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COTM45 - Final Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by civ_steve, Feb 12, 2008.

  1. Chamnix

    Chamnix Chasing Time

    Joined:
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    Location:
    NJ, USA
    Predator class, rather unfocused beginning because I didn’t choose a victory condition until the Middle Ages :hammer2:. It ended up being a 100K game.

    Of course worker S sees the other cow, and I opted to settle in place. The capital built a warrior and 2 settlers before the granary. It then produced 4-turn settlers for much of the rest of the game to help ICS conquered areas.

    The first 2 settlers settled the nearby high food areas, so it wasn’t until my third settler that I could get a town on the coast to build curraghs after I realized the isolated situation.



    Research was Pottery followed by the Republic slingshot all at maximum. Republic was completed in 1600 BC and the revolt lasted 4 turns. Based on my contacts at that point, the tech pace seemed horribly slow, so I decided my next priority was Mathematics leading to Construction – I almost never research Construction myself, but I felt early aqueducts would be very helpful.

    Once I was in Republic, I saved money to buy embassies as I met tribes. My first phony war started in 1400 BC against Egypt. I allied both Rome and Persia against them tied with peace treaties to get eventual war happiness.

    Since this was a 70% water archipelago map, I started a prebuild for the Great Lighthouse in 1625 BC. Although I realized it wouldn’t be necessary for conquest on this map well before it completed, I decided to let it complete so I could ship extra luxuries home (and +1 movement couldn’t hurt). The Lighthouse completed in 590 BC.

    QSC:

    12 cities
    46 citizens
    1 settler
    20 workers
    1 warrior
    11 curraghs



    I also had 1 previous settler that I carelessly let get trapped and killed by barbarians. Courthouses are prebuilds for aqueducts, Pyramids is for Great Lighthouse.

    By 630 BC, I had all contacts and embassies everywhere, but Greece, Carthage, and the Celts all lacked contact with anyone still. I thought it was hilarious that the Celts and the Carthaginians didn’t meet until 310 BC despite being on the same landmass and having capitals about 10 tiles apart. As soon as they finally did meet, I ordered them to fight for my entertainment.

    I finally landed in Egypt in about 430 BC. Just before the war, my military of 19 warriors and 7 boats was average compared to Egypt – it wasn’t much of a contest once the warriors were upgraded. I didn’t build a harbor on the iron island. Instead I built warriors on my mainland and shipped them over to iron island to be upgraded before landing in Egypt.

    Egypt wasn’t eliminated until 30 AD mainly because I waited for them to complete the Temple of Artemis for me. I ripped through Persia, Greece, and Rome, but I left each of them with one city because they were all still providing war happiness.

    In 490 BC, after my Sipahi-started Golden Age ended, I revolted to Feudalism for an 8-turn anarchy and just whipped and whipped and whipped. Pretty much every town got a library, temple (if not on the continent with the Temple of Artemis), cathedral, then colosseum. I peaked at about 63% of the land in 1090 when I grew sick of whipping and pretty much just hit enter for the last 30 or so turns to reach 100K in 1335 AD.

    Regarding the enhanced unique units - Egypt’s unique unit was never a problem – I cut their horses a couple turns after landing and saw very few war chariots. Persian immortals were somewhat annoying, since they almost never lost on an attack, but I had the worst time with Carthage’s numidian mercs. Even though I had sipahi by the time I attacked Carthage, I hated the fact that my sipahi were underdogs when fighting an ancient age unit fortified in a hill city. I never fought China (just used them for fake war happiness), and by the time I fought the Celts, they had long since been building MDI instead of Gallic Swordsmen.



     
  2. Andronicus

    Andronicus Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,672
    Predator, 20k in 1525ad

    Settled in place, researched pots then rep sling shot, then lit

    Builds
    Built 1 turn of wealth, then worker, 3 warriors (2 explored, 1 mp), granary, settler (to southern wheat), setter (to southern coast), pyramids,temple, oracle, GLib (GA), lib, HG,MoM then all medieval wonders except Sun Tzu's (which I built in another city to stop any cascade).

    Other cities
    Wheat city provided workers and occ settler (4 turn SF in republic), southern city built 4 curraghs, then collosus (again to prevent AI wonder cascades - later FP, this was a great commerce site).

