Conservative values?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Rofl. This is like Loose Change. But a bit less funny. The only real redeeming feature of your tl/dr posts is they have probably driven most people away since they have no desire to read that much. Heh. Its certainly not worth trying to argue it with you on any real basis because you simply wont recognize any opinion other than your own as being correct. Thats not debate, thats simply spewing propaganda.

Oh, MobBoss, if I felt like I could change your opinion, I'd be arguing this differently. Your views were never up for grabs, don't even act like they were. I made a thread dedicated to showing examples of conservative hypocrisy; not a thread dedicated to bashing all conservatives.

When you showed up to defend those conservatives I am picking on, then you'd better have the facts on your side. You do not.

That is why you have to walk away now. You've proven none of your points, save one example about gays abusing DADT. I'm not so stubborn as to not admit when I was wrong about something. But that's one thing, one minor thing might I add, one minor thing which doesn't overturn but rather reinforces my main point about DADT needing to be abolished might I add, where I've given dozens and dozens of examples of other things which you've either not contested at all, denied but never got close to disproving, or simply said "ad hominem" (falsely) or that "Democrats do it too", which again is not a defense.

The reason why you felt compelled to knee-jerk defend the conservatives, interestingly enough, the scummiest of the scum, the adulterers and pedophiles, is because YOU can't stand seeing your own side get bashed.

That's why you're here. That's why you're not disputing all of the inconsistencies on policy the Republicans are employing, because that's not particularly damaging or hidden from view. It's a cynical tactic, plain and simple, and you can live with that level of hypocrisy.

The really embarrassing stuff is the stuff you are compelled to deny, because you simply can't let it stand that dozens, hundreds even, of conservative, religious, or republican leaders (usually all three) end up getting caught with their pants down, especially those people who are leaders of the "family values" campaign against gays.

Probably the root of this is your own personal positions, could you perhaps be against homosexuals? That might be what's causing these knee-jerk reactions.

Seeing you twist and squirm and IGNORE the congressmen and senators that YOU asked for, and pretending like they aren't there, is all I needed to see.

By the way, where's my credit on proving you wrong about all the things I proved you wrong on? You did see that link where McCain ties Obama to terrorism, which you conveniently couldn't recall.

"I'm John McCain and I approve this message" and the message itself is quite clear.

If anyone is here to spew propaganda, it is you.

You can't let it stand that there's conservative "family values" wolves in sheep's clothing. You've tried and failed to disprove, so now you dismiss.

If I were here saying all conservatives (which you keep falsely claiming I do) or all Republicans (etc), and denying Democrats did anything wrong, perhaps you'd have a leg to stand on with your arguments. But you don't... I've taken two-faced Democrats to task on their positions, and called out Bill Clinton for being on the wrong side of DADT, and John Edwards for being an adulterous bastard as well. I've called the party-line Democratic bill for healthcare what it is, a compromised piece of garbage.

I've never denied any allegation against any Democrat either.

So, your counterattacks are meaningless. And your defenses against my allegations are either nonexistent or nonsubstantive or, as you might say, nonsense, because they ignore the facts in front of your face.

I mean really. Even that which you offer is so poorly supported its not even really funny. County reps. Junior state senators that no one outside of Florida heard of. Etc. Etc. Your google browser must be smoking.

This is exactly what I am talking about. They weren't all country reps or state senators, Mobby. And I was limiting it to just Gay scandals. Should I expand to adultery, child porn, divorce, or pedophilia, and you'll have a LOT more Senators and Congressmen as examples.

Don't even try, you're embarrassing yourself.

You even say you might find a hundred. Well guess what? WHO CARES. Finding a hundred examples of people who break the law that happen to be conservative/religious/GOP doesnt prove ANYTHING, when one considers how many conservatives/religious/GOPers are out there.

This is nothing more than a sad acceptance of my premises. When you say "Who Cares" that's a surrender of your point.

