Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
My point 4 was - instead of the contact just fading you get the option of spending more money to keep the contact going. Just another way of parting a civ from their gold 
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Could this be added to AND?
- Thread starter xcrissxcrossx
- Start date
soup567
MANBEARPIG
My point 4 was - instead of the contact just fading you get the option of spending more money to keep the contact going. Just another way of parting a civ from their gold
Would the gold go to the other civ, or just disappear?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Basically it disappears since it is expenses on buildings, people and other stuff.
soup567
MANBEARPIG
Killtech
Discutator
so embassies should cost now, huh?
ok, so let us get more specific. so my first approach to this would be:
1. embassies in neighbor civs (shared borders) cost nothing.
2. cost of embassies with only trade connection costs upkeep that depends on distance of capitals (easiest way to implement i guess)
3. if no trade connection exists the upkeep is doubled or even worse!
furthermore embassies should work one way - so each side need an own embassy, however one embassy is enough to keep the contact alive. withdrawing your ambassador for another civ should have no changes on relation but expelling the ambassador of another civ still should (but temporarly). allowing an ambassador in however should improve the diplomatic relations for as long as the embassy exists.
btw shouldn't an embassy reveal the others civs capital? just like sufficient EPs do... and since it should cost maintenance it would be just fair don't you think?
ok, so let us get more specific. so my first approach to this would be:
1. embassies in neighbor civs (shared borders) cost nothing.
2. cost of embassies with only trade connection costs upkeep that depends on distance of capitals (easiest way to implement i guess)
3. if no trade connection exists the upkeep is doubled or even worse!
furthermore embassies should work one way - so each side need an own embassy, however one embassy is enough to keep the contact alive. withdrawing your ambassador for another civ should have no changes on relation but expelling the ambassador of another civ still should (but temporarly). allowing an ambassador in however should improve the diplomatic relations for as long as the embassy exists.
btw shouldn't an embassy reveal the others civs capital? just like sufficient EPs do... and since it should cost maintenance it would be just fair don't you think?
os79
Deity
Additionally, I request this and is still waiting on Afforess to add this tag. I requested that there be a tag scaled to Game Speeds that will modify units' movement points.
To summarize my proposal:
The slower a game speed is, the slower your units can move on the map.
With the features discussed so far here, my tag would reduce fast civ contacting to more sensible pace.
To summarize my proposal:
The slower a game speed is, the slower your units can move on the map.
With the features discussed so far here, my tag would reduce fast civ contacting to more sensible pace.
Afforess
The White Wizard
Actually, the tag's been in the SDK since 1.6x. I just have never gotten around to using it.
Alorente
Warlord
Afforess, before instituting these changes, please consider this alternate system:
Until the advent of flight, diplomacy was a very complicated and time consuming matter. In the 1700 and 1800's, diplomatic treaties, declaration of war, etc between different continents (ie America and Europe) took up to 3 months to execute because of slow ocean travel.
I propose the following:
1) Create a new unit: Diplomat. This unit can only be created in your capital. It will be similar to the Missionary. The unit will execute only one mission and will be expended at the conclusion of it.
2) A Diplomat must be sent to the other Civ's capital for the Diplomacy screen to open. When it does, and for that turn only, you can negotiate tech transfers, establish embassies, open border agreements, declare war or any other diplomatic action. The diplomat can travel by foot or by ship just like a missionary. All agreements established will remain in effect for a specific period (maybe 50 turns in marathon speed). In order to extend the agreements, one of the two civs must send another Diplomat to the other civ's capital, at which point the 50 turn count will restart.
3) A Diplomat cannot be destroyed during its travel (Diplomatic Immmunity). If destroyed, that civ will pay a steep unhappiness price similar to defying an Apostolic Palace resolution.
3) The Diplomat will not be necessary after both capitals build an airport. From that point on, diplomacy with other civs will be handled in the same way as we do now.
It never made sense to me that in ancient or medieval eras, you can contact any civ instantly with a push of a button.
