Could *Japan* have won?

amadeus

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Instead of the usual "could Germany have won WWII?" thread, I thought maybe I'd give it a little twist and ask if Japan, under any circumstances, could have won.

Let's say, for example, Japan focuses entirely on the China campaign and after winning (presuming victory is possible), goes on to fight a two-front war with Germany against the Soviet Union. Would that have bought Japan more time or enough resources? Would the campaigns be so draining that it would be impossible? What if Japan bypasses the Philippines and goes straight for the Dutch East Indies? Just a few sample questions. :D
 
I don't think so. THey simply didn't have the industrial base America had. Eventualy we would have ended up in a war with them.
However, if they had focused solely on Asia and china, waited 10-20 to build up their industry and consolidate, then they might have had a chance. Of course, then we are no longer talking abuot WWII.
 
As long as they felt the need to attack the US, probably not.
 
Well. If they possibly Struck Faster and harder.. and completed more of their proposed objectives in the Pearl Harbor Raid.. (attacking the Fuel containers and the repair docks) and if the carriers were there but that is all what if..

Otherwise I doubt they could of won, The war was basically lost for them after Midway, where they lost a majority of their fleet carriers..
 
Instead of the usual "could Germany have won WWII?" thread, I thought maybe I'd give it a little twist and ask if Japan, under any circumstances, could have won.

Let's say, for example, Japan focuses entirely on the China campaign and after winning (presuming victory is possible), goes on to fight a two-front war with Germany against the Soviet Union. Would that have bought Japan more time or enough resources? Would the campaigns be so draining that it would be impossible? What if Japan bypasses the Philippines and goes straight for the Dutch East Indies? Just a few sample questions. :D


The thing is, Japan did focus all its attention on its campaign with China. Lets draw up some numbers for comparison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

Now, according to Wiki, Japan pulled out 4-5 million troops while China defended with 5.5-6 million troops.
For Japan's invasion of Southeast Asia, more specifically, Malaya and Singapore, General Yamashita used about 80,000-100,000 troops. The same troops were used to conquer much of Indonesia. About 130,000 troops were used to capture Philippines.
In contrast 300,000 troops were used in the Battle of Shanghai alone. The Battle of Nanking occupied 240,000 troops, the Battle of Wuhan, 350,000 troops.

Japan was already exhausting all its efforts in pacifying and attacking in China. The 2nd Sino-Japanese war lasted longer than the Japanese Generals expected and as a result sapped up a huge amount of their resources and reserves.

The only reason why Japan managed to even conquer S.E.A is because European resources was being diverted to the European War with Hitler rather than the colonies. Only 2 battleships and no planes protected Singapore against Japan's entire Navy and airforce.

Secondly, not only was China taking up all of Japan's reserved resources, Japan could not replenish its resources fast enough (which was why Japan invaded S.E.A) in the first place. The American embargo and Japan's war with Europe entirely cut off its trade in oil, iron, rubber, coal and other rare materials. The invasion of S.E.A was in an act of desperation, it was a do or die situation (actually more delayed death or immediate death situation) to attack S.E.A for their resources. Japan simply could not sustain it's war effort and it certainly could not have survived till 1945 without S.E.A. By the end of the war, the home islands were stripped bare of supplies. The Japanese would have starved to death if they continued the war.

So Japan could not have just wrapped up the war with China and invade Siberia. There weren't enough troops to do so in the first place. Even if they took all the men from war in S.E.A and pushed it in China instead, they could at most muster up 200,000-400,000. It just simply did not have the military capabilities to do so.

Lastly, the introduction of the US in war more or less, accelerated the final demise of the Japanese military machine. There was no way that the Japanese could face up to the might of the Americans, even if they didn't used the bombs and landed on the main islands, Japan would have lost eventually after months of fighting to the last man.
 
Well. If they possibly Struck Faster and harder.. and completed more of their proposed objectives in the Pearl Harbor Raid.. (attacking the Fuel containers and the repair docks) and if the carriers were there but that is all what if..

Otherwise I doubt they could of won, The war was basically lost for them after Midway, where they lost a majority of their fleet carriers..

Numerically speaking, Midway was a major turning point, but it wasn't a necessary turning point. The Americans were already developing a superior carrier-based plane, the Hellcat, and were building warships at a far greater rate than Japan could, especially since they couldn't purchase ships from the major European powers like they did earlier in the century.

Also, destroying the fuel containers and repair docks at Pearl Harbor would not win the war because the majority of US fuel production and industry was in the US proper, where Japan did not have the capacity to occupy let alone attack.

By my reckoning, Midway might have shaved six months off the war. Destroying the fuel containers/repair docks might have lengthened it by the same amount. But the outcome wouldn't change.
 
Yeah but it might have helped the Japanese, as the Americans would have trouble brining the Sunken Ships as Pearl Harbor back into service, They brought all back except the Arizona (If I remember correctly). But The major flaw was that the American Carriers were not at Pearl Harbor..
Also Midway is usually considered the time when the Americans when from the defensive to the offensive and the Japanese went from the Offensive to the Defensive and it was a Major blow to the Japanese Navy, (4 Fleet Carriers Sunk, and a CA Sunk as well).
I also agree Even if Japan had taken Midway, they probably could not have held it for long. It was only important because it had a airbase and was within range of Hawaii.