If I had half a mind and were that rabid, I could do the exact same and list decades of democrats and their sex scandals, drug use, criminal historys, etc. etc. But its not really worth it, since it still doesnt prove the allegation. Just like in your case.

I opened up an invitation to do so (with the caveat it was in a parallel thread as this is about conservative hypocrisy) early on in this thread. Hypocrites deserve to be exposed. Go hog wild.

And it CERTAINLY doesnt prove that their acts are a 'conservative value' or anything remote to it like you allege in your OP.

Straw man, Mobby?

I expected better from you. Nowhere do I say these are conservative values.

In fact, my entire argument is based upon the premise that these are all, collectively, BETRAYALS OF CONSERVATIVE VALUES.

So you're arguing against something I'm not even arguing, and what I am actually arguing is something you have tried to deny but cannot deny.

By every conceivable measure, you've utterly lost the argument.

All you do is take the acts of a extremely small set of what you define as hypocrites (some actually are, some arent) and use it as an example to identify/label the entire demograph.

Actually, in an earlier post I called on conservatives to ask for better of their leaders and to toss these bastards out, and to "clean house".

Why would I do that if I was arguing all conservatives were like this?

The entire premise of your post is completely off-base.

I'll let you figure out what flavor of logical fallacy that is.

In your case, it's called using "ad hominem" incorrectly, and also called straw man fallacy.

Point, set, match.

 

[JollyRoger]

Rofl. This is like Loose Change. But a bit less funny. The only real redeeming feature of your tl/dr posts is they have probably driven most people away since they have no desire to read that much. Heh. Its certainly not worth trying to argue it with you on any real basis because you simply wont recognize any opinion other than your own as being correct. Thats not debate, thats simply spewing propaganda.

I mean really. Even that which you offer is so poorly supported its not even really funny. County reps. Junior state senators that no one outside of Florida heard of. Etc. Etc. Your google browser must be smoking.

You even say you might find a hundred. Well guess what? WHO CARES. Finding a hundred examples of people who break the law that happen to be conservative/religious/GOP doesnt prove ANYTHING, when one considers how many conservatives/religious/GOPers are out there.

If I had half a mind and were that rabid, I could do the exact same and list decades of democrats and their sex scandals, drug use, criminal historys, etc. etc. But its not really worth it, since it still doesnt prove the allegation. Just like in your case.

And it CERTAINLY doesnt prove that their acts are a 'conservative value' or anything remote to it like you allege in your OP.

All you do is take the acts of a extremely small set of what you define as hypocrites (some actually are, some arent) and use it as an example to identify/label the entire demograph.

I'll let you figure out what flavor of logical fallacy that is.

tl;dr

 

[Phrossack]

Mobby, once again you think that just because Dems do bad things, it's perfectly acceptable for Republicans to do them, too. This is a horrendous argument, and one you seem to always present without fail whenever Republicans are criticized for doing something wrong. If you gladly abandon the moral high ground by gleefully leaping into the same muck as the Democrats, and defend your unacceptable actions by childishly whining, "But they do it, to!", then it's obvious there's something very wrong.

 

[MobBoss]

Mobby, once again you think that just because Dems do bad things, it's perfectly acceptable for Republicans to do them, too.

Never said that and I did say there were indeed hypocrites on both sides didnt I?

What I object to is trying to sell what the hypocrites do as 'conservative values'.

Their not.

This is a horrendous argument, and one you seem to always present without fail whenever Republicans are criticized for doing something wrong.

Because both the republicans and democrats are larger than what stupid individuals within those parties do.

If you gladly abandon the moral high ground by gleefully leaping into the same muck as the Democrats, and defend your unacceptable actions by childishly whining, "But they do it, to!", then it's obvious there's something very wrong.

You apparently missed the entire premise of the OP.

