Crimea - history repeats itself yet again

[Winner]

^Yeah, none of those two lines you offered shows what was posted; it merely presents your defeat of your own projection placed in the position of the posts by myself. Stockholm syndrome is strong in your own views, though

Take a deep breath, read what you write, and think; do me that courtesy.

1) your claim as to why Belgium was occupied is clearly wrong - the part of Wiki you quoted as evidence for your claim in fact says the exact opposite.

2) Your anti-German comments have recently become pretty ubiquitous in your posts; rarely a day goes by without another jab against the EU and, specifically, Germany.

Get a grip, Kyriakos, because you're losing it. And I am saying this as a friend.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am offended, cause this is an RD thread. Why do you hate RD Freedom?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Anyway, as I said before, I think Putin is more like Slobodan Milošević - ruthless, cunning, nationalistic, and cynical to the point of absurdity. Both share many similarities, and both were once approached by the West as partners. Until they used ethnic nationalism to ignite wars over and over again. Of course, there's the difference that Putin has nukes and a much bigger country to screw with, which makes him a bit more dangerous in that regard.

It was stated on this forum before that in Putins time Russia was able to rise from the chaos of 90ties. It actually works even thought not in the same manner as western Europe which isnt even the goal I believe. One can guess if not for strong leader Russia could have "enjoyed" simmilar problems as in bancrupt Ukraine. Just recently I have read that Poland was divided in the past becouse it was potential danger to its neighbours since it couldnt provide its self defense. Now guess what, Russia does just that. Its defending its interests in and from country which is on the bring of chaos and its a playfield for international interest endengering Russias existence. Look at history and the Crimean war when Russia was prevented by Britain and France from acquiring Crimea and potentialy freeing Constantinopol fearing it will become too powerful. The same fears are being played out now.
Putin is a liar but he has to deal with liars. He is cunning and so is everybody else. Cynical? Look at the US goverment - that should do. Putin does help Russia and even the international community only you cant naively expect Russia to become Wests b§tch.

 

[Verbose]

What's in Putin's interests aren't by definition in Russia's interests.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

What's in Putin's interests aren't by definition in Russia's interests.

How about Obama, Merkel or anybody else? Its the story different? I dont think so. So why we are so freeking out about this one? Becouse he has his own game?

 

[Winner]

How about Obama, Merkel or anybody else? Its the story different? I dont think so. So why we are so freeking out about this one? Becouse he has his own game?

Because Merkel isn't running what amounts to a police state. If her policies are disliked by a majority, she's voted out of office. And that's ignoring that Germany isn't a one-(wo)man regime; Merkel is the Chancellor but she runs a coalition government and her powers are in no way comparable to the near dictatorial powers of Putin and his Einiges Russland partei.

Now you or some other people will protest that Putin seems to be liked by a majority of Russians. That may be true; but I cannot know for sure because the elections in Russia are widely manipulated and essentially unfree given the absolute control of pro-Putin elements of the mass media; the latter makes me doubt even opinion polls conducted in that country. Russia is one huge house of lies, you can literally trust nothing the Kremlin regime and its associates broadcast to the world.

What Verbose is talking about is simply that dictators usually have interests that are, in the long run, harmful to the country they rule. The longer they are in power, the more entrenched they become, the worse for the country. Democracy may be flawed in many aspects, but it still works better at maintaining some sort of synchronisation between the interests of a country's inhabitants and its government's policies.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Because Merkel isn't running what amounts to a police state. If her policies are disliked by a majority, she's voted out of office. And that's ignoring that Germany isn't a one-(wo)man regime; Merkel is the Chancellor but she runs a coalition government and her powers are in no way comparable to the near dictatorial powers of Putin and his Einiges Russland partei.

Now you or some other people will protest that Putin seems to be liked by a majority of Russians. That may be true; but I cannot know for sure because the elections in Russia are widely manipulated and essentially unfree given the absolute control of pro-Putin elements of the mass media; the latter makes me doubt even opinion polls conducted in that country. Russia is one huge house of lies, you can literally trust nothing the Kremlin regime and its associates broadcast to the world.

What Verbose is talking about is simply that dictators usually have interests that are, in the long run, harmful to the country they rule. The longer they are in power, the more entrenched they become, the worse for the country. Democracy may be flawed in many aspects, but it still works better at maintaining some sort of synchronisation between the interests of a country's inhabitants and its government's policies.

Yeah, but how do you know Merkel doesnt act like cold bloody dictator on issues she consider "safe" to do so? or imagine what will Merkel do if she was a Russian leader. Do you think she would change that place into democracy over night? I am trying to argue that to see Russia with the western perception is to missunderstand it.
When it comes to democracy it has its own cycles of development and if its to keep itself healtly and potent it has to be flexible and react to rising challenges. Please have a look on this study how US is changing from democracy to oligarchy:http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

 

[gay_Aleks]

Might as well rename the thread as "Ukraine Crisis Thread, Part Deux: Too Soon?".