Edit:
Also if I remember correctly, the Fuel Tanks at Pearl Harbor was the Fuel for the entire Pacific Fleet, and I've read somewhere that if the Fuel Tanks and Repair Facilities were destroyed the American Fleet would have to abandon Hawaii and head back to San Diego.
 
Also if I remember correctly, the Fuel Tanks at Pearl Harbor was the Fuel for the entire Pacific Fleet, and I've read somewhere that if the Fuel Tanks and Repair Facilities were destroyed the American Fleet would have to abandon Hawaii and head back to San Diego.

This is a common belief that is true on the face of it, but vastly underestimates the scale of the effort required. The tank farm was divided between many tanks separated by berms. There were sufficient anti-fire mechanisms to render strafing and shrapnel useless for lighting up the tanks, so each individual tank would take a direct bomb hit to blow, which would be prevented from spreading to the other tanks by the berms. Knocking out the entire tank farm would require a wholly dedicated strike (ie that mythical third strike) with exceptional accuracy, not simply thinking: "hey, why don't we go after the fuel".

Same for the repair facilities, structures of reinforced concrete and steel that are very difficult to permanently damage. All in all, divying up the limited number of strike planes to hit the ships and air fields is likely a a better task than a possibly futile attempt to knock out the tanks or repair facilities.
 
Yeah but it might have helped the Japanese, as the Americans would have trouble brining the Sunken Ships as Pearl Harbor back into service, They brought all back except the Arizona (If I remember correctly). But The major flaw was that the American Carriers were not at Pearl Harbor..

Edit:
Also if I remember correctly, the Fuel Tanks at Pearl Harbor was the Fuel for the entire Pacific Fleet, and I've read somewhere that if the Fuel Tanks and Repair Facilities were destroyed the American Fleet would have to abandon Hawaii and head back to San Diego.

The Oklahoma was raised and not repaired, I think, and the Utah stayed under according to the wiki. But 5 of the big battleships were raised, repaired, and sent back into action.

I'm not denying anything you have said on the logistical side--if the Japanese were able to take out the fuel, which as mentioned above isn't as easy as dropping a couple bombs or rounds of tracer fire and calling it a day, it would not have made a difference to the outcome of the war. The refineries to produce fuel in the United States were not at Pearl Harbor, and the US had significant oil reserves at this point in Texas and other areas. The US could produce more fuel and supplies, build more ships, and start the same island-hopping strategy.

The only reason why the "more complete" destruction of the US naval base in Hawaii would be relevant is if you thought the USA would just say "not worth it", and give up after Pearl Harbor. Otherwise, it was a matter of technology, manpower, resources, and time, and all four factors arguably favored the USA.

Also Midway is usually considered the time when the Americans when from the defensive to the offensive and the Japanese went from the Offensive to the Defensive and it was a Major blow to the Japanese Navy, (4 Fleet Carriers Sunk, and a CA Sunk as well).
I also agree Even if Japan had taken Midway, they probably could not have held it for long. It was only important because it had a airbase and was within range of Hawaii.

Yes, I'm quite aware of the losses at this battle, and I said this was a turning point. What I don't agree with is that if the USA lost the Battle of Midway, there would not have been another turning point later on that would have dealt an equivalently severe blow to the Japanese. The USA could replace lost vessels much more easily than the Japanese. Therefore, when a battle inevitably went against the Japanese, it would be a "major" turning point. It just so happened to occur at Midway in mid-1942, but it didn't have to.
 
Had they not invaded China and used those resources to expand all across the Pacific and SE Asia they might have had a chance.
 
Had they not invaded China and used those resources to expand all across the Pacific and SE Asia they might have had a chance.

They would have had more resources available immediately, but since it is impossible for Japan to achieve a quick knockout blow (after all, the USA is simply too large to invade completely in a few weeks), you have to take into account industrial capacity. This heavily weights any long-term analysis against Japan.

Additionally, given that a large number of US shipyards were along the east coast, Japan would not only have to attack the East Coast harbors but get through the Panama Canal somehow or travel around South America and hit the other US shipyards as well. I don't see that as particularly feasible.
 
Yeah Japan had almost no ways of winning. I was just throwing those things out there.
I completely agree with you, The Americans could replace their losses much faster then the Japanese, so Yeah even if the Japanese had sunk the 3 American Carriers at Midway they would of been replaced at a later date.
 
With France and Holland under German occupation, they might have been able to take and keep Indochina and the Dutch East Indies without bringing in the US and GB. As I see it, could they have found a way to keep the US out of the Pacific war. Maybe negotiated for the Philippines by aiding the war against Germany. Or perhaps an attack on the soviets would not have provoked the US.
 
Had they not invaded China and used those resources to expand all across the Pacific and SE Asia they might have had a chance.

The 30 odd aircraft carriers and 1000 odd other warships we built between 1941 and 1945 argue otherwise.
 