    AI AA wonders
    Carthage built ToA and SoZ, Rome GLH, Persia GW

    Trades and contacts
    Curraghs quickly met Egypt and Persia, but didnt meet Romans until after circumnavigating Greek island. I never met the other civs until after astronomy as 4 curraghs (the initial 2 and 2 sent later) died crossing, and 2 galleys died to barb galleys - I could see Chinese border, but not contact them :( .
    I forget what I traded for, I think it was CB, BW, WC, myst. I waited for GLib to learn wheel, IW and self researched maths, currency, construction, poly and monarchy. Only other techs the AI ever researched were feudalism (which I learnt from GLib), chivalry, fascism and communism.

    Wars and leaders
    Wars didnt start till late with prioritising wonder city and settling my island and horse and iron island.
    I squeezed in a city and culture stole incense from Egypt. At about this time Persia dow-ed, so I allied Rome and Egypt. This left Persia weak for the rest of the game. When the 20 turns finished I had assembled units to attack Egypt - first e battle (a barb trained archer -> MGL) Unfortunately it was over 40 more elite victories before my next elite victory. I ended up having to hand build all the small wonders except Pentagon as leader luck deserted me for the rest of the game. I counted over 60 elite victories with tanks and sipihis as I rapidly accounted for all Carthage and Celts without a single leader :mad: .

    Age change techs
    At end of AA I gifted Persia and Greeks up, they got engineering and mono which I could trade for, then got free theol myself (a bit of luck).
    My gifting up of Greece and Persia at end of medieval resulted Greece getting Nationalism (which they wouldnt part with for anything) and Persia got steam which I could trade for. I then got lucky again getting free electricity. Unfortunately at next age change I wasnt so lucky as Greece got Robotics and Persia Ecology. Ecology reduced my chances for a useful tech so I didnt purchase it - I did purchase Rocketry (for my entire gpt - I think it was around 500gpt) and then I got Ecology!

    War with Greece
    I promptly dowed Greece to get out of the gpt payments (Persia was happy to ally), and set about self researching the culture wonder techs. Generaqlly phoney war although Greece did bomb a transport full of mech infantry which planned to pillage.
    On the last turn of the game Athens got nuked :devil:

    The site was a powerhouse for shields, although in retrospect there would have been more shields moving 1 SW to get an extra mountain in place of coast.
     
  3. pol1

    pol1 kayaking physicist

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    398
    Location:
    Koszalin, Poland
    conquest, 1240 AD

    settled in place and went for republic slingshot, which succeded and became republic about 1200 BC. Trading CoL, Philo and REP around left me without one or two techs in AA. first researched literature and then others.
    by MA i knew Rome, Egypt and Persia. there were some small wars between them, nothing special.
    at the beginning of MA i received Engineering as free tech, then researched Feudalism and beelined to MT and later only get monotheism and theology through some peace deals. i had prebuild for Leo, but it still took some time until i finished it, during that time my towns were training horses for future upgrade (later using disconnect/reconnect way, i builded horses and upgraded them every few turns to sipahis).
    with sipahis on the stage, somewhere around 450-500 AD, Ottomans' expansion began. Rome, Egypt and Persia fell in less than my GA, less than 20 turns during which towns produced quite a lot of horses-->sipahis.
    during next scores of turns world was almost constantly at war. with some fake peace treaties to get remote island towns (yes, there was one Egyptian town on one tile island, that would need marines to capture in order to accomplish conquest VC). last celt town was captured in 1230 AD.
    AIs' UUs had no impact on game, not at all. probably cause i've started conquering so late and with sipahis, in which case hoplites or numidians were no match for them.

    oh, and one thing, with sipahis' speed and power WW was not a problem.
     
  4. PaperBeetle

    PaperBeetle Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
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    Location:
    London
    :confused: Unusual strategy. An irrigated grass supporting an engineer makes only 2spt, but a mined grass can make 4spt in the industrial, with factory and power plant. And in the modern age, with mfg and nuclear plants, that goes up to 6spt.
    I did use engineers to run a food deficit - I was playing 20k up at the river mouth, and my town had a natural (i.e. fully mined) food surplus of +1fpt. I was irrigating, adding in the fresh engineers, re-mining to create food deficit, and then when I needed to refill the food box, I would draft the surplus citizens out again. Micro heaven. :cool:
     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Heidelberg
    Moved the worker 1S and discovered the second cow. Then I moved the settler 1SW for the following reason: the water at E-NE would most probably be salty and then I wanted my capital to be further inland and have enough space for another town on the coast. (In addition I had two extra gold...)