 

[MobBoss]

Oh, MobBoss, if I felt like I could change your opinion, I'd be arguing this differently. Your views were never up for grabs, don't even act like they were. I made a thread dedicated to showing examples of conservative hypocrisy; not a thread dedicated to bashing all conservatives.

Then the title of the thread is in error? Because it sure seems to me that you go much, much further than showing simple examples of conservative hypocrisy.

When you showed up to defend those conservatives I am picking on, then you'd better have the facts on your side. You do not.

Simply pointing out where your 'facts' are allegation, and unsupported is enough.

That is why you have to walk away now.

Not at all. I know your type. All I am doing is showing you wrong in your premise. You wont accept that I have, and certainly some posters will deny this as well, but its not for them or you that I am pointing out your inconsistencies. Its for others that read this and agree with what I have shown.

You've proven none of your points

Sure I have. I have proven plenty. But again, your own hatred of conservatives/religious/GOP wont allow you to see otherwise however.

I'm not so stubborn as to not admit when I was wrong about something.

Right.

But that's one thing, one minor thing might I add, one minor thing which doesn't overturn but rather reinforces my main point about DADT needing to be abolished might I add, where I've given dozens and dozens of examples of other things which you've either not contested at all, denied but never got close to disproving, or simply said "ad hominem" (falsely) or that "Democrats do it too", which again is not a defense.

See how you downplay my point and actually try to twist it into a victory for you?

Thats what I am talking about. Thats why this conversation isnt going to get anywhere at all. You simply cant admit it when someone else scores points or shows where your argument is lacking or not even factual.

But its ok. If you want to go on touting county GOP reps as 'republican leaders' then thats your own business. I know I am not going to convince you otherwise, I simply showed up to show how wrong your allegations are.

The reason why you felt compelled to knee-jerk defend the conservatives, interestingly enough, the scummiest of the scum, the adulterers and pedophiles, is because YOU can't stand seeing your own side get bashed.

Nope. My point was that scum, adulterers, pedophiles, etc. exist on both sides of the aisle, and one side isnt necessarily better than the other in that regard.

Mind you, thats not an excuse of hypocrites and their behavior, simply a factual point about human behavior. Bad people/hypocrites exist in every demograph, no matter how moral or ethical they may claim to be.

It's a cynical tactic, plain and simple, and you can live with that level of hypocrisy.

Hypocrites exist. Thats a fact, but its not necessarily a condemnation of either conservative values or liberal values. Its just a fact of human nature.

The really embarrassing stuff is the stuff you are compelled to deny, because you simply can't let it stand that dozens, hundreds even, of conservative, religious, or republican leaders (usually all three) end up getting caught with their pants down, especially those people who are leaders of the "family values" campaign against gays.

I dont deny they did it. But I do deny its relevance as regards the whole. Like I said, your better at spotting the needles in the haystack than seeing the condition of the hay itself.

And no...the people you have mentioned simply arent the 'leaders' of family values. You have failed utterly to attribute that point effectively. I mean really, county reps? Sheesh.

Probably the root of this is your own personal positions, could you perhaps be against homosexuals? That might be what's causing these knee-jerk reactions.

Rofl, you probably shouldnt speculate like that.

Seeing you twist and squirm and IGNORE the congressmen and senators that YOU asked for, and pretending like they aren't there, is all I needed to see.

Your seeing things that didnt happen. I didnt twist and squirm. In fact, I didnt even try that hard to address your ramblings because its pretty much fruitless to argue with someone with your mindset. Of course you would attribute that as some points for you instead of recognizing it for what it really is. There is nothing to be gained by arguing specific points with someone as fanatical as you are in regards to your beliefs about conservatives. So I did what I did - simply pointed out where your facts werent facts at all, but simple allegation, and made mention of the truth, for example, that one mans opinion a 'conservative value' make....no matter how much you try to make it seem that way.

If anyone is here to spew propaganda, it is you.

Not really. Saying things like conservatives support abortion murderers is propaganda. That conservatives support christian militias that plan to kill cops is propaganda. Etc. etc.

