Constitutional Article Discussion: Article G

[Sir Donald III]

This is a Proposed Poll for the addition of a Section to the Code of Laws. Please review the legislation carefully before voting:

CoL Section # Deputies
1. For all positions using deputies, a deputy must be
selected in the following manner: If the election was
not contested, any citizen may be appointed. If the
election was contested, the deputy position must be
offered to the runner-up in the election. Should that
citizen decline, the office holder may seek any citizen
for the position. If there is a tie for runner-up, the
deputy may be chosen from all those citizens that
are tied. However, all of the tied citizens must decline
before any other citizen may be appointed deputy for
that office.

Please Vote:
YES, I apporve the Article as written
NO, I do not approve
ABSTAIN, I have no opinion

This poll will be open for 96 hours, and is Subject to Section I (1) of the Code of Laws.

 

[Sir Donald III]

This is a Proposed Poll for the addition of a Section to the Code of Laws pertaining to Confirmation Polls. Read the legislation carefully before Voting.

CoL Section # Confirmation Polls
1. Confirmation polls are used to challenge the appoinement
of a citizen to an elected office. Any citizen may
create a confirmation poll, should one not already exist.
This poll must be created within 24 hours of the
appointment, and ask the question "Do you approve of the
appointment of <citizen name> to the office of <office
name>?", with Yes, No and Abstain option. This poll is
to be private, as it is a form of an election. The poll
will run for 2 days. At the end of the time, if a
majority of the citizens vote "No", the appointment is
overturned. Any other result approves the appointment.

Please Vote:
YES, I apporve the Article as written
NO, I do not approve
ABSTAIN, I have no opinion

This poll will be open for 96 hours, and is Subject to Section I (1) of the Code of Laws.

 

[Sir Donald III]

I didn't go ahead with the "Vacancies" Code because I wanted to toss up a suggestion.

For the Justices, perhaps not having ruled on (or even commented on) a Judicial Review/Citizen's Complaint within 7 days would be the equivalent ot 2 Turnchats. So long as they comment on any JR/CC during that time, they are still "Present".

And if there are no new JR/CCs within a 7 day period, that won't count against them.

So, how do we write this "Second Section" to CoL "2"?

 

[Cyc]

Just a note. These CoL Amendments should be labeled CoL G ~ Leadership Positions (or some comparable title). So far:

the Amendment about Deputies would be labeled G.1
the Amendment about Vacancies would be labeled G.2
the Amendment about Confirmation Polls would be G.3

This numbering would basically match the appropriate sections of Article G. Speaking of which, I would think Article G would need to be ratified before the CoL amendments were. Anyway, this numbering system would give us a working format that would allow change in the future.

 

[Sir Donald III]

I thoiught that the CoL section pertaining to ammending the Code of Laws was labled "I" to mean Roman for 1, meaning the next number would be II. Your method still works with the 1 we have, except it should now be labled I-1 or I:1

 

[Cyc]

No, "CoL I ~ Amending the Code of Laws" is Law "I", as in the letter I. It coresponds with Article I of the Constitution. Laws in the CoL should be Lettered to the Article they are linked to, as much as possible. It's not neccessary to match exactly, but an attempt should be made for easy reference.

 

[Sir Donald III]

After consultations with the Chief Justice, I have modified Section 3 to allow for cases where 2 Justices are found in "Absentia" at the same time. Striken statements are in itallics, while added statements are bolded.

Article G
1. All elected positions shall have a fixed term of one
month. Each position will be granted to the candidate
receiving the largest number of votes in that election.
In the event of a tie between two or more front
runners, a runoff poll shall be opened between those
candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days, and be
repeated as often as needed to resolve the tie.

2. All Exexutive and Legislative positions shall have a
deputy. The Deputy will be permitted to conduct the
affairs of the office as directed, or during a planned
absence of the elected official. If no instructions have
been posted for an office within 12 hours of the upcomming
Turn Chat, the deputy for that office may post the official
instructions for the office.

3. The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an
absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the
Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if
absent) and confirmed by the remaining justices and the
President and the remaining justice if not also absent. If
both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent,
the Public Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats,
with Presidential approval.

4. The President will appoint a citizen to any vacant
office. If a deputy exists for that office, the
President must appoint that citizen. This appointment
may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting
a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

The last sentence in Section 3 merely completes the line of succession, that is if both the CJ and the JA are absent, the PD is next up.

I guess we should restart the clock to discuss cases of absenses of 2 or all 3 Justices at the same time...

 

[Cyc]

Actually, in the original intent for the creation of the Judiciary, the PD followed the CJ and was followed by the JA. But that doesn't really matter. In my court they would both be equally valuable.

How about this? Is it too complicated for what we need?

and the remaining justice if not also absent. If
both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate (or Public Defender) are absent,
the remaining Justice may appoint pro-tems to the other seats,
with Presidential approval.

