Controversial Proposition -- Remove Judaism

[mccp77]

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if this has already been discussed but after playing through several times I'm not sure what Judaism is adding to gameplay. Has the idea of removing Judaism ever been considered? It just seems to muddy the waters to me, and given how few Jews existed throughout history it just doesn't seem to make sense to include it alongside so many of the great (in terms of number of followers at one time or another) religions of the world.

Sorry, if I ruffle any feathers. I don't mean to offend anybody.

 

[Alexius08]

Actually, Judaism didn't exist in DoC until recently, and converting to it is currently enabled only for the civ controlling the Jewish holy city. Seeing that none of the playable civs ever adopted it as the state religion, removing it again won't introduce massive changes to gameplay (unless you're playing a civ with UHVs that call for controlling holy cities, shrines, etc.)

 

[mccp77]

Actually, Judaism didn't exist in DoC until recently, and converting to it is currently enabled only for the civ controlling the Jewish holy city. Seeing that none of the playable civs ever adopted it as the state religion, removing it again won't introduce massive changes to gameplay (unless you're playing a civ with UHVs that call for controlling holy cities, shrines, etc.)

thanks, my bad. thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Tigranes]

thanks, my bad. thanks for clearing that up for me.

There was nothing "bad" in anything you said, everything is correct. Before, Judaism was represented by Temple of Solomon Wonder and I believe that was a good balance. Because now any civ can theoretically even win Religious Victory with Judaism, which is too much. But as far as I understand Leoreth's intentions -- we are yet to see an introduction of a new concept: non-pagan minor religions. So we will see how this will be handled in the future.

 

[Ecthy]

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

But Leoreth literally just added it (well some months ago but still)! Poor fella can just never please anyone.

 

[Ecthy]

While we're at it, must we have Taoism as a standalone religion? Oh, wait, noone could be so edgy as to suggest to remove it and still call themselves "controversial".... my bad...

 

[Alexius08]

While we're at it, must we have Taoism as a standalone religion? Oh, wait, noone could be so edgy as to suggest to remove it and still call themselves "controversial".... my bad...

Not sure which RFC modmod has removed either Taoism or Confucianism, but it has been done before. That was from the time before modders figured out how to increase the amount of religions that can be represented.

 

[Nyayr]

Historically seen Judaism had a big impact in the bronze/iron age, on the region of the middle east, arab penisula (sheba), egypt and even up to ethiopia and some more regions, not to mention the latter affect of christianity and Islam, which not likely developed if it wasn't for it. It doesn't reflect that though as it doesn't spread, properly in the area, there were many settlements over the mediterranean.

Later it was common in the arab world, Moors for example had good relations with them, the jews actually backed the moors against the spnish for good reasons. However for example in the middle ages it pops up in england (which it does in scenario some times) and not sure but it should also in Amsterdam 16th century (I'm dutch know we had a big jewish population here, with the repressive behaviour of Spain & Portugal on Jews, similar as the protestants moved from France. Poland, Germany (generally east europe as well) had relatively big population before well... WW2... When it dwindled extremely and survivors left for Israel later on.

A more smart thing would be that the religion has reduced negatives with other religion based on it. "Orthordoxy, christianity, protestantism, Islam (Islam was pretty tolerant back for the the middle ages standards, there been a lot Jewish scholars even in that time.)" As they generally stuck to their selves and caused little issues with the state religions of the region they lived in.

Just saying since we can have plenty religions, it might as well expand more so it reflex historical accuracy.

 

[ales_]

Not sure which RFC modmod has removed either Taoism or Confucianism, but it has been done before. That was from the time before modders figured out how to increase the amount of religions that can be represented.

Yes, that was a good mod. It was called... RFC Dawn of Civilization 1.0. It removed Confucianism.

 

[mccp77]

Historically seen Judaism had a big impact in the bronze/iron age, on the region of the middle east, arab penisula (sheba), egypt and even up to ethiopia and some more regions, not to mention the latter affect of christianity and Islam, which not likely developed if it wasn't for it. It doesn't reflect that though as it doesn't spread, properly in the area, there were many settlements over the mediterranean.

Later it was common in the arab world, Moors for example had good relations with them, the jews actually backed the moors against the spnish for good reasons. However for example in the middle ages it pops up in england (which it does in scenario some times) and not sure but it should also in Amsterdam 16th century (I'm dutch know we had a big jewish population here, with the repressive behaviour of Spain & Portugal on Jews, similar as the protestants moved from France. Poland, Germany (generally east europe as well) had relatively big population before well... WW2... When it dwindled extremely and survivors left for Israel later on.

