Controversy : Kris Swordsman

[Princeofnigeria]

^ To be fair, their main UA is the free harbor thing. The crossing the Alps thing rarely comes up as part of their ability and is probably more harmful than good. Plus, you can't quite say it's unrealistic when it literally happened.



Well that's a mouthful

Can you give me some info on it? A google search only turns up the Javanese wikipedia page, which is obviously unhelpful.



Given that logic, "Kris Swordsman" doesn't even require that they use the Kris in battle, just that they have it with them as something spiritually important to them.



Well, the army did, at one point, fight with Pikes. If the English had a Pikeman replacement that used Pikes, I probably wouldn't be weirded out by that. Likewise, if the Indonesians had a Rifleman replacement that used Krises I would be upset. But a swordsman replacement isn't that.

Okay, why does everyone go back to the 12 century? I specified the pike in 2013. Fine, what if the Aztecs had a sacrificial knife unit? It was culturally relevant, believed to be magic, and was a good 1v1 weapon. Also, because I have a love of the old west, I must say this: a page ago someone brought up the 1911 for a cowboy UU. They are confusing the 1911 with the colt peacemaker, another very long lived gun. Unrelated, but I felt a compulsion to point that out.

 

[Hruberen]

Why no Atlantis Civ? It is not a serious game about history so what is the issue.We could have Dragons appear as a random event too.The X-com units means Aliens should invade too in late game.

Atlantis, as a civ no, for there is no city list or leaders. As a natural wonder yes, as civilizations have searched for it.

Dragons no, as no leader has ever had to deal with a dragon attack

Same with Aliens and as a further reason these shouldn't be included is that we already have barbarians filling up the role these units would take, and it's a competition vs. other AIs and players and not the environment.

Okay, why does everyone go back to the 12 century? I specified the pike in 2013. Fine, what if the aztecs ha a sacrificial knife unit? It was culturally relevant, believed to be magic, and was a good 1v1 weapon. Also, because I have a love of the old west, I must say this: a page ago someone brought up the 1911 for a cowboy UU. They are confusing the 1911 with the colt peacemaker, another very long lived gun. Unrelated, but I felt a compulsion to point that out.

I'd be against it for a couple of reasons:
1. Jaguar makes more sense
2. That aspect of the Aztecs culture is arguably represented by the UA - Sacrificial Captives, as that would be when the knife would be used methinks

I would not be opposed to the magical nature or it being a good 1v1 weapon.

As for the Colt unit, that would not make sense if it was the weapon the unit was using in battle, unless it was a silenced one with a stealth unit, as pistols do not beat Rifles and weren't around the time muskets were invented. AFAIK the Kris Swordsmen do not use the Kris in battle, just like a ceremonial saber for modern day navy.

 

[stealth_nsk]

XCOM project doesn't mean alien invasion, it means preparation for alien invasion. It fits "near future" theme completely.

And, IMHO, units getting bonuses from their beliefs in magical powers are completely ok. Consider Kris Swordsmen as Asian version of Berserkers.

The only single thing which bothers me as too "magical" is the Fountain of Youth.

 

[Chris Hill]

Well that's a mouthful

I have the Google Toolbar in my IE10 and it happily has the ability to translate web sites.

So Bhayangkara means fierce, fabulous or elite royal guard, from Majapahit period.

 

[Chris Hill]

The only single thing which bothers me as too "magical" is the Fountain of Youth.

But that, and El Dorado and King Solomon's Mine, are known to be 'mystical' or imaginary, in the real world, but can be suitable within a scenario.

 

[AessaSH]

... Can you give me some info on it? A google search only turns up the Javanese wikipedia page, which is obviously unhelpful.



...

From here..

Not much is known about Gajah Mada's early life. Some of the first accounts mention his career as commander of the Bhayangkara, an elite guard for Majapahit kings and their family.

When Rakrian Kuti, one of the officials in Majapahit, rebelled against the Majapahit king Jayanegara (ruled 1309–1328) in 1321, Gajah Mada and the then-mahapatih Arya Tadah helped the king and his family to escape the capital city of Trowulan.
Later Gajah Mada aided the king to return to the capital and crush the rebellion. Seven years later, Jayanegara was murdered by Rakrian Tanca, the court physcian, one of Rakrian Kuti's aides.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Well, if you have such a massive problem with the Kris, may i point out a solution? don't buy the game containing them or mod them out.