 

[Cyc]

Another thing I wanted to point out was the wording of Article G.4 doesn't really mesh with the wording in G.3.

3. The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an
absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the
Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if
absent) and confirmed by the remaining justice if not also absent. If
both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent,
the Public Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats,
with Presidential approval.


4. The President will appoint a citizen to any vacant
office. If a deputy exists for that office, the
President must appoint that citizen. This appointment
may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting
a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

If you feel there is no conflict, then don't worry about it. I'm just used to people finding little inconsistancies and playing them out.

 

[Sir Donald III]

First message: The way I see it, the retained portions of Section 3 imply that the CoC is CJ first, then JA, implying that PD is last. So, if the CJ is the only absentee, then the JA appoints and the Pres & PD approve. If the JA's the only absentee, then the CJ appoints and the Pres & PD approve. If both are absent, the only guy left to appoint pro-tems is the PD.

Second Message: Yeah, I sometimes see these little logic loops too... didn't see that one. Perhaps:

4. The President will appoint a citizen to any vacant Executive or Legislative office, or to the Judiciary if all three Judicial Positions are declared "Vacant".

And now, we run into circular logic again... I mean if all 3 Jurists are absent for more than 7 days, then who is there to call them "absent"?

 

[Cyc]

First message: The way I see it, the retained portions of Section 3 imply that the CoC is CJ first, then JA, implying that PD is last. So, if the CJ is the only absentee, then the JA appoints and the Pres & PD approve. If the JA's the only absentee, then the CJ appoints and the Pres & PD approve. If both are absent, the only guy left to appoint pro-tems is the PD.

Yes, ty. I understood what you were saying, but as you mentioned below a small logic loop existsed in the Section 3 wording that could be exploited. If the situation arose where the CJ and PD were absent, according to Section 3, the JA would appoint a CJ and not be confirmed by the remaining Justice because he too would be absent. It then does not say the President will also confirm. That is only mentioned if the CJ and the JA are absent. That's why I suggested the wording I did.

Second Message: Yeah, I sometimes see these little logic loops too... didn't see that one. Perhaps:

4. The President will appoint a citizen to any vacant Executive or Legislative office, or to the Judiciary if all three Judicial Positions are declared "Vacant".

And now, we run into circular logic again... I mean if all 3 Jurists are absent for more than 7 days, then who is there to call them "absent"?

First of all, your last question should be "If all three Justices are absent (using either of the parameters listed), then who is there to call the positions vacant?" I believe the answer to that would be "only the President". The President would then appoint a Chief Justice, who would assume control of the Court, according to the rules.

In regards to the wording of 4., if a Justice were absent (according to either parameter listed) then the appropriate Justice would declare the position "vacant" and appoint a pro tem. (Speaking of parameters, what happened to the parameters mentioned by Ravensfire? Something like 3 days without responding to a CC or 7 days without responding to a JR? I'll have to check my PMs.) So, my question was, if the CJ (or whichever Justice) declared the positon vacant, would the President then be eligible to appoint the pro tem?

Your rewording covers the problem I stated, but should read that the President only appoints the CJ, who would assume control of the Court, according to the rules. Damn, I talk a lot...

EDIT: You metioned the parameters in post #103, but I thought that Ravensfire had do so too.

 

[Cyc]

Ravensfire is currently banned , therefore we have been communicating via PM. He has resent the parameters, which I have posted below, with additional comments:

 3. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for three days, 
the remaining Justices may declare the Justice Absent. If a Justice has not
 posted on any active Judicial matter for seven days, the remaining Justices
 may declare the office Vacant. 

Section 1 covers the planned absences, 2 is Exec/Legis vacancies, 3 is the
 Judicial absence/vacancies.

1 more day of PM madness ...

-- Ravensfire
 



Thank you. This is what I was looking for. The question is about the 
difference between an absence and a vacancy in the Judiciary. An absence
 is called after 3 days allowing a protem to be appointed? An absence of 7
 days allows a permanent replacement? Is that the difference in the two? 
And if the Office is vacant, the CJ appoints, not the Prez. 

Cyc 



Exactly right. The pro-tem is to keep the wheels of justice moving in a 
timely manner. Hopefully a 3 day delay isn't considered excessive by most. 
The 7 day period allows for the real-life issues that always seem to crop up.
After 7 days, it's time to find a permanent replacement for the justice.

You're also right about the Prez appointing to fill a Vacancy. Like all
 vacancies, it's his call, usual confirmation poll stuff applies. There 
isn't a seperate section for Judicial Vacancies because they are 
treated the same as all other elected positions.

Getting close to nailing this down!

-- Ravensfire

Ravensfire feels like the President should appoint in a vacancy in all instances. This may well be the way to go. I personally like the means used for the protem appointment, but Ravensfire's way keeps us consistant throughout the governmental offices.

