Controversy : Kris Swordsman

[hentrueblue]

As an Indonesian myself I don't have any probs with the Kris Swordsman, Firaxis wants every unique units to be closely associated with their civ, and Kris is very popular within the community, so....

 

[ImperialChaos]

Do you realise that there are a lot of people who still dislike the inclusion of El Dorado and the Fountain of Youth? For example, I'm perfectly happy with the idea of the Kris and their 'mystical' (but not magical) abilities, but I strongly dislike the two natural wonders.

Of course. The point I was trying to make is that something mythical is not without precedence in Civ V.

 

[Syailendra]

Well, there is no conflicting information here. In fact, there's strong information that they were used in battle even if just a secondary weapon (even then, there's indication that, under some circumstances, they were a primary weapon). They were not just a symbol of royal authority. So a scepter isn't comparable.



Were there no written records? Even if not home-grown records, written records by outsiders, who were able to rely on oral traditions that are closer in history to the point we're talking about, are a possible source.

Regardless of whether someone believes that a Kris was used in battle, you would have to agree that the evidence is conflicting. I don't think it's unreasonable to take a side on conflicting information for the purposes of the game. To go back to Elephants. No one knows for certain which kind of Elephant Carthage used. The better evidence, imo, is that they used a now extinct African Forest Elephant. However, it's entirely possible (although unlikely) that they used Bush Elephants or even imported Indian Elephants.

Seancolorado has posted information suggesting their use in battle - even sometimes as a primary weapon. I don't think Firaxis is wrong for relying on that information when choosing to use it in the game. Not only did they rely on that information, I think they correctly determined that the Kris was important to the culture of Indonesia, which is why they wanted it in the game.

as far as i know, kris is used at duels. Battlewise, its more like a last resort, every officers have it of course. And what bothers me alot is that IF there is only one regiment that have krises at their belt, then it will the bhayangkara,the name that echoes through the present day. It will be easier to induce kris ideas in them than creating an imaginary regiment called 'kris swordsman'.
But, you sum it up well i guess. Got to go to job at the moment, nice discussion guys!

 

[Irkalla]

What's with Brazil's inclusion? It makes much more sense than half of the civs in game so far. Not to mention that we're talking of the second world power the western hemisphere has seen...

Third. I think you forgot about the Haitian Empire.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

Third. I think you forgot about the Haitian Empire.

I think you spelt Canada wrong.

 

[Raiki]

I think you spelt Canada wrong.

Please, Canada is just America's hat.

http://satwcomic.com/awesome-hats

~R~

 

[Murrica]

There is controversy with the Kris? I would have thought the controversy would be its random unique upgrade. Seriously, more randomness added to the game? I can't be the only one.

 

[Novu]

Well, it doesn't seem to have mystical powers in the game either. It just inspires the owner to act in a certain way (e.g., heroically), but there's nothing odd about someone who believes his weapon has mystical powers acting more confidently. It's just a placebo effect.

This actually happened a lot throughout history. Moral and confidence is not just a placebo effect as it has a real affect on combat. Motivated troops simply fight harder than purposeless unmotivated troops. It is not just magic swords either. Persia called its military the Immortals. Every major conqueror had some type of military propaganda going for them that inspired their troops to victory.

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

Please, Canada is just America's hat.

http://satwcomic.com/awesome-hats

~R~

Actually, 'murica is Canada's pants.

 

[mike1117112]

Once I got used to my units magically turning into boats when they came across some water, the rest of it wasn't so bad. I don't mind El Dorado, or Fountain of Youth so much. I wished they showed more often. I use Natural Wonders as strategic points of control on the map. Many a pixel in my game were slaughtered for control of Mt. Sinai, to own El Dorado, many swords and rifles have clashed over FOY. I don't see that as much of a stretch from real human history. Lore and Legend, Myth and Mythology is a huge part of civilization's story. As such, I like it in the game.
I like the kriss idea, uniquely Indonesian. I wasn't that interested in playing them, but they might now be one of the first I try. Sounds different. Different is good, within reason.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

I don't find that a fair comparison. They don't magically sprout boats from their bums, they make a floatilla able to ferry them over water. I think that is fair to say one could build a floatilla within a timeframe of 1 turn, even when not in a densely forrested area.

 

[jye42]

I tend to think that the Civilization series is a semi-historical game. I would not call it historical and as such a few slightly mystical elements are right at home. If you want a historical game I recommend; Europa Universalis, Crusader Kings, Victoria, Hearts of Iron or The Total War games. Don't get me wrong I love Civ and iv'e played more Civ than any of these games (Except Europa 3) but if you want a historical experience, if that is your aim than there is better choices.

 

[adwcta]

As long as they're not actively breaking the laws of physics and shooting fire out of their swords, I don't see a problem with random promotions, or the idea that such promotions are from magic/god/confidence/puppies. Have there been a successful historical army that didn't think they were fated by god(s) to succeed?

It can't all be historically realistic in terms of the #s and power. Otherwise, you'd just see America, Ottoman, Mongols, Japan and a handful of European powers dominate everything. Once you suspend disbelief and think "yes, my 10:1 knights vs enemy keshiks ratio is a victory for me" (part of the entire basis for this game), you pretty much have to buy into everything else military-power-wise the game throws at you. In all seriousness, if you haven't googled the numbers involved in the Mongol invasion of anywhere that wasn't in the middle of jungle/water, do it. In terms of pure my 1 guy is better than X of your guys, you don't see this type of singular domination vs all other armies ever again. It's as if they were the only European power in the 1500s, and the rest of the world were all Native Americans. Simply unfair.

