Crime & Punishment

I did not think the captive message was two way, I thought I was only giving it to the player who captured the units not the player who lost them. As far as they are concerned they just lost them due to combat.
Not captive messages, the captive units themselves. Captives appearing with a hidden nationality unit after that unit has won a combat round are a dead giveaway as to the identity of that unit.
 
Not captive messages, the captive units themselves. Captives appearing with a hidden nationality unit after that unit has won a combat round are a dead giveaway as to the identity of that unit.

OK, nothing to do about that, the same happens when pirates capture units..... Or maybe I could have a hidden nationality version of the captive for such cases which upgrades to the non-hidden nationality version.... ugly as a general fix for all hidden nationality units....

@ls et al is it possible to have a special "hidden nationality promotion" or something that we can put on any unit captured by a hidden nationality unit but can easily be removed?
 
@ls et al is it possible to have a special "hidden nationality promotion" or something that we can put on any unit captured by a hidden nationality unit but can easily be removed?
I've always intended to do this. Kael has a whole tutorial centered on setting this up even. (Not sure where it's at though.)

Bit too personally distracted with the projects on the plate to tackle this one right now. But I agree with the sentiment.
 
OK, nothing to do about that, the same happens when pirates capture units..... Or maybe I could have a hidden nationality version of the captive for such cases which upgrades to the non-hidden nationality version.... ugly as a general fix for all hidden nationality units....

@ls et al is it possible to have a special "hidden nationality promotion" or something that we can put on any unit captured by a hidden nationality unit but can easily be removed?

If the captured worker is Hidden Nationality, it will be captured back or destroyed in the same turn! Like when you capture a Corsair almost anywhere, an enemy ship swoops in and destroys it before its first move.

Even if you gave the captured Worker a move that turn, it might not be enough for it to reach safety.

I agree that it's only fair for the AI to know whose Ambusher it was in these cases (ie. because it is obvious to the human player). You would expect there would be some diplo penalty then, which makes it little different from classic 'worker steal' with a visible unit by surprise DoW. But if there's no chance of getting the captured worker home, then the identity revelation point is moot, because who will be bothered capturing the workers in the first place?

Sorry that I have no solution, only problems at present...:)
 
If the captured worker is Hidden Nationality, it will be captured back or destroyed in the same turn! Like when you capture a Corsair almost anywhere, an enemy ship swoops in and destroys it before its first move.

Even if you gave the captured Worker a move that turn, it might not be enough for it to reach safety.

I agree that it's only fair for the AI to know whose Ambusher it was in these cases (ie. because it is obvious to the human player). You would expect there would be some diplo penalty then, which makes it little different from classic 'worker steal' with a visible unit by surprise DoW. But if there's no chance of getting the captured worker home, then the identity revelation point is moot, because who will be bothered capturing the workers in the first place?

Sorry that I have no solution, only problems at present...:)

Hmm... That's a point. Perhaps the answer is to make it so if an invisible unit captures a unit, that unit captured should also be made invisible? (At least if it stays on the same tile anyhow.)

And if a Hidden Nationality captures a Hidden Nationality, the captive is also given Hidden Nationality?
 
Could be done. A matter of a bit of follow up on the capture code I'd say. The unit that captured can be checked for those features then if either are true then assign that true feature to the captive, which he keeps as long as he remains on a plot with a unit with the same feature.

If your asking about the rationale, the captive would be in the care of an unknown nation, thus would be equally unknown as to what nation owns it.
 
@Thunderbrd et al:

I'm just making this a new tag entirely, so we can set whatever criteria we want to assigning it to existing and future units. It would be on the SVN already except for some technical errors I'm having with the new SVN platform.
 
Help, crime is out of control.

http://imgur.com/osTIQrf
http://imgur.com/zWcslvf

This is the direction that all of my cities are heading in. I have all of the crime reducing buildings available to me in those cities, and for the most part I avoid crime increasing buildings (exceptions are jewellery store, warehouse, trails and the auto built trading post which combined produce less crime than the town watch removes). My leader has the revolutionary trait but that only adds 3 crime. Am I supposed to have a huge army of watchmen in each of my cities?