You can't let it stand that there's conservative "family values" wolves in sheep's clothing. You've tried and failed to disprove, so now you dismiss.

As I have said, I have shown your allegations where you said they were facts, and proven your 'leaders' arent really that, among other things.

Are there hypocrits? Of course there are. I dont deny that. But I do deny that the acts of those so few people indicate what 'conservative values' are by your interpretation.

This is exactly what I am talking about. They weren't all country reps or state senators, Mobby. And I was limiting it to just Gay scandals. Should I expand to adultery, child porn, divorce, or pedophilia, and you'll have a LOT more Senators and Congressmen as examples.

Don't even try, you're embarrassing yourself.

This is nothing more than a sad acceptance of my premises. When you say "Who Cares" that's a surrender of your point.

Not at all. Its an indication of how meaningless your point is in regards to the big picture.

I expected better from you. Nowhere do I say these are conservative values.

Rofl. Try reading the OP title as well as the OP. The way I read the OP is it is indeed a blanket smearing of what you think conservative values are. Thats my opinion at least. Ymmv.

By every conceivable measure, you've utterly lost the argument.

Rofl. An utterly predictable claim by you. Never woulda saw that coming.

Point, set, match.

Again, predictable. At least you dont disappoint in that regard.

 

[cardgame]

Hmm.

See how you downplay my point and actually try to twist it into a victory for you?

Thats what I am talking about. Thats why this conversation isnt going to get anywhere at all. You simply cant admit it when someone else scores points or shows where your argument is lacking or not even factual.

LOLWUT?

DADT is abused (to get out of the military I assume)

and this is NOT a reason to get rid of it?

Thats what I am talking about. Thats why this conversation isnt going to get anywhere at all. You simply cant admit it when someone else scores points or shows where your argument is lacking or not even factual.

ironic statement is ironic

 

[MobBoss]

Hmm.



LOLWUT?

DADT is abused (to get out of the military I assume)

and this is NOT a reason to get rid of it?

Did I say that?

I have never purported to believe that DADT is perfect. But it does work the way its intended. Self-disclosure is simply a possible fact of all military admin separations, not just DADT.

 

[JollyRoger]

Mobby is right about Democrats being involved in scandal to the same extent as Republicans. Fox News has shown plenty of Democrats such as David Vitter, Larry Craig, Mark Foley, and Mark Sanford in a heap of trouble. It's probably why Republican Sheldon Whitehouse defeated Democrat Lincoln Chafee for that Rhode Island Senate seat.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Then the title of the thread is in error? Because it sure seems to me that you go much, much further than showing simple examples of conservative hypocrisy.

Oh no, the thread title is absolutely perfect. It's like when Fox News does that thing where they don't actually slander someone, because they phrase it in the form of a question, then they claim they are just "asking questions".

So, conservative values? Is more of a caption, than an explanation. It's intended to grab you and reel you in.

Not at all. I know your type. All I am doing is showing you wrong in your premise. You wont accept that I have, and certainly some posters will deny this as well, but its not for them or you that I am pointing out your inconsistencies. Its for others that read this and agree with what I have shown.

Haven't shown where the premise is wrong yet.

I know full well your posts are simply to get people who already agree with you to nod their heads. That's probably why you're disengaging.

Sure I have. I have proven plenty. But again, your own hatred of conservatives/religious/GOP wont allow you to see otherwise however.

"Right."

See how you downplay my point and actually try to twist it into a victory for you?

Yes, I see it because I did it. I give you full points on being correct about a fact, but within the larger discussion, that fact makes DADT even more ridiculous, which is my whole point.

How could I NOT accept that as a victory for my case against DADT?

Do you really think that because you showed me a fact I wasn't aware of, that all of a sudden all of my other points are now invalid, especially if that fact supports my other points?

