Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey
- Thread starter Valka D'Ur
- Start date
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
^ That is not good
Present day..
Present Time..!..
(serial experiments Lain).
...indeed !!!
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
It's not that odd to be asked to back up your claims. Thanks for doing so.
By doing so you have shown the value of both your claims.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
From a purely economical perspective, ignoring all non-economical variables, he is probably right.
I just think it's a dangerous way of thinking, because growth will be all you're after, even if it might not be sustainable.
And looking for growth when it's not sustainable, is just going to lead to huge problems further down the road, be it for our kids, their kids, or whoever.
But like I said, from a purely economical perspective you are probably right. I mean, isn't our economical system sort of set up on the idea of growth? It seems to revolve around it - I'm no economist, but maybe the two ideas are so intertwined because of the way things have been set up/imagined in the first place.
What do you think of co-operative businesses? There is one in my town that sells hiking, camping, active wear and gear. They don't place profits as their priority and focus on providing a quality product for a cheap price, while at the same time remaining ecologically aware. The only profits they care about is ones that will keep the business going. There are no shareholders to answer to, and every customer is a member of the co-operative, able to vote in elections.
It seems to me that the business is successful even if there isn't growth, in this case. Sure, they open up in new markets, such as in my town 3-4 years ago, but occasional growth is alright, in my eyes. What I am against is the whole "anything but growth is failure" mentality. It seems like in the case of a co-operative, it doesn't apply. The business can stagnate and remain successful - because the goals of the business are not to make a profit, but rather to provide a good, cheap, and ecological product to its customers (/members). Sometimes growth figures into that, sometimes it doesn't, at least in this case.
When you only care about profit, I agree that you'll always want growth. I don't see a way around it.
There's something to remember, growth doesn't need to be sustainable as long as there's a mechanism available to transition to sustainability. It doesn't need to be iron-clad, but it needs to be recognised.
To use an example, I can non-sustainably fish a pond in order to survive if I am waiting for my grain harvest to come in. If I haven't planted grain, then, yeah, I'm in trouble. If I hadn't planted grain, then we shouldn't have grown. Suppose my pond can support one person, but my grainfield can support 6: it's still okay to bring in 6 people and fish that pond IF we've planted grain with enough warning.
There's a subset of people who think we shouldn't have 6 people fishing, but only have 1. Then, for some reason, these people will then go and bring in 2 or more people to the pond, but never really help plant that grain. It's remarkable how little the average person invests in making us sustainable. The best we really can hope for from people is that they'll increase their efficiency (slowing their consumption of the non-sustainable resource) IF there's money to be saved doing so.
To expand: by all accounts our fossil fuel consumption is non-sustainable. But IF we send enough fusion scientists to work in gas-guzzlers, then it won't matter. In other words, burning the fossil fuels to get PV, wind, nuclear, and fusion infrastructure won't have been 'a mistake'. Now, the unsustainable consumption/growth CAN be a mistake, but it needn't be, even if it's currently unsustainable. Now, we decidedly have more time if we put those scientists into fuel-efficient economy cars, BUT, it's still non-sustainable consumption.
Well, locally, it depends on whether that business has employees. I mean, if there are local people who have jobs because of this co-op, then the stagnation isn't value-neutral. And, of course, the people who originally make those products certainly care (at least a wee bit) regarding the local success of the business. But, to maybe answer your underlying question, I don't think that anyone has to make a profit for there to be growth. All you need is economic surplus.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
I understand your examples, but it requires for people to consider the sustainability. In many cases it's a bunch of greedy guys just wanting to make more money; they don't care about the future. They just want money in their pockets, today.
Yeah, but it seems to me that in this case you can have success without growth. So the statement "You don't need growth to consider a business to be a success" appears to be not untrue.
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
just a friendly reminder ....
Moderator Action: This post is pure spam.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Well, it's not just greedy guys, it's also customers. Both groups are just trying to improve their lives, today. The business pursuing money is only half that equation. Ostensibly, both parties are perceiving a benefit to this exchange. In my day to day life, I barely contribute to our longterm sustainability. Often, the best I am doing is slowing the rate of my unsustainable consumption.
Oh! I misunderstood. In broad sweeps, you're correct. I fully agree. In fact, a business can be designed to wither and die and still be considered a success. I mean, obviously, all businesses need a period of growth, but ehn, I get your point. That said, I'm not sure a business that "provide
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
"Need as well as greed has followed us to the stars ! And the rewards of wealth still awaits those wise enough to recognize this deep druming...." CEO Nwabudike Morgan 
Link to video.
Link to video.
You know what's neat? How the above quotation brings Adam's post right to the top of the Google search returns. This means that 'somehow', the post has already been archived, analysed, and made available to search engines.
In my day, we had to wait before new content was available to search engines.
In my day, we had to wait before new content was available to search engines.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Yeah, that's why I initially said that I think sometimes growth is good, but sometimes you don't need it for success. Depends on the scenario. I was under the impression that you were saying that you need growth no matter what - otherwise you can't say your business is successful, which I have to disagree with.
I chimed in because I think obsession with growth can be dangerous. I've gotten some insights from our exchange, but I haven't really budged from this thought. It seems to me that a lot of people put on blinders and want growth, growth, growth, even if it's detrimental to our society and the environment, or whatever else.
Ah, I certainly think that some types of growth can be bad. But, I think that's only a small portion of the space occupied by 'growth', and that the majority of this space is vastly superior to no growth. And this doesn't mean that 'everything' must grow, only that 'the whole' grows. I think the only way to wean from an unsustainable system is through growth, proper growth, yeah. That, or let people die. I'm not too sure I am impressed with 'let people die' as a solution. Never have been.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Proper growth that grows at the same rate as society makes sense to me. Sustainable growth! That's not what most businesses do though, they're just out there to make money and grow as much as they possibly can.
Not that I'm against capitalism or anything, I just think people obsess over growth too much.
Not that I'm against capitalism or anything, I just think people obsess over growth too much.
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
You know what's neat? How the above quotation brings Adam's post right to the top of the Google search returns. This means that 'somehow', the post has already been archived, analysed, and made available to search engines.
In my day, we had to wait before new content was available to search engines.
- The Alpha Codex
Link to video.
I'm not sure what this means. Population growth? I'm not sure how the society is growing in this sentence.
Question unanswered.
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
Well You can always watch the news ... or something ....
Aroddo
Emperor
if you live in the USA you might just go to the official site:
http://www.cosmosontv.com/watch/256286787977
if not, try this:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cosmos+a+spacetime+odyssey+stream
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
It's an abstract thought, but if the economy as a whole grows at the same rate as the rest of society, that seems like something that has a far better chance to be sustainable than a model that focuses on growth no matter what.
I realize that it's not easy to quantify these things, so consider it just an abstract though. I'm more throwing these things out there, than arguing for them.
I'm like 90% there, I just don't understand what type of 'growth' the rest of society is experiencing.
