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Creating and Using Leaders

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by SirPleb, Aug 15, 2003.

  1. Norlamand

    Norlamand Procrastinator Rex

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    Another great write up! I can't wait to get home and start a new game to see if I have a green-thumb for leader farming!
     
  2. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Some notes that weren't mentioned...

    Only land-based military units can generate leaders. Not ships, not aircraft, not artillery, not non-combat units.

    The most important factor in getting Leaders is NEVER WASTE AN ELITE. NEVER send an elite into an attack where it won't have an overwhelming advantage. Every elite that you lose means 4 or 8 chances for Leaders lost in getting another veteran to promote. Hear that? Two lost elite units, and you've effectively lost one Leader.

    If you already have a Leader that you are saving, simply do not attack with any more elite units at all. Use only veterans, since every enemy unit presents a chance to upgrade to another elite.

    Elite* units that can't be upgraded (cavalry, mech inf, armors) are great candidates to load into armies.

    When you are setting up defensive positions to end your turn, leave elite units unfortified and covered by fortified veterans. A fortified healthy elite will be selected as the defender before a fortified healthy veteran (of the same defensive value), but a fortified vet will be selected as the defender ahead of an unfortified elite. You don't want your elite units vulnerable on defense, and letting veterans absorb two attacks for auto-promotion is an excellent way to get elites (two enemy units to get a promotion instead of 4 or 8.)


    The exact unit promotion chances are:

    Conscript->Regular: 1/2 for non-militaristic, 1/1 (every time) for militaristic
    Regular->Veteran: 1/4 (non-mil) and 1/2 (mil)
    Veteran->Elite: 1/8 (non-mil) and 1/4 (mil)

    All those chances are halved against barbarians. Multiple victories in one turn is still an automatic promotion against barbs.
     
  3. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Good point, I was just going to mention that. The only slightly annoying thing is the elite* that generated that leader can't join the army that turn.

    I always join elites* and veterans into armies, never elites that haven't generated a leader yet (like I've seen one person recommend). The veterans inside the army can still get promoted to elites.
     
  4. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    I always do exactly the same thing. Loading elites who haven't generated a leader into an army is just a waste, IMHO.
     
  5. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I'd like to add my experiences from my last game as they apply to leader creation. I played India on a standard monarch level map. As India I was peaceful for most of the first age. The only units I built were horsemen. I built walls in my towns and had a failry dense build. By the time I reached Chivalry, I had about 20 horseman that I upgraded to War Elephnats and 7 or 8 catapults. The War Elephants were all veteran, having been built in barracks.

    About this time, my neighbors the mongols came spoiling for a fight. They didnt have Chiavlry or the Mongol UU yet. They attacked into my lands with Longbows, Med Med inf, Pikes and swords. Either I was real good or real lucky, but I hardly lost a battle as my Elephants pounded them into the dirt. Before long, half of my elephant force was elite, and I had 4 or 5 leaders.

    I think the moral is that knight class units have the first best chance of making leaders beacuase of their relative power and speed. Also, it might help if the wars are fought on your lands initially because you have greater movement ability and chance of retreat to survive.
     
  6. Svar

    Svar Chieftain

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    I'm the one who has recommended loading elites into armies that haven't generated leaders but I only do it with MA when I have lots of them because you can make an elite MA in a single turn. In fact I think I have had a veteran MA go from veteran to elite and generate a leader all in a single turn. The reason for the elite MA army is to defeat fotrtifed MI without losing any MA. Losing units raises your WW and I have rarely ever lost an elite MA army so it keeps your WW down.
     
  7. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    T-hawk, thanks for the additional info! It is good to know the exact odds on promotions, I didn't know them before now.
     
  8. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    In this thread has been a discussion about the preferred defending unit of a mixed stack. The suggested rules and fomulas might help deciding whether to fortify the elite unit(s) or not. If the elite will defend anyway, it's of course better to have the fortify bonus (plus there's hope for a GL at 1:32 respectively 1:24 odds then).



    :hmm:
    You mean that's practically so, because movement is used up?
    I thought I had occasionally joined a fresh cav* with 2mp left to the created army (out of that same cav*) and even attacked with the army in the same turn.
     
  9. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Yes Grille, you're right for fast units. I was thinking of my infantry variant. Only used musketmen,riflemen, and infantry in that game. Generated 78 leaders and had 40 active armies.
     
  10. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    78 GLs... :eek:
    I will have this number on my mind next time when the RNG denies me a GL (that's where the luck went to...)

    Seriously, I'd guess this high number would probably mean that you came very close to 78*12 elite victories.

    But for the time being, I hide in a bunker. :D
     
  11. moni

    moni Chieftain

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    SirPleb, how do you think the new Science Great Leaders in Conquests will affect Leader farming? Aside from the fact that Germans become very good at it...
     