Also I've had dogs check there were no rogues around so that's not the problem.

Even my most recent city, a lowly size 3 has over 350 crime :(

edit: Yep, army of watchmen is doing the trick, hooray economy un-exploding.
 
Am I supposed to have a huge army of watchmen in each of my cities?

Also I've had dogs check there were no rogues around so that's not the problem.

Even my most recent city, a lowly size 3 has over 350 crime :(

Depends what you call a huge army. My newest city doesn't need any yet, the others have from one to five and the capital has six. Try and get them 5XP at build, and give them two Policing promos. That should (ie. if it's working, and it probably is) give them -15 crime per turn.

How fast is the crime rising in your 350 city? If it's not too fast, just a couple of Watchmen - double-promoted - will get it back to 'normal' in a reasonable timeframe. Even if you need six for now, you can always delete them (or move them somewhere else) once crime is under control.
 
It's all sorted out now, the crime rate numbers are a little confusing. In the first screenshot the general property sources says +97/turn so it seemed like I'd need a lot more watchmen than are actually required.
 
How is crime adjusted turn-to-turn? I see significant fluctuations up & and down (i.e. more than 50 in either direction), when nothing has changed in the city (i.e. same police buildings, same number of watchmen, same size, etc.). What would account for these fluctuations? I just feel that I while I have an idea of how to fight crime, I still don't know how crime is calculated.
 
Crime seeks a stabilized level, But... for every action there is a reaction. Pop is assigned so much crime (currently iirc it's 5 per pop point). With no other influences (of which there are now many) the crime will climb to the "stabilization point" that x pop gives. Problem is that your cities are almost never stagnant or shrinking, so the "stabilization level" is constantly growing as the pop grows.

Now let's introduce some crime reducing objects (buildings/units/traits/etc.) As these units attempt to reduce the level of crime their impact creates a downward slide in the "stabilization level" that was/is created/affected by pop. The downward reaction if only a one time instance or a single factor (like a single TW) only exerts so much downward pressure. After the new influence has reached it's bottom the Crime function starts trying to reach a new "stabilization level". If you add 3 objects that reduce or increase crime the action and subsequent reaction can be more pronounced, But the mechanics will always seek the "stabilization level". You can pile on enough downward pressure to have Crime in the minus region but because of the 'stabilization level" mechanics it will, with no other influences, start to climb back to the Now calculated "stabilization level". And as influences are added in, both + or - Crime the mechanics seek the "SL".

The calculations are layered from simple + or - to then being %s. Koshling once "tried" to describe the formula. But as new things that affect crime keep getting added in it gets more convoluted and complex. Some of the latest additons was the New trait system.

If you can figure out the exact way to calculate it then you a very skilled in math analysis.

JosEPh
 
The games I've played where crime is out of control it seems that the Nomadic trait is the primary factor. Then, if combined with the Aggressive trait it gets really tough after 200 crime is reached.

@Joseph: That was a really good answer there. I don't think crime is out of place on traits but the severity which some bring is pretty rough. I'm looking for the trait tier structures to see how that's going to be handled there. And yes, I'm still working towards an eventual Complex Traits set. I think you might surprisingly like it but we'll see once its ready eh? ;)
 
Just some rough notes:-

The Bad People Mod (originally by Roger Bacon and recovered and updated by Platyping) has some interesting ideas. For best implementation in C2C we need two things before I would implement it.

1) Crime units that exist just as crime units throughout the game.
2) Most importantly units that are owned by someone but can't be controlled by them! (Note the Immigrant unit should also not be controlable;) and is coded that way in the original mod.)