    The game itself went smooth, no problems, the UUs of the ASs posed no problems... I took over China first, as they didn't have a defensive UU. Then I had Sipahis and the other ASs posed no problem either. The Romans had built the Pyramids for me, so I set up a second core in former Roman&Egyptian territory and jumped my palace into it using a great leader.

    Around 1200AD I stopped my expansion because of the following:
    • 1200AD looked like a pretty late date for a Domination victory to me. I was sure, that the experts here would have achieved that 500 or even 1000 years before me, and I didn't want to compete in that kind of game.
    • Also I thought, that because of the great Sipahi many people will choose Domination/Conquest. Perhaps I would have chances for a medal, if I chose the least likely victory condition? I had two well-infrastructured and food-rich cores, so how about trying my first milk-run?

    A stupid idea... The game would have been over after 20h with a pretty good score. Now it dragged on for 60h and I probably got a much lower score than if I had taken the domination in 1250AD :wallbash:

    First my idea of how milking a game works, had probably been a bit naive... I thought I just buy a couple of markets, aquaeducts, etc and then press enter until 2050AD... Well, life taught me differently the hard way...

    Around 1550AD I checked CivAssist and noticed that it predicted my 100K victory for 1798... Ok, no big deal, I just sold my temples, libraries, universities and cathedrals whereever I could, until my 100K date was shown as 2053. Of course that would mean a lower score, as many cities were not able to have 100% happy people without the cathedrals.

    Next I noticed that my good friends and research partners, the Persians, were about to finish the United Nations a couple of turns before me. We had always been on best terms and never had a war, but now they had to go. :(

    I while later I noticed that my other very good friend, Hannibal, had already completed 8 spaceship parts. That meant a second time-consuming war. I was dealing with MechInf and Modern Armors this time, and was very close to the domination limit, so only could take one city at a time, gift it to the Romans and take the next, without stepping over the limit... Fortunately Hannibal was willing to talk again after only a few years and I made peace again. (Unfortunately I was not allowed not eliminate them, because then my own borders would expand into their territory and trigger domination...) The metropolises I had gifted to the Romans, culture-flipped back to Carthago a couple of turns later, so I expected I would have to repeat this exercise a couple more times, when Hannibal's next spaceship would be close to completion...

    Of course all that time pollution cost valuable minutes and was very tedious. I had enough workers to immediately clean it up so I wouldn't loose population, but it's so boring...

    And then in 1860 my last remaining good friend, tiny Greece, sneak-attacked me, burning two cities of size 15!! :mad: The city state of Rome joined them, because they had a MPP. That wouldn't be a problem, as I could easily rebuild my two cities and bring them back to size with workers, but I finally fell into what I think must be a bug in CivAssist II:
    At the beginning of 1862 I checked CivAssist and it told me 14 tiles to domination. I didn't take any greek city in that turn and my borders didn't expand anywhere. I took the last Roman city, and as it had only 5 land tiles and 4 water tiles, I decided to keep it for a while. I'm sure that only land tiles count towards domination, so I should have been still 9 tiles away from the limit. And even if water tiles count as well, it would still be 5 tiles to the limit.
    But after I ended that turn, I got the message "Congratulation, you have achieved the domination victory!" :hammer2: :wallbash: :aargh:

    So is this indeed a bug in CivAssist, or does the domination limit depend on the number of ASs in the game and I shouldn't have taken the last Roman city?

    Another strange thing I noticed, for which someone perhaps knows an answer: at the end of the game I had completed 12 future techs, but the contribution to the total score for these techs was only "3.2" points, as shown in F8?! That must be a joke, right? We are talking about 48 turns of tech output here!
    Is it really not worth to research future tech, or does the number of points per tech grow, as you get more of them?

    Lanzelot
     
  6. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

    Joined:
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    Milking sucks. Domination can happen so easy when on the knife's edge. Shoulda just went for the early domination or Conquest as a challenge.
     
  7. Chamnix

    Chamnix Chasing Time

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    Location:
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    Most milkers actually eliminate all rivals except one and banish that one to a city in the tundra somewhere so you don't have to deal with any threats :).

    Shift-A (automate workers but don't change any current improvements) is your friend :). Milking is still mind-numbingly boring, but that is one less thing to do manually.

    I've always found CAII to be accurate in the domination limit. Coast tiles do count toward domination, but sea and ocean do not. The domination limit doesn't depend on the number of rivals. Maybe capturing that town gave you cultural control of some tiles between it and your border?


