Could this be added to AND?

[os79]

I believe in MOO1, you lost diplomatic contact if a race was no longer within your range. I like that idea too.

Don't want to come off like an angry activist but have to say this:

What race? Who are competing? Oh! You mean different civs? Maybe you meant ethnic groups?

My point: Please don't use the word "race" to describe a different group of humans because 1) biologically erroneous and 2) socially offensive.

Back to smiling time . I just want to get this off my chest. However, if I did misunderstand you and you were in actual fact talking about a competition, then go ahead and answer the first question and forget the rest of the post .

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

Ok, an even better idea. Instead of an XML flag, as well as actual unit movement value, also have a maximum movement value. This value would indicate the maximum movement value of a space the unit is allowed to move into.

eg: Scout is actual movement value of 1 and maximum movement vale of 1.
Worker is actual movement value of 1 and maximum movement value of (say) 2.

This means the scout can never enter a forest. A worker CAN enter a forest but there is only a 1/2 chance of success each attempt. A worker can not enter anything that has a space movement above (say) 2.

Adding this simple variable may allow great flexiblity with promotion and tech advances for units.

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

Don't want to come off like an angry activist but have to say this:

What race? Who are competing? Oh! You mean different civs? Maybe you meant ethnic groups?

My point: Please don't use the word "race" to describe a different group of humans because 1) biologically erroneous and 2) socially offensive.

Back to smiling time . I just want to get this off my chest. However, if I did misunderstand you and you were in actual fact talking about a competition, then go ahead and answer the first question and forget the rest of the post .

MOO 1 is Mater Of Orion 1. It is a classic space game with different alien RACES so I believe the term "race" is correct here.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yes it is. And this lost contact was also in Master of Orion II and III.

A bit touchy os79 about "race" are we?

JosEPh

 

[Killtech]

wait. so following your idea units that have one movement point will not be able to move over most forests (this are most of the units btw)? could be a bit nasty on maps with large woods on the start. my last game every tile around my starting city had a forest. so would only be able to move out my scout and worker units out of the city. lol, that reminds me on Age of Empires. there was a map with impassible woods everywhere you had to cut down first.

having a pass chance is somewhat problematical. as it cannot be applied for the hold-right-mouse-button to see how many turns the unit needs to arrive at the tile. i think this slowed down movement (impassible woods for units with 1 movement) can only work if it's applied to units that are far enough from your cultural borders - so lets say max 4 tiles away.

 

[Afforess]

Ok, an even better idea. Instead of an XML flag, as well as actual unit movement value, also have a maximum movement value. This value would indicate the maximum movement value of a space the unit is allowed to move into.

eg: Scout is actual movement value of 1 and maximum movement vale of 1.
Worker is actual movement value of 1 and maximum movement value of (say) 2.

This means the scout can never enter a forest. A worker CAN enter a forest but there is only a 1/2 chance of success each attempt. A worker can not enter anything that has a space movement above (say) 2.

Adding this simple variable may allow great flexiblity with promotion and tech advances for units.

Hmm. If a Promotion increases a units movement, does the maximum movement increase too?

 

[os79]

MOO 1 is Mater Of Orion 1. It is a classic space game with different alien RACES so I believe the term "race" is correct here.

Crap, I misunderstood. Sorry .

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

Hmm. If a Promotion increases a units movement, does the maximum movement increase too?

The wonderful thing about having two separate variables is that they don't have to both increase at the same time. It is possible for the max to even be below the actual. If, for instance, a unit has actual=2 and max=1, then the unit can move 2 tiles on each turn, but both tiles must only have a requirement of 1 movement point each. This will allow great flexability (as I've said) in designing and promoting units. Do you want to give more general movement, or give the unit ability to enter into more types of tiles? The choice may be yours.

As regards the enter tile chance, if that is implemented, it may always apply in some measure I think, even if the actual amd max values are the same. For instance, if a unit has actual movement of 2, and max of 2 (allowed to enter forests), the unit may first move into a 1 movement square. If it then wants to enter a forest, it can only attempt to that turn, the chance of success being the actual movement remaining divided by the movement required by the forest. If it fails that turn, the next turn the unit can move in normally, using all its movement points in doing so.

 

[Afforess]

The wonderful thing about having two separate variables is that they don't have to both increase at the same time. It is possible for the max to even be below the actual. If, for instance, a unit has actual=2 and max=1, then the unit can move 2 tiles on each turn, but both tiles must only have a requirement of 1 movement point each. This will allow great flexability (as I've said) in designing and promoting units. Do you want to give more general movement, or give the unit ability to enter into more types of tiles? The choice may be yours.

As regards the enter tile chance, if that is implemented, it may always apply in some measure I think, even if the actual amd max values are the same. For instance, if a unit has actual movement of 2, and max of 2 (allowed to enter forests), the unit may first move into a 1 movement square. If it then wants to enter a forest, it can only attempt to that turn, the chance of success being the actual movement remaining divided by the movement required by the forest. If it fails that turn, the next turn the unit can move in normally, using all its movement points in doing so.

Okay, that sounds fine. I can do that fairly easily.

Now, if there was a forested tile that had a road built on it, would a unit with a maximum movement of 1 be able to move over it?

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

Since the movement required by a forest is divided by 3 if it has a road (is that right? is the result rounded up or down?) then YES.