 

[Verbose]

Yeah, but how do you know Merkel doesnt act like cold bloody dictator on issues she consider "safe" to do so? or imagine what will Merkel do if she was a Russian leader. Do you think she would change that place into democracy over night? I am trying to argue that to see Russia with the western perception is to missunderstand it.
When it comes to democracy it has its own cycles of development and if its to keep itself healtly and potent it has to be flexible and react to rising challenges. Please have a look on this study how US is changing from democracy to oligarchy:http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

Russia isn't a western democracy, which is why someone like Putin can be in charge of it — making sure it doesn't develop in such a direction either.

That means what's good for Putin, isn't in itself good for Russia.

You pointed out the bleedin' obvious and made a trivial observation about Russia, the point of which was suppoed to be what?

Merkel has nothing to do with the direction Putin has pulled Russia in. Her personal qualities, whatever those are supposed to be, are completely irrelevant to the Russia's situation. But if one is to entertain the notion for a monent, knowing Merkel, she would wait, endlessly. That's her style of politics.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I've never really understood the entitlement the West always has - to them, there's no democracy outside of the West, which is why there's a necessary "western" adjective to the word "democracy", because only in the West democracy thrives.

Obviously!

 

[Winner]

Yeah, but how do you know Merkel doesnt act like cold bloody dictator on issues she consider "safe" to do so? or imagine what will Merkel do if she was a Russian leader. Do you think she would change that place into democracy over night? I am trying to argue that to see Russia with the western perception is to missunderstand it.

I don't know; I am simply talking about facts - Germany under Merkel is one of the most free countries in the world while Russia under Putin is about as 'democratic' and 'free' as China.

I could also argue that Putin is not even trying to make Russia better and more prepared for genuine democracy, as an "enlightened dictator" should. He's doing the exact opposite: under his rule, Russia slid back towards authoritarianism and unfreedom.

When it comes to democracy it has its own cycles of development and if its to keep itself healtly and potent it has to be flexible and react to rising challenges. Please have a look on this study how US is changing from democracy to oligarchy:http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

I fail to see how the failings of the American democracy justify the rise of Russian ethnonationalistic dictatorship.

Might as well rename the thread as "Ukraine Crisis Thread, Part Deux: Too Soon?".

Your wish is my command.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Russia isn't a western democracy, which is why someone like Putin can be in charge of it — making sure it doesn't develop in such a direction either.

O.K. smarty-pants. Berlusconi or Bush can be in charge of western democracies but Putin is too much right?

That means what's good for Putin, isn't in itself good for Russia.

Thats not logic but wish guessing. The fact is that semidemocratic Russia has risen during last decade but the most of the democratic West has went rather downhill.

You pointed out the bleedin' obvious and made a trivial observation about Russia, the point of which was suppoed to be what?

The point is that to expect everyone else be like you is simply stupid.

Merkel has nothing to do with the direction Putin has pulled Russia in. Her personal qualities, whatever those are supposed to be, are completely irrelevant to the Russia's situation. But if one is to entertain the notion for a monent, knowing Merkel, she would wait, endlessly. That's her style of politics.

Merkel would wait for what? Sometimes you cant wait so you choose the lesser evil.
Take Gorbachev. He had something going on but the bloody West didnt help him out perversly watching Russia to fall. Now Gorby is a hero in the west but traitor in Russia. I dont think Putin is a ret@rd.

 

[gay_Aleks]

To be fair, it's hard to say that there's a real democracy anywhere, whether we're talking about the west, east or whatever geopolitical terms you're using, as democracy requires an amount of honesty that would be apocalyptic for the world as we know it.

Democracy needs requires honesty, which we don't have a critical lack of, and which most "world leaders" sure as damn won't give.

 

[Agent327]

Too much honesty is detrimental to civilization.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Too much honesty may be detrimental to society but if an individual wants to do something with his life he has to be brutaly sincere with himself.

 

[Takhisis]

I fail to see how the failings of the American democracy justify the rise of Russian ethnonationalistic dictatorship.

I do, too, but making moronic, disingenuous arguments such as 'NO, YOU…!' is a standard of this type of debate.

Your wish is my command.

Do I get a free wish/command, too?

 

[Rashiminos]

So we have no information concerning who is actually behind it.

Do we have any Russian grammarians in OTF? Otherwise, Cutlass's quote tenfold.

Edit: I'm not even seeing a fee amount in roubles or hryvnia (because it explicitly asks for USD ).

"By way of deception" I guess.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I fail to see how the failings of the American democracy justify the rise of Russian ethnonationalistic dictatorship.

Itsnt matter of justification but putting things in context.

EDIT: Dont you see the absurdity? The country which in last couple of decades has been moving away from democratic principles is criticizing another one for doing the same. The worlds oligarchy knows how democracy works and how it can be exploited. Imho right now Putin cant move towards democracy even if he wants to for that would ultimately mean giving power over Russia to the interests groups outside of it.

 

[Verbose]

Itsnt matter of justification but putting things in context.

If you get it wrong it's just obfuscation. And that's if you're arguing in good fait. If in bad faith, well...

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

If you get it wrong it's just obfuscation. And that's if you're arguing in good fait. If in bad faith, well...

What is this thing around here that there is only one way approaching a reality? O.K. I get it; its been an emotional topic and people have invested a lot but still... My philosophy is that if I criticize someone I better be pretty good myself or well...