    Future techs are indeed a joke. Until you reach 100% happy faces, generally you will score better running maximum luxuries instead of researching.
     
  8. supersova_SU

    supersova_SU Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    Siberia
    Domination Victory
    Game date: 580 AD
    Firaxis score: 7268
    Jason score: 10625


    Paul#42
    Domination Victory
    Game date: 680 AD
    Firaxis score: 7766
    Jason score: 11040 !!!- impossible !
    Great result...
     
  9. klarius

    klarius ... !

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Germany
    Well, just managed to get it in in time (even more impossible :)):

    Game: C3C COTM 45
    Date submitted: 2008-03-02
    Reference number: 16784
    Your name: klarius
    Software Version: C3C 1.22 for Windows
    Entry class: Predator
    Game status: Spaceship Victory for Ottomans
    Game date: 1100 AD
    Firaxis score: 7956
    Jason score: 11510
    Time played: 56:00:21
     
  10. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Perhaps you would care to explain to us sometime how one can score so high with a spaceship victory? Is it just reaching the domination limit very fast and then working on the spaceship, or is there a special trick?
     
  11. eldar

    eldar ChiefTank

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Mechanicsburg, PA
    It's reaching the Dom limit fast, which is pretty much the key to all victory types (except 20K & conquest). The faster you get there, the bigger your pop will be at the end.

    I submitted a 1365 SS win for about 9.5k Jason. Apart from a few cities that formed part of my core, I had the entire Persia/Egypt/Rome continent, China, and a decent-sized chunk of the Celts/Carthage continent completely railed, irrigated, and ICS'ed. Persia had the Pyramids so my pop on that continent was vast. Most of those were happy or specialists.

    Klarius presuambly did something similar, but naturally far better than I can manage!
     
  12. klarius

    klarius ... !

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    Well, I didn't reach the domination limit fast (~800AD only). But I did settle and build improvements with looking for milking from very early. Quite a few harbors and aqueducts, which didn't really help for space ship, but just got the population up.
    Lots of workers to have railed irrigated tiles in every city early also help.
    War happiness and luxes, so nearly all citizens are happy from quite early.

    All this means, I couldn't afford a lot of military. But that's also not necessary on this level.
    A few horses took Egypt.
    A handful of knights Rome.
    For Persia there was also a knight army. The same army did the toughest work in Carthage.
    Finally the overkill with a few tanks against Celts.
     
  13. pol1

    pol1 kayaking physicist

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    Location:
    Koszalin, Poland
    AFAIR every future tech researched adds 5 points to current turn's score. so You had +0 for first 4 turns, +5 for 4 turns, +10 for another 4 turns and so on.
    it nets You altogether ~1230 points (w/o counting 12th tech), sounds nice, but then You have to divide it by number of turns that already had passed, in Your case about 400. which gives only a little bit more than 3 points added to total score. joke.


    making citizens happier gives better score.
     
  14. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    4,401
    Did not care much about score, just to finish somehow.
    Initially thought that Knighs will be enough, but 2.4.1 Cartage uu and 3.2.3 was difficult. Killed them boyh with own UU.
    Did not touch Greeks and China.
    Entry class: Open
    Game status: Domination Victory for Ottomans
    Game date: 480 AD
    Firaxis score: 7830
    Jason score: 11127
    Time played: 46:16:15
     
  15. Paul#42

    Paul#42 flyball chaser

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    Location:
    Hamburg
    Great result. :thumbsup:
    Only one little flaw... :shake: ;)
     
  16. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, you are right: I compared the 1862 auto-save file with the final position, and by expanding I got 11 coastal tiles under my control, which I hadn't taken into account... So instead of the expected 6, I gained 17 tiles, which are indicated correctly by CAII. (Up to now I thought, only land tiles count for domination...)
    In the attached screenshot I marked the 1862 border (before taking Viroconium).

    pol1: Thanks for the details about future techs! Quite interesting to know...

    Lanzelot
     
  17. Red Horse

    Red Horse Second of Four

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    An open class, conquest victory in 1848AD. I had a lot of fun playing this game, especially with the steroidal Sipahi. This was my first conquest victory in years as I usually become bored and opt for a quick domination vic or a ride on the SS.:mischief:

    In the AA I focused on settling my small land mass, finding the necessary resources and gaining the technology to harvest those resources. The MA was a beeline to MT and the Sipahi. To prepare for this event I had built many Horsemen and Leo’s to lessen the burden on the treasury once upgrading was possible.