And again, people equating "I find a particular unit silly and out of place, I wish it wasn't there" to "This whole expansion is ruined and I hate it". Listen, Just because I have a single problem with a single new side does not mean suddenly I'm an egregious heritic, who should have his rights to play civ revolked. I again find it insultingly rude that you tell me to stop playing over one or two disliked features, as I'm sure you have at least one complaint about the game as well. I'm sincerely trying my damndest to not invoke godwin's law here, but your lack of civility and your daft way of thinking is making that rather difficult.

 

[SnowKomodo]

There is zero controversy here. I take my hat off to the design team and they shouldn't second guess their decision for a second.

Here is an article from a Pendekar under the Silat documents:

"You know I never realized how valuable and rare the Keris fighting techniques we have really are until I heard the continued rambling of a poor misinformed Indonesian who continues to rant that Keris fighting was never done...

"Pendekar Jafri said the keris was originally used in much the same manner with small variances of design, in handle and blade angle, due to the fact at one time all of Indonesia was in the Majapahit empire...

"Some modern Javanese may not want to use the keris in a fighting manner due to religious taboos and beliefs that certain ones are a gift and only for special purposes. We agree with that, however some keris had the purpose to defend in battle and it is with those keris that we seek to keep the old ways of using the keris alive so that those techniques will not be lost...

"learn these techniques to keep these old ways alive and fight against those who seem to want to bury them and keep the Keris just a symbol."

Also, Kris techniques from battle were spread far and wide under the Majapahit not just around Indonesia but to other Southeast Asian nations.

The Kris was also crucial as a self-defense weapon in treacherous Indonesian terrain. Even the women who did not battle in the army carried a smaller version where they concealed within their dress.

Basically, the practical implications of above justify the decision to include the UU, particularly when you consider the cultural implications:

The Kris was more important than any other weapon they used because of the spiritual traditions and psychological boost given to the men.

If we continue to place this UU under the puzzle piece criteria of existing UUs, then we undermine what the Kris is truly about. There are so many inconsistencies within civ, it just doesn't make sense to me that we zero in on something like this when there is a greater picture to be had - particularly when now in modern times the Kris is still considered spiritual by many Indonesians and is kept in a sacred place in their house so it doesn't lose its 'powers' so to speak

 

[SnowKomodo]

To take a back seat to the discussion for a second, here is something interesting about the weapon:

In tradition during this time every man had to have:

-Wife
-House
-Horse
-Bird
-Kris

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

^ To be fair, their main UA is the free harbor thing. The crossing the Alps thing rarely comes up as part of their ability and is probably more harmful than good. Plus, you can't quite say it's unrealistic when it literally happened.

Perhaps "realistic" was too vague a word. A more fitting word would be "irrelevant". Basing the UU and part of UA off one historic event just seems odd, especially when they had some much better options. Besides, the Kris was a real weapon carried by a real army, but people will still throw a ruckus over it.

 

[AessaSH]

To take a back seat to the discussion for a second, here is something interesting about the weapon:

In tradition during this time every man had to have:

-Wife
-House
-Horse
-Bird
-Kris

Damn.. I am still far away to become a real MAN..

Btw, nice informations you have there..
Can you tell me where you find it??

 

[SnowKomodo]

Here is some more context for the Kris (Skip to the underline if you are tired of reading so many of my long posts : )

"Some of the most famous renderings of a Keris appear on the bas-reliefs of Borobudur (825 CE) and Prambanan temple (850CE). However from Raffles' (1817) study of the Candi Sukuh that the Keris recognized today came into existence around 1361 AD in the kingdom of Majapahit, East Java.

"In the past, the majority of Keris had straight blades but this became less frequent over time.

"Keris were worn on a daily basis, especially when travelling because it might be needed for self-defense against wild animals or bandits. During wartime it is the weapon of choice together with Keris-edged spear (tombak). During time of peace, people wore Keris as part of ceremonial attire.

"In battle, a fighter might carried more than one Keris, some carried three Keris: his own, one from his father-in-law, and one as a family heirloom. The extra two served as parrying daggers but if none were available, the sheath would serve the same purpose.