I think this system, aside from being a lot of fun, will simulate earlier era diplomacy quite accurately. It will also end the repetitive and annoying contacts from other civs asking you to start a war with another civ, etc. In addition, it will accomplish what we were looking for. Slower contact between civilizations.
What do you think? Is it doable?
Until the advent of flight, diplomacy was a very complicated and time consuming matter. In the 1700 and 1800's, diplomatic treaties, declaration of war, etc between different continents (ie America and Europe) took up to 3 months to execute because of slow ocean travel.
I propose the following:
1) Create a new unit: Diplomat. This unit can only be created in your capital. It will be similar to the Missionary. The unit will execute only one mission and will be expended at the conclusion of it.
2) A Diplomat must be sent to the other Civ's capital for the Diplomacy screen to open. When it does, and for that turn only, you can negotiate tech transfers, establish embassies, open border agreements, declare war or any other diplomatic action. The diplomat can travel by foot or by ship just like a missionary. All agreements established will remain in effect for a specific period (maybe 50 turns in marathon speed). In order to extend the agreements, one of the two civs must send another Diplomat to the other civ's capital, at which point the 50 turn count will restart.
3) A Diplomat cannot be destroyed during its travel (Diplomatic Immmunity). If destroyed, that civ will pay a steep unhappiness price similar to defying an Apostolic Palace resolution.
3) The Diplomat will not be necessary after both capitals build an airport. From that point on, diplomacy with other civs will be handled in the same way as we do now.
It never made sense to me that in ancient or medieval eras, you can contact any civ instantly with a push of a button.
I think this system, aside from being a lot of fun, will simulate earlier era diplomacy quite accurately. It will also end the repetitive and annoying contacts from other civs asking you to start a war with another civ, etc. In addition, it will accomplish what we were looking for. Slower contact between civilizations.
What do you think? Is it doable?
Alorente
Warlord
An alternative to step 2 above would be:
2) A Diplomat must be sent to the other Civ's capital for the Diplomacy screen to open. When it does, and for that turn only, you can negotiate tech transfers, establish embassies, open border agreements, declare war or any other diplomatic action. The diplomat can travel by foot or by ship just like a missionary. Any agreements reached during that meeting will remain in effect until another Diplomat from either nation is sen to the other civ's capital to cancel or change the agreements.
Maybe this alternate method would be more realistic while being simpler too.
The main point of this new diplomatic system is, no more clicking for instant communication with ANY civ until both have airports in their capital. If an airport is destroyed, you are back to having to send a diplomat by ship etc. until it is rebuilt. An alternative to airports could be when both civilizations research telegraph, but I like the airports better because treaties, declarations of war, etc have always taken place in face to face communications and they still do.
2) A Diplomat must be sent to the other Civ's capital for the Diplomacy screen to open. When it does, and for that turn only, you can negotiate tech transfers, establish embassies, open border agreements, declare war or any other diplomatic action. The diplomat can travel by foot or by ship just like a missionary. Any agreements reached during that meeting will remain in effect until another Diplomat from either nation is sen to the other civ's capital to cancel or change the agreements.
Maybe this alternate method would be more realistic while being simpler too.
The main point of this new diplomatic system is, no more clicking for instant communication with ANY civ until both have airports in their capital. If an airport is destroyed, you are back to having to send a diplomat by ship etc. until it is rebuilt. An alternative to airports could be when both civilizations research telegraph, but I like the airports better because treaties, declarations of war, etc have always taken place in face to face communications and they still do.
Killtech
Discutator
@Alorente
sorry but i suppose most players won't like your proposal arguing it'll make diplomacy too complicated - especially on big maps with many civs (on a big map with 30 civs you'd need as many diplomats just to say hallo and you'd need to move them all manually... that'd be very nasty). despite that i guess it'll be hard to teach the AI how to use diplomats correctly.
sorry but i suppose most players won't like your proposal arguing it'll make diplomacy too complicated - especially on big maps with many civs (on a big map with 30 civs you'd need as many diplomats just to say hallo and you'd need to move them all manually... that'd be very nasty). despite that i guess it'll be hard to teach the AI how to use diplomats correctly.