    My first act with the newly acquired Sipahi was to attack China with the idea of gaining experience for the troops. This did net a GL which became my first army. I next chose Rome as the target of my aggression. My relationship with Cleo (trading partners, ROP) kept me from attacking her next. Rome fell rather quickly and so now I was looking at Egypt. Cleo then attacked Xerxes and paid for my help. Together we easily wiped out Persia.

    It was during this Persian war that my strategy for Egypt evolved. I would stop half way up the Persian peninsula and allow Cleo’s troops to take the farthest cities, thus removing her troops from the central portion of her landmass, my attackers at the base of the peninsula would pick off the returning troops. Meanwhile, still with a ROP I positioned three Armies near her capital. It was here, just a few turns from implementing my strategy that Cleo attacked me.:eek:

    My strategy unraveled at this point.:blush: Yes, I did beat up her returning troops and my armies did cut off the capital. However, her cities I found, were very well defended and were not able to be taken without sustaining heavy losses. Additionally, I realized production in the homeland was sluggish and not able to keep up with the war effort. We battled to a stalemate, though my armies did pillage nearly every tile she worked.

    Time for Plan B. I now concentrated on a beeline to Flight (love those Bombers). Switched to Commie and also built the ToE (I like the tech kick). I was also becoming concerned with the Celts who had nearly wiped out Carthage. I send over an army to help Brennus rearrange his landscape. With a freshly stocked attack force I needed a victim and Alex was it. Not quite enough bombers to take on Egypt, backward Greece was an easy target. I decided to keep the Grecian continent and it became a fine producer of Ottoman arms. This was also a fortuitous decision since it turned out to be my only source of oil.:)

    Plenty of bombers in hand now, it was time to take on Cleo. For the second time in the game, my delay in attacking her allowed her to upgrade her defenders, this time to Infantry. This fact notwithstanding, my armies once again pillaged her land, bombers reduced her attackers and then her defenders to nothing and the Sipahi overran Egypt. Carthage’s last island city also fell at this time.

    A few turns to position my attackers and the destruction of the mighty Celtic nation was started in earnest. Peace for a foot hold on his continent (three cities at the southern tip, above the China continent), where I could unload my now massive armies was all I needed. The Celts fell rather quickly. At game’s end I had 13 armies (all 4 Sipahi) and over 100 bombers. None of the AI UUs were a factor for me since I started my warring quite late.

    A pitifully low score compared to those posted previously:bowdown: but I really enjoyed myself with this game none the less.

    Firaxis score: 3453
    Jason score: 4533
    Time played: 42:09:04

    Kudos to Steve for a super idea. :goodjob:
     
  18. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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    formerly Santa Clarita, California
    It looks like this idea was well received; I'm glad the players in general enjoyed the slightly improved UU's, so we'll have to play around with that in the future. :)

    Checked the .biq files for this game, and the Chinese Riders did not have Blitz. With a 4 movement, a stack of Riders would be very unpleasant!

    @Lanzelot: I only tried a couple of milked games, and found them very tedious. You really don't want to be bothered by the AI, so leaving just one with 1 remote city is ideal. Some players will leave stacks of privateers around their isolated location; no war weariness, and no way for them to escape. The real problem in getting a good score is the pollution; you have to go clean it up and reassign the citizen. 2nd problem is your specialists - the program seems to like to make taxmen, but you really want Entertainers to make as many Happy citizens as possible. If you let the Governor reassign the worker, you don't have to do it manually after cleaning the pollution, but then he also reassigns your specialists. Bah!
     
  19. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    At least the specialists you can reassign from the F1 screen.
     
  20. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yep, after this game I know why... :D
    I guess, I'm just a too peaceful type of guy... After all, the Greek, Carthagineans, and Persians have always been really good friends, and I just couldn't get myself to attacking them...

    I kept playing a couple of turns after the game had ended, and more trouble was in store for me: after I had started shifting troups to Greece to punish them for their sneak attack, I noticed that Carthago was only a couple of turns from finishing the space ship again, so I had to take their capital again. They wouldn't talk for a while, and I didn't have enough troups close by to make a quick end to the war, so war weariness and the lost luxuries dropped my score pretty badly...
    I definitely aggree: first take the world, then start milking...! Thanks for the tips!

    Lanzelot
     

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