"In 16th century, European colonial power introduced firearms into the archipelago that contribute to the decline of Keris' prominence as the weapon of choice in battle. However its spiritual and ceremonial function still continued and celebrated mainly in kratons and istanas (courts) throughout Indonesia

"Another theory suggested that the wavy blade design was meant to inflict severe wound upon victim. During keris stabbing, the wavy blades severes more blood vessels, creating wider wound which caused the victim to easily bleed to death. However in older Javanese tradition it is also common to apply various types of poisons upon keris blade, which can inflict more potent mortality upon battle.

"Throughout the archipelago, Keris is a symbol of heroism, martial prowess, power and authority. As a cultural symbol, the meticulously decorated keris represent refinement, art and beauty, as the pride and prized possession for its owner; however, as a weapon it is associated with violence, death and bloodshed. "


How's that for relevance?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Basing the UU and part of UA off one historic event just seems odd, especially when they had some much better options.

Well, they not only had the better option, they used the better option. Their main option is based on their seafaring prowess and the great harbor at Carthage. It's a throwaway addition that is rarely used in any game.

Regarding the UU, Carthage loved their Elephants. Mostly because they loved Greek things and the diodichi loved their Elephants (specifically, they got the idea from Pyrrhus). The Greek Kingdoms used Indian Elephants which were bigger and stronger than the Forest Elephant, but the same idea prevails. They used Elephants significantly during the First Punic War, especially in Sicily. To say Elephants are just for Hannibal is unfair to Hannibal since he barely used them. All but one died by Lake Trasimene and he only used them again at Zama where he was defeated. The Elephant is a creature of the First Punic War, not the second.

 

[Syailendra]

To take a back seat to the discussion for a second, here is something interesting about the weapon:

In tradition during this time every man had to have:

-Wife
-House
-Horse
-Bird
-Kris

sorry sean, but here's the fact i always found when i've traveled far and wide in indonesia's many islands

1. I only found krises at men with royal blood or some very rich man
2. Almost all of those krises have layers of gold or silver within the blade
3. Many kerises were extremely balanced that they can stand on its sharp tip for a few seconds
4. I never met one man wields kris in my life, while normal vilagers in indonesia usually wields machete.

So...
1. Where did a majority of krises that belongs to normal men goes?
2. Just how expensive those krises at medieval era?
3. Wow, it needs a very deep skill to create one, not to mention how many workhours needs to make one, just how many skillful blacksmiths are there to supply the population?
4. What kind of cultural shock did happens that alter the habit of such many people?

I just can't see any possibility that a long time ago everybody is going anywhere with kris on their belt

fyi, ive gone to more than 10 islands, more than 20 provinces, and more than 1000 villages, i'm a road planner, my job requires me to travel and open access to those inland villages.
So please don't judge me misinformed

 

[Princeofnigeria]

It isn't "puzzle piece" however, it is a simple 2 checkbox system. 1. Did this military unit exist, Y/N. 2. Are they known outside their place of Origin, Y/N. It could not be much easier to get in, as your UU doesn't have to be primarily associated with the country that used it (Norweigan ski infantry), doesn't have to have fought many major battles (Mehal sefari), doesn't have to have been more skilled compared to their rivals (Minutemen), and doesn't have to have been used in the nations most well known time period (atlatlist) just the two checkboxes. If you can only get one of these checkboxes filled, then I'm sorry, but we don't have a unique. I sympathise with the design team on many issues, trying to fit entire countries into only a few sentences is damn near impossible, and I have applauded their work thus far. Here however I believe they have made a misstep.

 

[poom3619]

Opinion : I actually like the inclusion of Kris Swordsman. Apparently the dev can't think of a single bonus for all KS and instead make several for it. They could be far less "controversial" if they just make KS = Swordsman + "Ambition" promotion.

I once saw a comic with people killing with Kris (with magic included), One of them is stuck it on enemy's gut, twist it and pull out along with victim's intestine so I guess Kris is at least, usable as weapon.

I would welcome it in the same level of Zulu's Impi, unless KS can actually shoot lightning. (Ironically said by who against it)

And again, people (Blahblahblah).

You need to have some kind of anger management, my friend.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Opinion : I actually like the inclusion of Kris Swordsman. Apparently the dev can't think of a single bonus for all KS and instead make several for it. They could be far less "controversial" if they just make KS = Swordsman + "Ambition" promotion.

I once saw a comic with people killing with Kris (with magic included), One of them is stuck it on enemy's gut, twist it and pull out along with victim's intestine so I guess Kris is at least, usable as weapon.