MobBoss, I can respect that you're trying. Actually to tell you the truth, I've had a lot of fun debating with you about this. You are putting up a valiant effort.

But I'd be doing myself, my premise, the readers, and yes, even you a disservice if I just abandoned my points when you are correct about a fact, which again, supports my premise.

This is actually one where you and I can both be right, and I didn't hesitate to give you full credit on a fact. Unless you prove me wrong about something, that's the best you can expect, and the best I can give you.

Thats what I am talking about. Thats why this conversation isnt going to get anywhere at all. You simply cant admit it when (A) someone else scores points or (B) shows where your argument is lacking or not even factual.

(A) Yes I can, and did, so this is invalid.
(B) What you consider lacking is a matter of opinion, the facts however are on my side.

But its ok. If you want to go on touting county GOP reps as 'republican leaders' then thats your own business. I know I am not going to convince you otherwise, I simply showed up to show how wrong your allegations are.

MobBoss, remove the county GOP rep, and then go back and re-read it.

You don't accept the county GOP rep, and that's fine, whatever standards you want to hold are your business. But it wasn't just county GOP reps, and it wasn't just one of them.

And the allegations weren't wrong either. You're being dishonest.

Nope. My point was that scum, adulterers, pedophiles, etc. exist on both sides of the aisle, and one side isnt necessarily better than the other in that regard.

First part yes, there are on both sides of the aisle. But I've never disputed that.

I do dispute that these current batch of liberals are comparable to the unprincipled hypocritical partisan hacks that is known as the GOP and conservative leaders.

That's why I have this thread, to highlight just how insidious and widespread their awfulness is. You don't like it, and I can respect that, but it doesn't make me wrong in the slightest.

Mind you, thats not an excuse of hypocrites and their behavior, simply a factual point about human behavior. Bad people/hypocrites exist in every demograph, no matter how moral or ethical they may claim to be.

You are basically arguing, if someone were to say men commit more rape than women, because some women have been guilty of rape, that both sides do it, and so therefore the point about men committing rape is a moot point.

Different topic, and I'm not saying that's your position, but the premise behind your argument is the same, and it is beyond disingenuous. It is that "gray" fallacy that your other friend was talking about in that other thread.

You say that because some liberals are hypocrites, I have no right to slam the GOP and conservatives on their widespread hypocrisy, and that is a losing argument, because I have every right to do so.

Hypocrites exist. Thats a fact, but its not necessarily a condemnation of either conservative values or liberal values. Its just a fact of human nature.

*facepalm*

I shall say it again, for the record: The premise of this thread is that there is widespread hypocrisy among conservatives, who more than ever before, I see betraying their conservative values, or espousing values which are inherently internally inconsistent.

Before you continue, read, absorb, and understand that.

I dont deny they did it. But I do deny its relevance as regards the whole. Like I said, your better at spotting the needles in the haystack than seeing the condition of the hay itself.

You can deny the relevance all you want, because how you gauge relevance is irrelevant. You cannot dispute what I'm saying, you just don't like that I'm saying it.

Are there hypocrits? Of course there are. I dont deny that. But I do deny that the acts of those so few people indicate what 'conservative values' are by your interpretation.

I offered to continue posting links, so you can see how inaccurate the "so few" part of your statement is. If you want I can keep doing so, but it won't make one bit of difference to you, and that's fine. But it is disingenuous.

Rofl. Try reading the OP title as well as the OP. The way I read the OP is it is indeed a blanket smearing of what you think conservative values are. Thats my opinion at least. Ymmv.

I can explain it a dozen times to you, and you seem to intentionally not get it. But that's okay, because I don't have to get you to agree with me in order to make my points.

I've done the honestly explaining to you part, where there is no more room for misinterpretation. If you can't keep up after that point, that's your problem, not mine.

Rofl. An utterly predictable claim by you. Never woulda saw that coming.

Given the way you debate, or should I say dodge, it never would have turned out any other way.

