point of view. It's really a downer.
 
rmsharpe
How much is worth life of a human being?
How much is worth life of your son (if you have one)?

Would you trade half of your home for life of you family?
What if I tell you that if you give half of what you have got you will never face a war.
Saying that people in developed countries work harder then others is just a joke!!! Are you suggesting that your capitalist ass is working harder then slaved workers in China, India, Africa etc??? Are you saying that you are a better human being just because you get more per hour then others in week???

It is our duty to free those people from oppressive govts and take care of them.

There are two reasons:
1 – romantic – we are equal, we all deserve same life styles etc.
2 – pragmatic – the only way to be safe is to eliminate those who can harm you. One way is atomic bomb them or the second let them enjoy your lifestyle – the choice is in well developed countries hands.
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
A single world government would be disasterous.

Hmm. Alright lets see how you defend this claim.

An overwhelming majority of countries have per capita incomes of less than $700 per year.

Is any point related to this factual claim?

What do you think is going to happen to the United States, Japan, the United Kingdom, etc. if there was a single world government?

Worst case they lose a little money.

Everything you own would be confiscated by the oppressive regime, and redistribute it to people that haven't earned it and people that are going to use it against the West.

Damnit who do you think runs the UN? Stalin? They might raise your taxes, which are lower then anywhere else in the G-8

Globalization would be murder for the industrialized world, the capitalist world, and all good, civil, decent, hard working people in those countries.

Pure scare mongering.


If you want to critcize the idea of a world governement at least have some sort of logic to your arguements. Tales of boogeymen under the bed only scare children.
 
Originally posted by Whiskey Priest
Hmm. Alright lets see how you defend this claim.

There's not a signifigant enough benefit to it in order to make the change.
 
Originally posted by jedi rat
How much is worth life of a human being?

IIRC, Aprox. $1.25.

2 – pragmatic – the only way to be safe is to eliminate those who can harm you.

Go genocide! :goodjob: At least Whiskey Priest can defend his position without resorting to pointless logical fallacies.
 
“Do not fix it if it ain’t broken” - is it what you meant?
My friend if everybody thought like that we would have been chasing elephants with a stone in hand!


“IIRC, Aprox. $1.25.”

– surely you are just a lonely selfish, lost soul – have family and say that to you wife and children….


“Go genocide! At least Whiskey Priest can defend his position without resorting to pointless logical fallacies.”

- go and say that to famillies of those who lost close ones on 11th sept, in Vietnam, during WW2 etc…
oh wait…. ignorace just works fine!!!
 
Let's count the errors in this post.

Originally posted by jedi rat
“Do not fix it if it ain’t broken” - is it what you meant?

#1 Mr. Strawman

My Response: No, it isn't. I actually said what I meant. Could you try responding to that instead o your own invention or at least asking for clarification if you don't understand something?

“IIRC, Aprox. $1.25.”

– surely you are just a lonely selfish, lost soul – have family and say that to you wife and children….

I'll have to refer this one to the judges but #2 looks like Attacking the Person.

My Response: Scientifically, I actually do believe that it is worth that much. I'm perfectly willing to be corrected on this point if someone else has more information on the subject.


“Go genocide! At least Whiskey Priest can defend his position without resorting to pointless logical fallacies.”

- go and say that to famillies of those who lost close ones on 11th sept, in Vietnam, during WW2 etc

I'm actually not sure about #3 but it appears to meet the criteria of Appeal to Pity

I don't see how this has to do with your overall arguement.
 
What the...?

DinoDoc

You said that a single govt would bring no benefit (be disasterous) - in other words you say do not change what we have as the new has no benefits.

As to that $1.25 is it USD or AUD? hehe...
Either way if that is how much you value your life that how much you are worth to me! MR 1.25!!!

Simple, I said that to be safe you have to eliminate your enemies - clear so far? There are two way peaceful or with help of sword. If you say that this is pointless logic I tell you that those who lost families in conflicts would have wished that there had never been enemies who killed those friends and families. How to eleminate them? go back three lines.
 
"The right to practice religion and be free from oppression because of your race/religion etc. would be the MAIN rule in my world government. Thus, if you were in the KKK or another racist group you may feel you views were being oppressed, because you do not believe in equality."

Thanks for the clarification. The way you worded it originally gave me the opposite impression however: "Any other laws could be made by the regions, and thus, you could move somewhere else from opression, unless you're in the KKK and the right to practice any religion is wrong , of course." Perhaps you should have said, "you're in the KKK and you think that the right to practice..." but I'm picking at nits here.

Anyway, that's fine and good that YOUR ideal world government would be democratic and ensure liberties--however to what extent would be my question.

However, if you witness the evolution of the US you will see a demonstration of how liberties tend to slowly but surely be diminished, chipped away piece by piece, when there is a powerful central government. This isn't new--it actually happens in most large democratic nations--because most people tend to look at short-term problems rather than long-term consequences of the "solutions" (often not really solutions at all) that they, often prodded by politicians, consent to out of the "needs of the moment".