Somewhere around the forums is a MOD that has progressive upgrades for roads, starting with paths. Each road upgrade provides increased movement, so you don't intitally get the 3x benefit. Maybe that's worth looking into.

 

[Afforess]

Somewhere around the forums is a MOD that has progressive upgrades for roads, starting with paths. Each road upgrade provides increased movement, so you don't intitally get the 3x benefit. Maybe that's worth looking into.

You mean Rise of Mankind?

In Rise of Mankind, cart paths are the first road, and they don't boost movement at all, only connect resources. Roads halve movement, Paved Roads, 1/3 movement, etc...

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

Yes, that sounds good.

 

[patrioticparado]

This means the scout can never enter a forest. A worker CAN enter a forest but there is only a 1/2 chance of success each attempt. A worker can not enter anything that has a space movement above (say) 2.

I have to say at first impression this is a huge turn off. The time scale we are dealing with (especially in early game) is years. I have a hard time believing that a group of warriors or a scout cannot, in a span of months or years (1 turn) traverse even a very dense forest. Jungles maybe, but I still think that given that much time they would be able to make it.
Perhaps though adding a chance of taking damage when entering forest or jungle? Not a huge amount of damage, maybe .3, but enough to make you think about fortifying the unit for a few turns. This would serve to not only slow expansion, but also invoke the impression of dangerous travel.
Another idea I had is to apply a maintenance cost related with the distance from your nearest cultural border to simulate the cost of funding the exploration. I can't give a number here, since I don't have that solid a grasp on the underlying mechanics, but it would have to be small enough to allow for close exploration, and large enough to discourage just sending a unit on a beeline around the globe. Also it should be smaller for naval vessels, maybe half or a third the cost per distance

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

I'm thinking of other ideas too. That percentage value could be a chance or portion of health that is damgaed when making movement bigger than the unit is capable of. But stopping to fortify and heal could be fiddly, game play wise.

Another possiblity is for the computer to sinply calculate the number of turns it will take to enter a tile. For instance, if your unit has a movenet of 1, entering a forest tile requiring movement 2 will take two turns.

Another way of slowing exploration down is something akin to Settlers. Under this idea, no unit can venture into unexplored territory (it is impassable) unless that unit is an explorer specialist (a new XML flag). I don't know if unexplored tiles can be given a movement value to slow explorers down which would work if using previous paragraph movement system. you could then add (say) +3 movement to unexplored tiles. However, because visibility makes tiles around units unexplored, whci would appear to undermine the whole idea, you could give early units ZERO VISIBILTY. So they only see the spot they are on.

Yet another intersting idea would be to have a tile EXIT movement cost as well as an entering cost. For instance, it takes 3 movement to scale up a mountain but only 1 to come down. That would probably mean rescaling the the movement of just about every unit however.

But I'm repeating myself. I also mentioned these ideas in this other thread, where these ideas first started.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9204414

 

[Killtech]

'supply mod' idea: in the early game each city has a supply radius. units simply cannot leave this radius. point. the AI can't do anything wrong since it can't move out of the radius either. radius rises with tech until limited supply radius is completely removed at the end of the classic.

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

It would make it rather difficult to build early cities if you can't move out of the radius of the original one.

I think the idea to slow down early exploration is the KISS principle - to keep things as simple as possible. I posted a number of ideas but I think only one needs to be implemented - real movement. Basically, it means that if you want to move your movement into a 2 movement tile, and your unit is only capable of 1, then it takes 2 turns. If you want to move into a 3 movement tile, and your unit is only capable of 2, then it takes 1 and a half turns and so on. If this can't be implemented, then using a percentage possiblity of succeeding in movement could be used. I think either of these would be enough to slow down exploration. I don't think we would need any of the other things I originally mentioned.

It might be fun to add XML variables for some of those things I mentioned though just for others mod creators to play around with and see what they make of them. These could include:

For units:
iMaxMovementAllowedToEnterTile
iUnexploredTileMovementPenatly (for Scouts this could be 0, for other units it could be quite high, making it nigh on impossbile for them to explore)

For tiles:
iAdjacentExitMovementCost
iDiagonalExitMovementCost (also, there could be a default diagonal movement cost multiplier - say 1.5)
bIgnoreExitMovementCostForSameTile - This is about, for instance following a river. To climb out of a river would cost extra, but to follow a river would have no penalty, if this is set to true.

 

[Killtech]

It would make it rather difficult to build early cities if you can't move out of the radius of the original one.

not if the radius is set to 10. you never build cities further then that in the ancient age. otherwise revolutions and maintenance will simply kill you if you place your second city further away. and yet the 10 tile radius do not allow a deep exploration to find all the civs in your area. judging from my experience this limit should work just fine (only scouts move out further then that).

 

[Arakhor]

Talking about the "races" in Master of Orion, they use the usual fantasy motif of being referring to as races throughout, but they are all separate species of course

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

Yikes! I just looked at the scout unit XML and I couldn't believe what I saw - the scout has 2 movement points. Change it to 1. Simplest change ever!

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

There's another variable I've noticed - bNoRevealMapb. Just tried it. It stops a unit from exploring the unknown world! That might be handy. Perhaps early units such as warrior, settler, and worker need this limitation. I'm also looking for the variable that controls how far a unit can see. What if some early units could only see their own square?