Normal crime units are under the control of the player and can do the same things as those that can't be controlled. Things that can be done are
  • one time increase local crime (unit may survive but retreat home) amount depends on gangs etc present
  • install "Gang" if tech, crime rate and pop support it. Allows a few auto build crime buildings
  • install "Rival Gang" requires "Gang" tech and more pop
  • install "Foreign Gang" (only by foreign units) similar to "Rival Gang" but money and espionage go to player who added the "Foreign Gang". If one exists this event replaces the existing one...
  • upgrade "Gang" to "Mob" removes all of the gangs in and temporarily increases crime. Allows a bunch of new crime buildings (auto built)
  • upgrade "Mob" to "Cartel/Mafia"

Notes:
  • these "buildings" may be specialists instead as in the Bad People Mod.
  • Gangs produce more crime than Mobs with Cartel producing the least crime. They are all about organisation and have to respect the law. However the extra auto built buildings that come available increase both in number and severity with the increase of the organisation.
  • counter: buildings and units have a chance of expelling one of these per turn. There also needs to be a special "great" anti-crime unit that can clean up a town
 
2) Most importantly units that are owned by someone but can't be controlled by them! (Note the Immigrant unit should also not be controlable and is coded that way in the original mod.)

Thanks for making them controllable. When first implemented I recall them running to the smallest city when made. Which typically got them killed since I could not escort them.

As for the " Bad People Mod" I assume you will combine it with our existing crime stuff. Such as Gang units being triggered by the Crime (Gangs) and Mob units by the Crime (Organized Crime). Or did you have a different implementation in mind?

EDIT: Here are all the building in my Crime mod.

Crime Mod
- Assassin's Den
- Bandit's Hideout
- Brothel (Advaned Stats)
- Casino (Advaned Stats)
- Chop Shop
- Crime (Arson)
- Crime (Asimov Tampering)
- Crime (Bank Robbery)
- Crime (Burglary)
- Crime (Car Bombing)
- Crime (Car Theft)
- Crime (Child Labor)
- Crime (Counterfeiting)
- Crime (Drugs)
- Crime (Drunk Driving)
- Crime (Embezzlement)
- Crime (Environmental Dumping)
- Crime (False Accusations)
- Crime (Fighting)
- Crime (Flashing)
- Crime (Forgery)
- Crime (Gangs)
- Crime (Gene Forgery)
- Crime (Graffiti)
- Crime (Hacking)
- Crime (Hate Crime)
- Crime (Illegal Brainwashing)
- Crime (Insubordination)
- Crime (Kidnapping)
- Crime (Littering)
- Crime (Military Desertion)
- Crime (Money Laundering)
- Crime (Mugging)
- Crime (Murder)
- Crime (Online Piracy)
- Crime (Organized Crime)
- Crime (Pickpocketing)
- Crime (Poaching)
- Crime (Rape)
- Crime (Rioting)
- Crime (Sexual Harassment)
- Crime (Soliciting)
- Crime (Toilet Papering)
- Crime (Tresspassing)
- Crime (Vigilantism)
- Diver Bar
- Drug Lord's Mansion
- Galactic Cantina
- Gambeling Hall (Advanced Stats)
- Mercenary Camp
- Mercenary Stabes
- Mob Storefront
- Pirate's Cove
- Poacher's Camp
- Pub
- Rebel's Camp
- Saloon
- Smuggler's Shanty
- Tavern
- Terrorist's Compound
 
Crime seeks a stabilized level, But... for every action there is a reaction. Pop is assigned so much crime (currently iirc it's 5 per pop point). With no other influences (of which there are now many) the crime will climb to the "stabilization point" that x pop gives. Problem is that your cities are almost never stagnant or shrinking, so the "stabilization level" is constantly growing as the pop grows.

Now let's introduce some crime reducing objects (buildings/units/traits/etc.) As these units attempt to reduce the level of crime their impact creates a downward slide in the "stabilization level" that was/is created/affected by pop. The downward reaction if only a one time instance or a single factor (like a single TW) only exerts so much downward pressure. After the new influence has reached it's bottom the Crime function starts trying to reach a new "stabilization level". If you add 3 objects that reduce or increase crime the action and subsequent reaction can be more pronounced, But the mechanics will always seek the "stabilization level". You can pile on enough downward pressure to have Crime in the minus region but because of the 'stabilization level" mechanics it will, with no other influences, start to climb back to the Now calculated "stabilization level". And as influences are added in, both + or - Crime the mechanics seek the "SL".

The calculations are layered from simple + or - to then being %s. Koshling once "tried" to describe the formula. But as new things that affect crime keep getting added in it gets more convoluted and complex. Some of the latest additons was the New trait system.