Alorente
Warlord
1) That's the whole point. Diplomacy was very complicated during those days. This would be a closer approximation of the actual procedure involved.
2) You don't need diplomacy with all the civs. You would pick the ones that would bring you more results. The small fry are mostly an annoyance anyway, constantly contacting you for favors while never having anything interesting to offer.
As a matter of fact, if you institute your good plan of charging for embassies, I doubt you would establish many of them. You would probably pick and choose depending on how powerful the civ is and how far it is located on the map. I like this idea a lot.
Anyway, sorry you don't like it.
Afforess
The White Wizard
Do-able, yes. One change though, once you have an embassy established, you don't need the diplomat to contact the other civilization. It makes Embassies much much more useful. Also, I think there should be a national project, the telegram network, that allows instant diplomatic contact with all other civilizations with it. (Instead of the Airport)
Embassies, see above. I can program unit AI! I actually coded the Inquisitions mod.
Alorente
Warlord
@Afforess
So what you are saying is, use the diplomat unit for the initial contact and until an Embassy is established by your side. The other civ will do the same since embassies will be one sided. Together with maintenance costs for embassies I think it could work well. It's a good compromise. Certainly better than what we have now. The national project will also work well as long as it is not available to soon. Maybe when you research Telegraph.
So what you are saying is, use the diplomat unit for the initial contact and until an Embassy is established by your side. The other civ will do the same since embassies will be one sided. Together with maintenance costs for embassies I think it could work well. It's a good compromise. Certainly better than what we have now. The national project will also work well as long as it is not available to soon. Maybe when you research Telegraph.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I was worried there for a moment, I thought you would not be able to stop wars. Since contact requires an embassy and when at war you loose that embassy so you can't talk to them.
xcrissxcrossx
Prince
I really like where this is going.
Killtech
Discutator
I was worried there for a moment, I thought you would not be able to stop wars. Since contact requires an embassy and when at war you loose that embassy so you can't talk to them.
wait a moment. very good question. how to end a war?
if i understand correctly you are only able to do this with a diplomat in the early game, right? and diplomats cannot be attacked without penalty? so it's the perfect unit for spying enemy troop movements - much better than spies it seems. and what if i can't find the enemies capital i can't make peace?
this seems wrong to me. and it is historically incorrect to enforce sending diplomats to enemy capital because many peace treaties were forged on neutral ground between the front lines. e.g roman-goth peace talks of 369 on the danube river (which was the border of both empires). also it must be considered that many early armies were directly lead by their civs ruler so i think it is convenient to give military units the ability to enable diplomatic contact.
Afforess
The White Wizard
I don't like the idea of a diplomat unit. Sounds like an easy spy and extra tedium. Instead, you could just issue a "send diplomat" command from the scoreboard or foreign advisor, and in a few turns (depending on distance and gamespeed) the contact screen would arrive.
xcrissxcrossx
Prince
I definitely agree with this.
Killtech
Discutator
i'd argue that sending a unit towards another civ to establish visual contact (so you can start diplomacy) is enough sending and certainly enough delay on diplomacy. usually this will mean you won't be able to contact distant civs on purpose early on. and even if a trade connection is established (e.g via discovering sailing - cost trade route) you'll still need to 'rediscover' the civ to establish contact permanently (because the contact will most likely have faded due to lost of visual contact).
my point is just that a click-delay (no instant action after you clicked on someone on the scoreboard) is not gamer friendly. if must be than i'd prefer a fee - but only for diplomacy with civs beyond your visual range and without embassy (only trade connection exists). but only as long a certain tech isn't discovered or a specific national wonder build (courier system?).
Alorente
Warlord
Good option. It accomplishes the same results without the micromanagement. Good idea.
Regarding ending wars, historically wars end with a signed treaty by the generals right on the battlefield. I suggest having a button appear when at war, that can be pressed to end it.
Also, when you the diplomat "arrives" in the capital, a pop up should open asking you if you would like to build an embassy. It should note what the actual maintenance cost will be. and maybe underneath something like: The embassy will allow instant communication with this Civ.