Again, predictable. At least you dont disappoint in that regard.

I'm sorry I can't say the same for your rebuttals, which were quite disappointing and lacking in substance.

 

[MobBoss]

Oh no, the thread title is absolutely perfect. It's like when Fox News does that thing where they don't actually slander someone, because they phrase it in the form of a question, then they claim they are just "asking questions".

Ah...so in your mind it makes sense to rise to the level of that which you despise. Nice.

Haven't shown where the premise is wrong yet.

I disagree.

I know full well your posts are simply to get people who already agree with you to nod their heads. That's probably why you're disengaging.

No. When one wrestles with pigs, one cant help but get muddy. I dont really desire to get muddy. Like you pointed out, we arent going to agree on even the purported 'facts' here, if you are willing to consider something like a male prostitutes allegation as fact with no further corroboration, then we have nothing to really discuss.

You don't accept the county GOP rep, and that's fine, whatever standards you want to hold are your business. But it wasn't just county GOP reps, and it wasn't just one of them.

But its still an incredibly small percentage of the whole. Again, needles and haystacks.

You are basically arguing, if someone were to say men commit more rape than women, because some women have been guilty of rape, that both sides do it, and so therefore the point about men committing rape is a moot point.

Rape is terrible whoever does it.

However, the misdeeds of politicians of both sides of the aisle is very well known, and isnt really in any way analogous to rape stats of men or women.

You say that because some liberals are hypocrites, I have no right to slam the GOP and conservatives on their widespread hypocrisy, and that is a losing argument, because I have every right to do so.

No. Quite simply my point is their hypocrisy isnt as widespread as you allege, nor do the people you mention really serve as 'leaders' of the GOP or the even more larger group of conservatives in general.

I shall say it again, for the record: The premise of this thread is that there is widespread hypocrisy among conservatives, who more than ever before, I see betraying their conservative values, or espousing values which are inherently internally inconsistent.

I disagree. You have shown some individuals to have been that...but not conservatives in general. And when you say conservatives you mention them as a whole...and thats where the broad ad hom occurs.

Before you continue, read, absorb, and understand that.

You may want to try and cut back on the condescending attitude.

You can deny the relevance all you want, because how you gauge relevance is irrelevant. You cannot dispute what I'm saying, you just don't like that I'm saying it.

I have disputed it, and I dont like what you are saying because a very large chunk of it is totally false on its face.

I offered to continue posting links, so you can see how inaccurate the "so few" part of your statement is. If you want I can keep doing so, but it won't make one bit of difference to you, and that's fine. But it is disingenuous.

Unless your prepared to post 10s of thousands of links (which your not and cant provide anyway) your not going to counter my point that this isnt as widespread as you allege.

I'm sorry I can't say the same for your rebuttals, which were quite disappointing and lacking in substance.

Right. Thats why you have spent so much time rebutting them unsuccessfully.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I read askthepizzaguys tl;dr post.

Here's a brief summary:

Spoiler :

LOL PWND

 

[aneeshm]

Family values social and cultural Conservative:

<snip>

Must you build your straw-men of such titanic proportions?

 

[Phrossack]

It's not a strawman if it's real. Dare I say those people and their actions he mentioned are rather real.

 

[MobBoss]

It's not a strawman if it's real. Dare I say those people and their actions he mentioned are rather real.

I think he was referring to the application of those individuals behavior as 'conservative values' in general. Contrary to popular belief, there are indeed conservatives that arent hypocrites and walk the talk.

 

[Mark1031]

Thanks to askthepizzaguy for doing what I have never had the patience to do.

 

[JollyRoger]

Contrary to popular belief, there are indeed conservatives that arent hypocrites and walk the talk.

Yep, they're called Blue Dogs.

 

[Bei1052]

Great post, mate. Note how no conservatives here actually refute any of these claims.

I speak for myself, but like hell I care enough to go through that entire list point-by-point.