I would welcome it in the same level of Zulu's Impi, unless KS can actually shoot lightning. (Ironically said by who against it)



You need to have some kind of anger management, my friend.

First, if comics equated to real life, then there would be a lot more kids hanging around nuclear power plants, war would be a fun activity and not a horrible waste of life, and transformers would be real. Second, don't alter my quotes like that, please. Third i find it puzzling that I need anger management when I'm the one being told to stop playing the game over a simple disageement of content. I never went into all caps, never used an exclamation point, never used a naughty word, never accused someone of idiocy, and never brought up anger. I am upset at someones actions, and politely asked him to stop. I don't see how that equates to anger.

 

[Geppenguin]

sorry sean, but here's the fact i always found when i've traveled far and wide in indonesia's many islands

1. I only found krises at men with royal blood or some very rich man
2. Almost all of those krises have layers of gold or silver within the blade
3. Many kerises were extremely balanced that they can stand on its sharp tip for a few seconds
4. I never met one man wields kris in my life, while normal vilagers in indonesia usually wields machete.

So...
1. Where did a majority of krises that belongs to normal men goes?
2. Just how expensive those krises at medieval era?
3. Wow, it needs a very deep skill to create one, not to mention how many workhours needs to make one, just how many skillful blacksmiths are there to supply the population?
4. What kind of cultural shock did happens that alter the habit of such many people?

I just can't see any possibility that a long time ago everybody is going anywhere with kris on their belt

fyi, ive gone to more than 10 islands, more than 20 provinces, and more than 1000 villages, i'm a road planner, my job requires me to travel and open access to those inland villages.
So please don't judge me misinformed

Just as you rarely see people with swords nowadays, so krises are mainly kept as heirlooms and works of art. Traditional blacksmiths are now rare fir obvious reasons, and using the rarity of krises now to dispute their commonality then is like saying that swords were never common because only the rich or distinguished officers have them today.

The Kris remains relevant even in today's world as a symbol despite its rarity. Years ago, a storm was raised over the waving of a keris by a Malaysian politician at a rally, leading to accusations of Malay supremacy being espoused

 

[Syailendra]

Just as you rarely see people with swords nowadays, so krises are mainly kept as heirlooms and works of art. Traditional blacksmiths are now rare fir obvious reasons, and using the rarity of krises now to dispute their commonality then is like saying that swords were never common because only the rich or distinguished officers have them today.

The Kris remains relevant even in today's world as a symbol despite its rarity. Years ago, a storm was raised over the waving of a keris by a Malaysian politician at a rally, leading to accusations of Malay supremacy being espoused

now, there's a difference of culture here. In indonesia, 80 to 90 percent of the people still live in medieval way of life, there is no reason that their krises is thrown away because of its uselessness, when some tradition is actually give a specific kris a bath once a year.
The actual situation shows that kris is rare enough from a long time ago, while the tombak (pike) is standard weapon for armies.

 

[SnowKomodo]

sorry sean, but here's the fact i always found when i've traveled far and wide in indonesia's many islands

1. I only found krises at men with royal blood or some very rich man
2. Almost all of those krises have layers of gold or silver within the blade
3. Many kerises were extremely balanced that they can stand on its sharp tip for a few seconds
4. I never met one man wields kris in my life, while normal vilagers in indonesia usually wields machete.

So...
1. Where did a majority of krises that belongs to normal men goes?
2. Just how expensive those krises at medieval era?
3. Wow, it needs a very deep skill to create one, not to mention how many workhours needs to make one, just how many skillful blacksmiths are there to supply the population?
4. What kind of cultural shock did happens that alter the habit of such many people?

I just can't see any possibility that a long time ago everybody is going anywhere with kris on their belt

fyi, ive gone to more than 10 islands, more than 20 provinces, and more than 1000 villages, i'm a road planner, my job requires me to travel and open access to those inland villages.
So please don't judge me misinformed

When I say that I am referring to Javanese tradition, the culture of which my mother comes from. Not sure what your travels have to do with it, I'm not talking about the entire Indonesia in modern times

In order to be a 'complete man' you must have those five things. That does not mean everybody has it, or must have it, but it is the traditional saying we have

EDIT: By the way, I was saying this as a side point, not part of the Kris discussion. I mentioned that before I wrote it. I just forgot to specify it is Javanese tradition specifically and not across Indonesia