 

[Pedro P]

I tend to think that the Civilization series is a semi-historical game. I would not call it historical and as such a few slightly mystical elements are right at home. If you want a historical game I recommend; Europa Universalis, Crusader Kings, Victoria, Hearts of Iron or The Total War games. Don't get me wrong I love Civ and iv'e played more Civ than any of these games (Except Europa 3) but if you want a historical experience, if that is your aim than there is better choices.

What? You are saying that a game that usually starts with a war between America and Mongolia in 3000 B.C isn't historic? I'm shocked.

But yeah, you said it, Civ is no historical simulator like the Paradox games, its focus is 90% on the gameplay, and a little of historical flavour. Yet people seem to not understand the concept and focus more and more on nitpicking minor/graphical only issues or proposing, ahem, lunatic ideas.

 

[SnowKomodo]

I've been reading old dusty articles that I found in my attic on the kris. Found some interesting stuff. I underlined key words for those who just want to skim:

"The keris is thought to be a phallic symbol and it allegedly contains the soul of its first owner, and may turn on an unworthy heir."

Quotes like this justify the random perks bonus.

"The keris was the personal weapon of the Indonesian...[It] was used to fight duels...and eventually on the battlefield...and proved best for close quarter fighting."

This "primary," "secondary" weapon mumbo-jumbo is absolutely pointless when the greater picture is this: The Kris existed on such an important scale that the 'Kris Swordsman' is merely a representation of all these functions. In Indonesian jungles and hills, the terrain often led to such close-quarter fighting. It might as well have been the primary weapon. (And that's even if we ignore the psychological effects - or if you believe in it, the mystical powers - that literally rallied the soldiers to the point where they were willing to fight in the first place.)

"The keris remained the final argument" [beyond the lance, sword and bow.]

Crucial in final blow situations. Including when they poisoned the tip. Think of it this way: You don't go to war with a right shoe and no left shoe - so why do we try to separate the importance of certain weapons?

"Both had short straight single-edged blades....[then came] the waved, double-bladed....[then came] eleven-bladed proved slow to extract from the wound...[then came] hilt to improve the power of straight thrust...[then came] the 1200s the keris in its present snake-like form."

Basically, the common misconception is that the kris was always its snaky form. There were straight versions, dagger versions, etc etc etc. The forging of the kris is what makes it the kris, not the shape. In other words? It was not only used in the ways we assume but many, many different ways including on the battlefield and including during its straighter forms.

"On Java, an all-iron kris was found under the sealed stupa of the Borobudur."

Just awesome how all the stuff they include for Indonesia in BNW is intertwined. They didn't include a 'blob' civ like India. The only alleged 'blob' aspect is the modern name "Indonesia" (which is hardly a concern since Indonesia is a historical and cultural and geographical extension of Majapahit). [And yes I know, Borobudur is the wonder, not part of the Civ's uniques, but still pretty cool info nonetheless]

"The secrets of how the weapons were forged were jealously guarded in ancient times."

The only weapon in Indonesian history treated with this sacred status in this way.

"The Indonesian forge, with its double piston and two-way valve, was superior to any Western form."

It it easy to stereotype Southeast Asia as just culture and diplomacy: Just like any great empire, a high sophistication of science and technology is required. When you look back at the 'golden ages' they were up there with the very best the world had to offer in one form or another. Same is true of any great empire from any region of the world. The major differences are how they used the technology they held, and how nearby nations competed with them to change what technologies they deemed necessary to come up with in the first place. (E.g. this is why exploration ignited Portugal in a unique way)

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Well... To be fair... Most armies went into battle without shoes. The sensible ones wore boots.

 

[SnowKomodo]

Well... To be fair... Most armies went into battle without shoes. The sensible ones wore boots.

The successful ones wore Nike

 

[Syailendra]

I tend to think that the Civilization series is a semi-historical game. I would not call it historical and as such a few slightly mystical elements are right at home. If you want a historical game I recommend; Europa Universalis, Crusader Kings, Victoria, Hearts of Iron or The Total War games. Don't get me wrong I love Civ and iv'e played more Civ than any of these games (Except Europa 3) but if you want a historical experience, if that is your aim than there is better choices.

i do wonder how this guy will react when australia got in civ, and have a unique aboriginal swordsman.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Though I have a difficult time imagining Australia getting in to begin with, I have an even more difficult time imagining them getting an Aborigine unique. That would be like if they gave the Americans the Mohawk Warrior.

 

[ahawk]

My only issue with the Kris Swordsman is that the promotions aren't chosen, but are randomly selected from a small pool. I'd much rather have the promotions unique to the Kris be promotions I can choose rather than get assigned automatically. After all, let's say I only have 5 Kris get promoted before they upgrade, and that 4 of them got promotions that won't help me for whatever reason. That's a pretty bad UU, then. And the scenario I just described isn't at all unlikely, given that rushing to get sword units has been severely hampered by changes in G&K (though BNW may change this).