Japan had little chance of a complete victory over China, let alone a successful occupation. It lost all hope of ever winning the war by attacking Pearl Harbor. Japan was simply overstretched, and did not have the resources to win the war.

Let's say, for example, Japan focuses entirely on the China campaign and after winning (presuming victory is possible), goes on to fight a two-front war with Germany against the Soviet Union. Would that have bought Japan more time or enough resources? Would the campaigns be so draining that it would be impossible? What if Japan bypasses the Philippines and goes straight for the Dutch East Indies? Just a few sample questions. :D

As aronnax pointed out, Japan did focus on the China front even after the Pacific War began, and entirely so for four years before that. Even if Japan managed to carry on the war despite the oil embargo, the war would drag on for many years, by which time Germany would already be pushed back by the Soviets across Eastern Europe and perhaps defeated. A total Japanese victory over China was highly unlikely; at best, it can only hope for the Kuomintang to splinter and a peace deal giving them some coastal territories.

Japan would have better luck attacking the Soviet Union rather than the United States in 1941. Even so, victory was unlikely unless the Germans did well in the west. The Japanese might even lose Manchuria.

If Japan did choose the Southern route, the United States must not get involved. If the United States enters the war, it would all be over for Japan, as the USA can simply outproduce Japan. And even if the USA did not get involved, it is unlikely whether Japan can actually conquer and hold India, especially if the war in China continues.

In the end, Japan ended up fighting on four or five fronts at once (six if you count Manchuria, where there were hundreds of thousands of troops even while war was raging in the Pacific and other parts of China, and where the Soviet Union eventually invaded). They just can't win.

They did have the epic battleships for it, but I don't think so.

IIRC, the Yamato only fired its guns once, and was soon sunk by Allied aircrafts.

Well. If they possibly Struck Faster and harder.. and completed more of their proposed objectives in the Pearl Harbor Raid.. (attacking the Fuel containers and the repair docks) and if the carriers were there but that is all what if..

The USA would just build more ships.

The only reason why the "more complete" destruction of the US naval base in Hawaii would be relevant is if you thought the USA would just say "not worth it", and give up after Pearl Harbor. Otherwise, it was a matter of technology, manpower, resources, and time, and all four factors arguably favored the USA.

This, definitely. As Yamamoto said, the only way to knock the United States out of the war would be to dictate the peace terms in the White House.

With France and Holland under German occupation, they might have been able to take and keep Indochina and the Dutch East Indies without bringing in the US and GB. As I see it, could they have found a way to keep the US out of the Pacific war. Maybe negotiated for the Philippines by aiding the war against Germany. Or perhaps an attack on the soviets would not have provoked the US.

The Japanese at the time felt that they had to attack the United States, as they thought it would only be a matter of time before the US joined war (and they were probably right; the US was looking for an excuse to declare war on the Axis, Pearl Harbor provided it). It's unlikely the US or GB would just stand by and let DEI fall, and the US would never give the Philippines to the Japanese. As for the attack on the USSR, Japan would have to end the war with China if they are to be successful, and the oil embargo means their capacity for war was limited in any case.
 
I've always wondered if there was any consideration on part of the Japanese government to ally with the KMT as a bid to annex communist-held provinces in continental China. I know Hirohito wanted to revive the Anglo-Japanese alliance, but that was obviously impossible given the latter's imperialism in East Asia.
 
Instead of the usual "could Germany have won WWII?" thread, I thought maybe I'd give it a little twist and ask if Japan, under any circumstances, could have won.

Let's say, for example, Japan focuses entirely on the China campaign and after winning (presuming victory is possible), goes on to fight a two-front war with Germany against the Soviet Union. Would that have bought Japan more time or enough resources

The japanese had already decided that they lacked the resources to go to war against the USSR, after Khalkhin Gol. Could they have attacked again and delayed the soviet transfer of military units to the battle for Moscow? Ultimately I think that the soviets would have transferred those troops anyway and ceded territory for time, to the japanese. They had a lot of territory, and the japanese absolutely could not occupy much of it. By 1943 they could get it back.
 
I've always wondered if there was any consideration on part of the Japanese government to ally with the KMT as a bid to annex communist-held provinces in continental China. I know Hirohito wanted to revive the Anglo-Japanese alliance, but that was obviously impossible given the latter's imperialism in East Asia.

A China-Japan alliance was always going to be tricky. It might have been possible before 1931 - many in the KMT leadership had spent time in Japan. However, back then, China was still in the Warlord Era, and the Japanese leadership did not take a kind view to a united, nationalist China, which would be a threat to its own ambitions in the region.

The Mukden Incident made any alliance impossible. The imperialist military cabal which came to control Japan after 1931 viewed China as a future colony, not a potential ally. The KMT for their part would demand at least the return of Manchuria, or the alliance would be a political suicide for them.
 
I wasn't aware Japan put so much effort into the China campaign (post-1941.)

It's kind of a Catch-22, I think, insofar as a Sino-Japanese alliance. I don't think Japan could have been successful unless they had the Manchurian resource base, but if they take that then they presumably eliminate all chances of gaining an alliance with the Chinese.

WOPR was right; the only winning move is not to play.
 
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