  12. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    Sorry Moni, I don't know, I know little about Conquests yet.
     
  13. sorky

    sorky Chieftain

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    hi :à)

    Thx for nice advice for creating those leaders. It sounded good so I try it and have a lot more leaders =à)

    I want to add something, a contrepoint. I keep elites attacks units obsolets a little time before they are too obsolete, usually 2 upgrades for them in one "shot" (if IA are in the same tech advance).
    But for elites defensives units i continue to upgrade them. The chances to have a leader when defending are too low for the risk to lose it vs contemporary attacks units. Near all leaders i have had come from attacking.

    (Gratz for your 78 leaders:cool: ;) )
     
  14. Lopex

    Lopex Why not?

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    Very interesting article. Definitely gave me some ideas to implement in future games.

    A minor statistical note could be that a long streak of elite wins without leaders does not raise the chance of producing a leader with the next elite win. After 79 no-leader wins the chance of producing a leader is still 1/16 whereas ex ante there is a chance of 1/170 of a run of 80.

    The point being that people should not expect a leader after a long run of failures.

    Wow, It took me a whole lot of words to make a minor point. Hopefully it makes sense. Will try to be more brief in the future....
     
  15. EMan

    EMan HOFer: Milk-Cow?

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    One area not to be underestimated in GL Farming is Barbarian battles.............a good way to promote your units to elite.

    An advantage vanilla CIV has over PTW is that barbarians adjacent to one of your units (Barbarian "Camp" sentries excluded) will attack you no matter what the odds!

    This fact is particularly useful at lower game levels (where barbarians are weaker)...........for example, your regular "exploring" early-game Warrior enters a GH and unleashes a horde of 3 barbarians.....under vanilla CIV, if your warrior survives the forthcoming barbarian attack, it is guaranteed to be an elite unit! ;)

    (Under PTW, the 2nd and/or 3rd barbarians may NOT attack!)

    Thanks for taking the time to write the GL article SirPleb.....Glad to see it made the War Academy. :goodjob: :goodjob:

    As always, your writing style is clear, concise and on-target.
     
  16. forged

    forged Chieftain

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    I would just give a small warning on this one. . .

    In GOTM 21, I tried this tactic. However, since I knew there was a lot more combat to be had that round and wanted to increase my chances of another leader, I used the leader immediately to rush the Forbidden Palace. Because I took over a lot of territory after the leader was generated and then used, the cost of the Forbidden Palace increased.

    My understanding (post-GOTM 21) is that the cost of the Forbidden Palace being dependent on your territory and population. If those go up, the cost for it will go up.

    The way a leader works for rushing improvements is it reduces the cost of an item to 1 shield at the time it is used. So if you change your mind and switch to something more costly or if the cost increases you will still need to produce those shields.

    It was very discouraging to find this out the hard way.

    So my recommendation if you are planning to do this option is to save the leader for the whole round and just accept that you will not produce additional leaders that turn.

    forged

    PS. Great article and comments. Thanks for the posts! :)
    PPS. And yes, I'm still slightly bitter about finding it out the hard way. ;)
     
  17. EMan

    EMan HOFer: Milk-Cow?

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    That's interesting news about the Forbidden Palace.........however, if you're building ANY other Wonder, presumably the price in shields is fixed.........so there's no reason to forgo the chance of getting another Leader by waiting until the end of the turn?
    (Since you can only have ONE GL at a time.)
     
  18. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    forged,
    you're sure you rushed the Forbidden Palace and not the Palace?
    I thought FP cost is fixed in an unmodded game (maybe that GOTM had some tweak here??).

    Anyways, pdescobar has posted a formula which helps to overlook the Palace cost:
    It's here.
    You can figure how many cities you could still capture/build until the next 100-shield increment kicks in. If you'd expect an increment in that turn, avoid elite attacks until Palace cost rised up, then rush the Palace and try to harvest the next GL.
     
  19. forged

    forged Chieftain

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    EMan, you are right about the other wonders (as far as I know).



    Thanks for the link. As far as the rest goes ... DOH!

    I just reread spoiler 3 for GOTM 21 (which is where I posted my recounting of the events). It was the Palace. :wallbash:

    It was pointed out to me the culture differences between a Palace and a Forbidden Palace. (The latter is worth more culturally.) After having it for a 1000 years, the culture rating doubles. So I decided in that game to build the forbidden palace early and move the palace later. Well ... I tried moving it with a leader to bad results. (Ultimately, I still won the game though.)

    forged
     
  20. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    Welcome to CivFanatics Lopex! It was an honor to see your first CivFanatics post here.

    And EMan, thanks!
     

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