A more smart thing would be that the religion has reduced negatives with other religion based on it. "Orthordoxy, christianity, protestantism, Islam (Islam was pretty tolerant back for the the middle ages standards, there been a lot Jewish scholars even in that time.)" As they generally stuck to their selves and caused little issues with the state religions of the region they lived in.

Just saying since we can have plenty religions, it might as well expand more so it reflex historical accuracy.

I'd support more religious expansion for sure. I just think other minor religions with as many followers as Judaism like Jainism and Sikhism should also be represented then. There just doesn't seem like there's much consistency if you're just adding Judaism despite it having relatively few followers.

All that said, I feel like I've unleashed a genie from a bottle on accident by starting this thread. Any chance anybody knows how I can delete it?

 

[Leoreth]

The discussion in this thread is valuable so I don't think it should be deleted.

On the topic of Judaism itself, it's not completely pointless even disregarding historical representation. The initial spread of Judaism plays a big role in how early Christianity (i.e. Orthodoxy) spreads, for example.

 

[Nyayr]

Judaism has spread considerably over europe and northern africa, not to mention the USA as well. The religion would need a few tweaks, of being able to coexist better with other religions.

For a secondary thought on more religions, an idea might be to split Islam in Sunni and Shia, which was a schism, but that a differ matter.

 

[Malchar]

If any change to religions is warranted, then it should be the addition of the Islam schism and more "minor" religions like Sikhism.

It's quite possible to play the game while completely ignoring religion. I have never found it to be intrusive. If people choose to play with religions, then it would be fun to have more depth available.

 

[mccp77]

If any change to religions is warranted, then it should be the addition of the Islam schism and more "minor" religions like Sikhism.

It's quite possible to play the game while completely ignoring religion. I have never found it to be intrusive. If people choose to play with religions, then it would be fun to have more depth available.

the islamic schism idea really makes it difficult to put the genie back into the bottle. There's no brightline for a limit. Do we also then need to have Buddhism split? How do we model the Ibadi denomination without Oman being in the game? I think Christianity was split more for gameplay reasons than anything. I don't think having Iran be shiite, Oman added as Ibadi, and everything else be Sunni adds anything that isn't already in the game. And then, Buddhism really doesn't need to be split.

 

[Ecthy]

All that said, I feel like I've unleashed a genie from a bottle on accident by starting this thread. Any chance anybody knows how I can delete it?

I'm quite familiar with this kind of rhetoric. I'll keep an eye on you, pal.

 

[Malchar]

We can just add things one at a time. No need to do it all at once. I think an Islam split would add a lot of interesting gameplay when people play Arabia. For Oman, we might have to wait until we are able to add more civs to the game to make that worthwhile.

 

[star15389]

The small number of significant Shi'ite states (Fatimids and Safavids/Qajar are basically it, right?) seems like an argument against splitting Islam

 

[Nyayr]

It as a pretty significant split and even till today they can barely coexisted together so big is the rift of Sunni and Shi'ite. So it does have a valid point. Iran is a pretty big country and mostly of Iraq is Shii'ite as well, some tiny countries (baghrein if correct) on the east coast of the arab peninsula, as well some got a large % (yemen). Issue is the split happened soon after mohammed died... Though for gameplay reason, maybe it shouldn't happen so soon, as Iran only appears around 1500.

I just red up and the spread of Shia in Iran happened in the cultural and national awareness of the country between 1500-1800. Including Azerbaijan around that time. so might appear with the arrival of Iran that it starts spreading over some cities there in the region and perhaps even replace Islam, similar as if you embraced protestantism it mostly removes christianity. This also removes issues islam natiosn would have before 1500 and also makes Iran the oddball in the islam world. Might mean they need to start with more troops at start.

https://thesinosaudiblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/mid-east-religion.jpg Shows it is a pretty spread religion today.

(A tiny question, the buddhism spread to 40% for the Tibet Civ, anyone ever made that??? Sounds like Tibet needs to conquer all of asia and the middle east!). This makes me also question the Arab goal of % islam in the world those goals almost impossible to do without going insanely beyond your borders.

 

[star15389]

China alone is about a quarter of the world population if played right, so you can get Buddhism above 30% by starting as them and not founding Confucianism or Taoism. Makes the GProphet condition much harder though