Creation vs Evolution

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
What you wont dignify the parts where I clearly explain where evolutionary biology has helped us? Okay. That's just as well.

You mean this part?

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
The effing monkeys are window dressing. The human evolution archeologists/paleontologists get a pretty small part of funding, much less than goes to other science or to churches for that matter.

Don't be afraid of evolution. No one is trying to be snobby to you. Although you seem to be pretty good at the snappy comebacks...

How does that explain anything helpful?

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Why don't you call up any hundred scientists from the space program and ask them whether evolutionary biology is a valid science or not.

So opinion polls are now scientific?

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
You can not choose to disregard part of science just because it interferes with your religious belief, and then claim to be yourself in anyway useful to the cause of science. Topple evolution, and the space program goes with it.

Obvious proof that you haven't read a word I posted. When was the last time I used a Bible verse to contradict something you or any other pro-evo poster said? All I've done is point out that the methods used by ToE researchers are questionable at best, and outright dishonest the rest of the time. How is acting as a media whistle-blower pointing out the naughty stuff that goes unchecked bad? If anything, I am a champion of the Scientific Method, in that I'm pointing out that evos never use it, and no one ever holds them accountable for it.

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
You would have us living in the Taliban style state, I guess.

Thank you for not responding further.

Thank you so much for validating everything I just said about pro-evos at the bottom of page 6! Really, it's just too kind of you to provide me with such near-instantaneous validation like that.

Please respond at length, as I look forward to having yet more validation laid at my feet like an offering to a primitive god's statue.

 

[gugalpm]

God and science can live together? Maybe yes, but I don't think so.
Evolution is a serious fact and we're the results of it.
But, well, duh, I believe that a superpowerful someone created everything and that's it, even there's no rational explanation of it.
I'm do believe there's some guy, but believe that he created everything approximates to foolishness.

 

[andrewgprv]

I don't believe in God. There is no basis for his existence except for dogma and wishy washy feelings that are easy to controll and manipulate.

The best explanation I have been given thus far is evolution so that is what I will believe, untill a better explantation is given. And the belief in creation is far from that.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Fearless Leader 2,

Let me put your comments in perspective:

:mutant:
:jump: :rant:

:santa:
:fish:


I have never tried to write anything like that before. I hope you like it.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I am especially fond of the Santa Claus -Viking line. I think it says something about the dangerous power of belief in the hands of primitive thinkers...

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Ladies and gentlemen, The Bloody Vikings...

 

[Perfection]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
Obvious proof that you haven't read a word I posted. When was the last time I used a Bible verse to contradict something you or any other pro-evo poster said? All I've done is point out that the methods used by ToE researchers are questionable at best, and outright dishonest the rest of the time. How is acting as a media whistle-blower pointing out the naughty stuff that goes unchecked bad? If anything, I am a champion of the Scientific Method, in that I'm pointing out that evos never use it, and no one ever holds them accountable for it.

Okay so your saying that since they make money on the principles that drive this that they are hypocrits?

If I write a book about physics and made money off of it does that make the arguements in my book invalid?

They ask fo money because they believe it has potential to help people, there are many other drives for research than just greed. Your painting a really degrading picture of evolutionists here, instead of attacking the theory itself you are attacking people who believe in that theory with accusations that they are only doing it for personel gain. If you have any ACTUAL evidence than post here but if your just going to insult people on the other side than noone will listen to your posts and you are justing wasting our time.

 

[onejayhawk]

What is a scientist? There has been considerable vitrol spewed over which side has the better science. Both sides acuse the other of beginning with a conclusion and arguing backward. Both are right on that point. The bottom line is that there is scientific evidence on BOTH sides of the question. The only people that think there is enough on either side to be decisive are the ones that have already closed their minds.

Look at some of the commentary. "Sure there are holes in Evolution theory. Its to be expected, it is just a theory after all." "Sure Creationism requires an active diety. That's what faith is for." These are the same argument given from both sides of the debate.

Either you start with God, or you start with No God. That assumption, based on faith (and assuming there is No God is also a faith) is decisive in this matter. There is sufficient evidence to support faith of either kind, but not enough to convert the faithfull of the opposite camp. It is not anaccidentthat the Bible says that its words are foolishness to the unbeliever. This discussion proves it.

J

 

[andrewgprv]

Originally posted by onejayhawk
The bottom line is that there is scientific evidence on BOTH sides of the question. The only people that think there is enough on either side to be decisive are the ones that have already closed their minds.

J

Give me some shred of evidence proving God exists or Creationism is True????

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Originally posted by andrewgprv

Give me some shred of evidence proving God exists or Creationism is True????

Haven't you paid attention? God exists and creationism are true because:

1. People who believe in evolution are snobby.

2. Most useful science comes from the space program.

3. :santa:

What more proof that you need? Would natural selection really let people who argue like this survive?

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
What more proof that you need? Would natural selection really let people who argue like this survive?

Sure. If presented with undeniable evidence they'd simply shoot down the opponent, hence they'll survive.

 

[andrewgprv]

That's a good one Hitro

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by andrewgprv
Give me some shred of evidence proving God exists or Creationism is True????

Sure. Go back a few pages and read Fealessleader's posts. He covers the basics. To me one argument that makes sense is the "Quiet Room" theory. That's my name for it BTW. Why are there no neighbors close enough to hear.