 

[ravensfire]

I'm back!

I like the idea of the President always filling Vacancies - it's simple and consistent. If a poor candidate is appointed, the remaining members of the Judiciary can always post a cofirmation poll, and lobby against the candidate.

The pro-tem is for planned absences and for unplanned, short-term absences on the bench. I'll post the full proposed poll with the last version of the text Cyc, Sir Donald II and I have been discussing in a following post.

Summary of changes in posts below:
* Article G.2 - modified time for deputies to post to 24 hours
* Section G.3.C - modified to handle all members of Judiciary absent

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

This is a Proposed Poll for the addition of an Article to the Constitution. Please review the legislation carefully before voting:

 Article G
1. All elected positions shall have a fixed term of one
month. Each position will be granted to the candidate
receiving the largest number of votes in that election.
In the event of a tie between two or more front
runners, a runoff poll shall be opened between those
candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days, and be
repeated as often as needed to resolve the tie.

2. All Exexutive and Legislative positions shall have a
deputy. The Deputy will be permitted to conduct the
affairs of the office as directed, or during a planned
Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have
been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming
Turn Chat, the deputy for that office may post the official
instructions for the office.

3. The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an
Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the
Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if
absent) and confirmed by the President and the 
remaining justice if not also absent. If both the Chief 
Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public 
Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats,
with Presidential approval.

4. The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant
office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President 
must appoint that citizen. This appointment may be 
challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a 
confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

Please Vote:
YES, I approve the Article as written
NO, I do not approve
ABSTAIN, I have no opinion

This poll will be open for 96 hours, and is Subject to Article I of the Constitution.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

This is a Proposed Poll for the addition of a Section to the Code of Laws. Please review the legislation carefully before voting:

CoL G.1 - Deputies
A. For all positions using deputies, a deputy must be
selected in the following manner: If the election was
not contested, any citizen may be appointed. If the
election was contested, the deputy position must be
offered to the runner-up in the election. Should that
citizen decline, the office holder may seek any citizen
for the position. If there is a tie for runner-up, the
deputy may be chosen from all those citizens that
are tied. However, all of the tied citizens must decline
before any other citizen may be appointed deputy for
that office.

Please Vote:
YES, I approve the Article as written
NO, I do not approve
ABSTAIN, I have no opinion

This poll will be open for 96 hours, and is Subject to Section I (1) of the Code of Laws.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

This is a Proposed Poll for the addition of a Section to the Code of Laws. Please review the legislation carefully before voting:

CoL G.2 - Confirmation Polls
A. Confirmation polls are used to challenge the appoinement
of a citizen to an elected office. Any citizen may
create a confirmation poll, should one not already exist.
This poll must be created within 24 hours of the
appointment, and ask the question "Do you approve of the
appointment of <citizen name> to the office of <office
name>?", with Yes, No and Abstain option. This poll is
to be private, as it is a form of an election. The poll
will run for 2 days. At the end of the time, if a
majority of the citizens vote "No", the appointment is
overturned. Any other result approves the appointment.

Please Vote:
YES, I approve the Article as written
NO, I do not approve
ABSTAIN, I have no opinion

This poll will be open for 96 hours, and is Subject to Section I (1) of the Code of Laws.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

This is a Proposed Poll for the addition of a Section to the Code of Laws. Please review the legislation carefully before voting:

CoL G.3 - Vacancies
A. An official or Justice may declare themselves to be 
Absent for a period of time. During this time, the deputy 
or pro-tem will act with all power and duties of that office, 
surrendering them to the official or Justice when they 
return or at the end of the planned absence, whichever 
comes first.

B. Should an official fail to post instructions for 2
consecutive turn chats without prior notice, the 
Judiciary may declare that office Vacant.

C. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial 
matter for three days, the remaining Justices may declare 
the Justice Absent. If a Justice has not posted on any 
active Judicial matter for seven days, the remaining 
Justices may declare the office Vacant.  If all three
Justices fail to post on any active Judicial matter for
7 days, the President may declare all Judicial offices
Vacant, and immediately appoint a Chief Justice.

Please Vote:
YES, I apporve the Article as written
NO, I do not approve
ABSTAIN, I have no opinion

This poll will be open for 96 hours, and is Subject to Section I (1) of the Code of Laws.

-- Ravensfire

 

[DaveShack]

The last 3 proposed polls should say Code of Laws instead of Constitution. This is not a substantial change and should not reset the 24 hour window for citizen comment.

 

[ravensfire]

The last 3 proposed polls should say Code of Laws instead of Constitution. This is not a substantial change and should not reset the 24 hour window for citizen comment.

DOH!

I have edited the above as DS noted.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

No problemo. As I said to SD3, cosmetic changes are not a big deal to the Court. You didn't make changes to the content of the Lesgilation, so I see no real problem timestamp-wise.