If you can figure out the exact way to calculate it then you a very skilled in math analysis.

JosEPh


Thanks for the explanation, JosEPh! That makes sense - as my crime values were bouncing up & done, it would make sense that the 'stablization' point was somewhere in between the high & low values.
 
Just some rough notes:-

The Bad People Mod (originally by Roger Bacon and recovered and updated by Platyping) has some interesting ideas. For best implementation in C2C we need two things before I would implement it.

1) Crime units that exist just as crime units throughout the game.
2) Most importantly units that are owned by someone but can't be controlled by them! (Note the Immigrant unit should also not be controlable;) and is coded that way in the original mod.)

Normal crime units are under the control of the player and can do the same things as those that can't be controlled. Things that can be done are
  • one time increase local crime (unit may survive but retreat home) amount depends on gangs etc present
  • install "Gang" if tech, crime rate and pop support it. Allows a few auto build crime buildings
  • install "Rival Gang" requires "Gang" tech and more pop
  • install "Foreign Gang" (only by foreign units) similar to "Rival Gang" but money and espionage go to player who added the "Foreign Gang". If one exists this event replaces the existing one...
  • upgrade "Gang" to "Mob" removes all of the gangs in and temporarily increases crime. Allows a bunch of new crime buildings (auto built)
  • upgrade "Mob" to "Cartel/Mafia"

Notes:
  • these "buildings" may be specialists instead as in the Bad People Mod.
  • Gangs produce more crime than Mobs with Cartel producing the least crime. They are all about organisation and have to respect the law. However the extra auto built buildings that come available increase both in number and severity with the increase of the organisation.
  • counter: buildings and units have a chance of expelling one of these per turn. There also needs to be a special "great" anti-crime unit that can clean up a town

Just to ping off these thoughts...

This sounds a lot like the Organized Crime I had considered working on at some point waaaay down the road.

The concept I had been considering would be driven by the corporation engine with the criminal organizations acting almost identical to corporations with the exception that they are generally a very bad thing to have in your cities.

Thus you'd have the headquarters established somewhere in your own territory (those would be mostly beneficial to control as is normal for corporations, due to the fact that a lot of money is being generated for the local economy from the criminal operations) and then from there you'd have criminal units that could be built from there that could go, as executives though they'd have more use than just this function as you mention, spread the organization's influence to opponent nations.

That influence would be a wretched, yet hard to detect (requiring espionage most likely) drain on those 'spread-to' cities. As is normal for corporations, each city the criminal organization was spread to would be generating more income for the headquarters.

Thus the whole criminal organization becomes another way to wage a cold war against an enemy, destroying their economy, enhancing their crime levels etc...

Then you'd have ways to counter it and 'clean things up'. Not the least of which would likely be that if a crime level were too low in a city, the organization's influence would be either completely subdued like a deactivated building, or ejected altogether.

In addition, I'd thought this up as a part of the 'Dark Great People' project - it would be something for the polar opposite GP of the Great Merchant (call it Great Scoundrel or something to that extent) - such a GP would be able to found the Criminal Organizations in a similar way to how Merchants are the most common to found corporations. They might be useful much earlier for that than merchants are though, as Criminal Organizations go back a lot further in history than Corporations do.

The Dark Great People mod would have us possess a second GP progress bar that would represent the national total of GP pts being brought in by all cities combined. Thus it would begin to matter what the ancillary cities are generating as far as GP pts are concerned. Obviously, the thresholds would be set for national levels rather than local ones as our normal GP progress bar does. And it would track the normal GP types just as the local ones do except that instead of birthing those types, the type birthed would be the 'Dark GP type' that correlates to the normal one. Thus if you got a Merchant as the birthing result, you'd actually get a Great Scoundrel instead - the unit would come into play in the capital automatically.


I'd also considered we might want to have Cults that operate similar to religions but on a negative basis much like the Criminal Organizations. Obviously, these would be driven by the Great Heretic - the Dark form of the Great Prophet.


I bring this all up because it sounds like you're making some suggestions and plans that could be very harmonious with these ideas so it might be beneficial for us to consider the 'big picture' of what we might want.
 
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