What happens once, frequently happens repeatedly in a very large sample. So, if there is intelligent life here, why not a few million years ago some where in the vastness of the galaxy. If there was, they would be here by the simple action of growing and spreading. The fact that there are none can be taken as a sign that intelligent life is unique to this planet. That in turn gives evidence to the premise that life was intentionally started here.

You wanted a shred. There it is.

The assumption that No God exists is prominent, even dominant in the media and public education, but that does not make it any less of an assumption. Science is all about spotting and evaluating assumptions. This one is pretty obvious. If you agree with the assumption that there is NO God, the FL's posts will seem like nonsense. If you allow the presumtion of a creator, the evidence lines up just as well and the gaps are no larger.

The nature of your post indicates that you approach the subject with a closed mind. I am not saying that opening your mind to the possibility will end up convincing you, but you should at least accept that there is an internal logic to the argument.

J

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Originally posted by onejayhawk

Sure. Go back a few pages and read Fealessleader's posts. He covers the basics.

I think it is a she?

Originally posted by onejayhawk

The assumption that No God exists is prominent, even dominant in the media and public education, but that does not make it any less of an assumption.

You mean that public education where we say "one nation under God" every day? The media that gave us "Oh God", "Touched By an Angel", "Highway to Heaven", "Wolf Blitzer Present Showdown Iraq"?
Look carefully before you attribute Godlessness to schools or media. There is plenty-o-God.

Originally posted by onejayhawk

The nature of your post indicates that you approach the subject with a closed mind. I am not saying that opening your mind to the possibility will end up convincing you, but you should at least accept that there is an internal logic to the argument.
J

Personally I believe in God but science works whether you believe in God or not. You can say there is no evidence at all or you can say that absolutely everything is evidence, which is what I feel when I look at the stars, walk in a woods, or eat cheese stuffed crust pizza. Regardless, science is based on observable facts, and God hasn't done too many overt moves since he burned the swastika off of the box the Ark of the Covenant was in in the bottom of that cargo ship. God and creationism are also two different things. God is laughing just as hard at the creationists as the atheists are.

 

[onejayhawk]

One of the things that Dogma got right is that God has a terrific sense of humor. Sometimes we never do get it, but someone later sees the joke.

With regard to Creationism/Evolution the problem is that ALL the evidence is equivocal. Plus there is very little of it. Our time base is microscopic for one thing.

J

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

oh J, not you too!

The evidence for Evolution is not equivocal. Even if you think Satan put all those fossils in the ground to trick us, you still have to see that genetic science thrives and evolution is the basis for understanding that.

Does Evolution rule out creation? No. But it doesn't require it for efficacy. Again I see "the creator" as the driving force in evolution, the force that convinced still molecules to start moving around, and eventually after billions of years, to reach sentience and someday soon, I hope, intellegence.

 

[The Troquelet]

Have yet to see FL2 bring an actual argument for creationism. So far, as per usual, he has just been muddying the waters and slinging filth at those intelligent enough to disagree with him.

 

[andrewgprv]

What I see so far for the debate for creationism is that if it's possable oh it must be true. Just because you can make up a scenario that would make sence for God to exist and creationism to exist doesn't mean that is proof. That is a Hypothisis I see plenty of Hypothiseas but no proof to support them. Where as just watch the disocvery channel for a week and you'll be overloaded with evidence for evolution.

I don't think there has been evidence to rule out God's existence but I don't think there has been any to prove his existence either. So if I were to say that my GI Joe Doll is really a God, can you really prove me wrong? Well if you can't prove me wrong I must be RIGHT!

I myself used to be very very religous untill I started asking myself questions and relying on logic rather then Good feelings. And I find that's the only defense Religon has (Good Feelings). The odd thing is if you look at those Good Feelings objectivly you can see that you have controll over those feelings, not God. Just watch a emotional movie and see how many Good Feelings you get. Does that mean that movie is from God?!

The World is a scary place and the belief in a Diety makes it alot less scary. Also I think people rather then wanting to do the work to solve their own problems or to choose what to do themselves can rely on Religon to do the work for them. Religon will tell them what is right and wrong so they never have to do the thinking themselves. Esentially they never really mature into an independent adult, in a way the Religon acts as the parent. They can remain an innocent child.

 

[col]

Originally posted by andrewgprv


Give me some shred of evidence proving God

I gave a lecture on Friday about the Cosmological Anthropic Principle. Look it up on the net - there are millions of sites. Half scientific, half deistic.

The creation/evolution debate is pretty much dead these days for most folks. The Strong and Weak Anthropic Principle is the new battleground.

To cut a long lecture short, the universe appears to have exactly the values that allow us to exist.

Therefore EITHER it was designed for us by a cosmic designer
OR there are a very large number of universes and this one won the lottery to have us in it.

Tough call - either way involves faith. There can be no proof.

I go for the second of the two alternatives. But thats a personal choice as an ex astrophysicst.

 

[Perfection]

I personelly bleieve in a very weak anthropic principle, that we exist in a universe because its one that will support us. Since other universe may not support us we gotta be in this one. So its kinda the cosmological roll of the dice for each universe to see if it can support intellignce and since we are only an occurance in "succesful" universes we must live in one.