Lily_Lancer
Deity
When you build something, you're actually deciding whether it worth the production it costs, not how much the discount value is. Mbanzas just don't worth what it costs if you're not Suzerain of Yerevan.
Convince Me Kongo Isn't Top Tier
- Thread starter kamex
- Start date
You can just build Mont St.Michel, which is usually not a big problem (even on Deity), since the AI does not seem to go for it that much. And building it is a good idea as Kongo anyway.
Locke_Daemonfire
Chieftain
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True, but if we're directly comparing Mbanza to Neighborhoods and considering how much of a drawback the placement requirement is, then the discount value matters. Placing a Neighborhood while harvesting a jungle tile gives a ~15% discount and some food at the cost of a builder charge. Placing a Mbanza in a jungle tile gives a 50% discount without costing a builder charge.
Thus, if Mbanzas are not worth the production cost, then Neighborhoods are not worth it either, as they cost more production for less benefit. It's hard to assess either claim. Without considering other yields, 5 more pop could be providing anywhere between 0-25 production per turn, depending on the tiles and tech level. But it takes a time investment. My gut feeling is to only build a Neighborhood in specific corner cases, but to build a Mbanza in most cities where there is a flat jungle tile to build on.
Lily_Lancer
Deity
Apostles of the same religion cannot fight with each other. So Mt. St. Michel hardly makes sense. (Since you have to move far apart to weak religions for martyr.
Also, this martyr grants you at most 5 relics since you don't have temples, thus don't have slots.
Lily_Lancer
Deity
Both Mbanzas and Neighborhoods do not worth their production if cash benefit not included, so you just ignore both of them, no matter how much discount it grants, the discount is just not enough for us to consider finish building it.
There are other ways to get slots as well... and suiciding apostels is usually easy...
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Oh ... you cannot build temples?
You don't have Holy Sites, so no shrines, temples and religious buildings (that's one belief wasted if you decide to make someone's religion your own).
Lily_Lancer
Deity
1: What is "other way", relic slots are granted by temples which Kongo cannot build. Also, Kongo cannot ensure relic*3 belief(since maybe nobody choose it), which makes these relics actually worthwhile.
2: Suiciding is not that easy since apostles of the same religion cannot fight with each other, making this operation for Kongo tough. You may find yourself being able to suicide only after wandering around for 15 Turns, then you get the relic right when or even after the game ends.
Mention: It is well-tested that dying militaristically does not count.
You cannot persuade anyone only by saying easy words. Mt. St. Michel just don't quite work for Kongo.
IF using Yerevan what I actually values is the ability to transform Barbarians. If you can get 3 Musketmans from a Mbanza, you actually profit a lot.
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In case of Kongo relics also give you a bunch of yields, including the all-precious production...
VeronicaCardican
Chieftain
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Mont St. Michel itself has two Relic slots.
Also I remember getting relics for Apostles who died at the sword of military units. So the restrictions of theological combat can be circumvented.
Also I remember getting relics for Apostles who died at the sword of military units. So the restrictions of theological combat can be circumvented.
In addition to the wonder, there's Giovanni di Medici with two slots and he is almost guaranteed in single player Kongo games.
Yes, you have to walk a bit to suicide. Don't see a problem with that, I'm rarely under pressure to finish fast.
I wonder if anyone ever had 9 relics with Kongo before the bugfix. But you probably won before you reached 7... how much faith would that have been?
Lily_Lancer
Deity
Medici do not appear in every game. For me, I also seldom build Commercial Hubs or recruit GMs other than Linius Crassus since they don't worth their investment, too.
You just don't have enough time for these relics to really take effect. You'd better invest your hammer of Mt. Michelle to other fields like campuses and universities, or workers.
As Japan or Russia you can get 15~20 relics with relic*3, but as Kongo you only get 7 without relic*3, I don't think Kongo worth building that useless wonder.
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There are only 16 relics in the game and then nothing happens... tested, I got all 16
I think the two sides to this argument are a stalemate.
On the one hand, I definitely agree with you; there are different ways to enjoy the game, and the people who play rinse/repeat games should try different things, especially when the game starts to seem stale. As someone who started playing very aggressively because it made everything else easier, I'm finding more enjoyment trying to play more like sim-city and less like Rome:Total War.
On the other hand, one of the main reasons why people come to and read from the forums is to learn better tactics and figure out optimal strategies. Figuring out optimal strategies means doing exactly the type of nit-picking that @LilyLancer is doing.
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I agree with what you are saying..it's more about approach used and "it's the only way."
So I recalculated Kongo before the bugfix faith output and Giovanni and Mont Saint-Michel don't change much. It just went from 1452 per turn to 1500 with 7 relics and 1548 with 9. It was only the 5 palace slots that did this crazy thing. Still a good thing that they corrected that.
VeronicaCardican
Chieftain
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I agree. It's one thing to say that in a domination centered game, gold trumps culture/faith and thus Kongo can't make optimal use of a certain very specialized (and arguably cheesy) strategy.
But claiming that everything else is indisputable because not going on a rampage to transform Civ VI into Total War: Civ was such bad strategy that you'd be stupid to even consider it; that's something entirely different.
That aside, I just had a multiplayer game where things just didn't fall into place for my kongolese people. Human opponents were Russia and Pericles' Greeks both playing a very peaceful game. Alas, I shared my starting continent with an overly aggressive Teddy Roosevelt who used an endless stream of cheap units on his home continent to tangle me up in a long draining war which only ended in 1700 with the fall of Washington. Greece and Russia didn't suffer any agression aside from barbarians.
Waging war meant that I couldn't dig up artifacts before the others started clearing antiquity sites and relics didn't come up either, yet. I just got Mont St. Michel but it may be too late to tip the scales as Greece went crazy on science amd might well finish its space projects before tourism is picking up for me. The match may be continued in werk ir so but I have little hope. On the plus side however, Kongo's UU really saved the day for me because I was without iron and it would have been extra hard to hold out until Musketmen if I didn't have my resource-free Swordsmen.
Multiplayer balancing is a completly different story, since many tactics are not working that well. As Kongo, you'll only get Reliquiaries or a combat enhancing belief if someone is doing a religious victory - which is a good idea to do on smaller maps if one player is Kongo. Otherwise you'll only get a religion if the spreader benefits- like Tithe or (by accident or not) Papal Primacy.
I never played Kongo in MP and I have to think about a good strategy first (I always play random). Maybe archeology/Terracotta Army rush?
On the other hand, an early conquering spree is also usually a suboptimal strategy in MP. You need to be lucky and have neighbors that rex very much and are not able to defend it. Or be Scythia with the Killer of Cyrus ability. If your initial attack is defended in MP you are either stuck in a long war or will be conquered by a third player that invested in other things first.
Neighborhoods/Mbanzas can also be dangerous in MP. They are a prime target for enemy spies, since often unguarded. The rebellion might disable your precious spy protected space port however.
I never played Kongo in MP and I have to think about a good strategy first (I always play random). Maybe archeology/Terracotta Army rush?
On the other hand, an early conquering spree is also usually a suboptimal strategy in MP. You need to be lucky and have neighbors that rex very much and are not able to defend it. Or be Scythia with the Killer of Cyrus ability. If your initial attack is defended in MP you are either stuck in a long war or will be conquered by a third player that invested in other things first.
Neighborhoods/Mbanzas can also be dangerous in MP. They are a prime target for enemy spies, since often unguarded. The rebellion might disable your precious spy protected space port however.
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