I say that the best level of governance is the individual--who can decide almost everything by himself. Followed by community (municipal, county, etc.) government, where people actually KNOW each other in many cases, and care about one another, and share common concerns, and where individuals can TRULY have a voice (including physical presence at "town meetings" and such). Then there's state (or provincial, as it may be) government, where we begin to step into the impersonal but there is still commonality--and such governments traditionally deal in criminal laws to keep the anonymous public safe. Finally there is federal government--and in a large nation such as the US, the level is SO impersonal and detatched from the people that it should be VERY limited, i.e. providing for the common defense and little else. Again ideally, power should DECREASE in this sequence. I.e. the MOST power should be closest to the people, wherever they are.

So you can see that by the time we get to a hypothetical WORLD government level, it would be totally impersonal, the local ramifications of their decisions from afar could almost never effectively be judged from that distance, and each person would have only one five-billionth of the "voice" if it were democratic. And most of the people (or the representatives from their countries) would not KNOW fully what the effects of their vote would be halfway across the world--and an uninformed vote is as useless as tits on a boar. In fact uninformed votes can often be very DESTRUCTIVE.

SO, what should the role of this World Government be? Ideally VERY limited at best, perhaps refereeing international disputes if anything. And more importantly, how will we all ensure that it stays confined to that role? The US has a Constitution, and yet even THAT cannot keep the federal government in its intended confines. Someone here said that absolute power corrupts absolutely--HEED that time-honored quote, for history does and will continue to bear that out as fact.

And even if the WG is effectively confined to the "referee" role, will that still be fair? If many countries decide to "gang up" with their votes on a country or people that was wrongfully aggressed (Israel comes to mind, but the next example could be anyone's country, in the future), and thereby prevents that country or people from effectively defending themselves, would THAT be fair and right?

No, I suggested that treaties could be drawn up, and ratified by each country (perhaps the treaty could include a free trade clause that would give countries incentive to sign it) until they became universal, that would set down rules for conduct between nations--i.e. no initiation of aggression allowed, and maybe some other things--and would be enforced as a rule of law (violators get boycotted by all treaty signatories, and possibly get punished militarily depending on the rule violated), not at the whim of a voting body who may favor some violators over others. This arrangement would NOT require a world government, only the will and resolve of the nations to honor the treaty. And most would have that, so the few that do not honor it could be dealt with relatively easily.

Of course, throughout these posts we've been assuming that a hypothetical WG would be democratic, and would stay that way. Can we even ensure THAT? Remember that most of the world's people do NOT share the same democratic traditions that we in the West do.

If the WG were a libertarian one, with the mission of protecting the full liberty (i.e. more than anyone has in any country now) of every individual on the planet, that would be about the only case where I would favor it. But again, libertarianism is MY idea of perfection (well, as near to perfection as we can get). Everyone has different ideas. Since true libertarianism has never been tried, I would actually prefer to have a few countries (including my own) try it for a good length of time, and see how it does in relation to other systems. Same with any other system.

And would a WG really protect against wars? What about armed guerilla struggles against it? What about people or countries who do not wish to join? How will THEY be handled?

Before you parade this peace-and-love fantasy before us, PLEASE consider some of these things I've said here. Will we in our traditionally democratic countries become MORE free or less free under such a government? How can we ensure our freedom? If we find we are LESS free, what could we do about it once a WG is in place?

Let's not be rash....
 
Well, the original point in this thread was stopping war, so instead, why not break the countries up really small? If you had City States, many countries would be too small to have a decent millitary, and for those it did, it would be uneconomical as those large cities know the best way to make money is to keep your trading partners alive.

Also, for the nations that wanted to, human rights would be much easier to enforce, due to having only one city to worry about.
 
Originally posted by Sixchan
If you had City States, many countries would be too small to have a decent millitary, and for those it did, it would be uneconomical as those large cities know the best way to make money is to keep your trading partners alive.

Sparta, Athens, etc.
 
Allan, not if you know that, in Spanish, buck means ****old, (not if I explain in English well), or that your wife goes to bed with other men, and it is one of the bad insults.
 
Problem of World Government may be the hardest of issues. I like the idea of cities (Sparta, Athens …) Of course some cities would be in better position, economically at least, then others. On other hand I do not think that any city would grow strong enough to threaten the World. I am sure that removal of boundaries would result in massive move of people from one cities to others – that could be dangerous.

I think that process of uniting cannot be done in one day or even year. Countries have to voluntary join in unions, first unify army, economies etc. (similarly to EU) then at last govts. Of course that would result in a handful unions (rich and poor) and then probably we would have to face The Greatest Revolution (as the rich would not be likely to give up theirs standards). The revolution would not be union VS union but rich in all unions VS poor in all unions. After the revolution all boundaries would disappear and riches of World would be divided. People would move in peace to different cities but immediate one united govt would be created. That would be only governing body allowed with absolute power.

Hm… a bit dark future, but reading peoples attitude I do not see other options to end wars etc.

Of course we may choose to go through that process in peace, but this is very unlikely.

I believe that if the trend of larger gap between rich and poor continious there is no place for peace. History has shown us that on a few occasions - why we never learn?!?
 
Originally posted by Whiskey Priest
Damnit who do you think runs the UN? Stalin?

I'd say more of a Mao Tse Tung...

They might raise your taxes, which are lower then anywhere else in the G-8

You think I want to be taxed MORE and be PUNISHED for doing well? Hell no!
 
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