Cristo Redentor MOST powerful wonder

[gonzaleslayer]

I play mainly industrial era or modern era advance start hot seat, we usually double or triple cash allowance.....mainly just to make a hot seat game reasonable in length.

Cristo Redentor--in my opinion this wonder is by far the most powerful bar none, to the point of being unfair. You can use it to flip your civics too many ways each turn with many advantages. In our games we have a gentlemens understanding that neither of us build it cause it almost decides the game, espcially if you do not have a spiritual leader.

obvious civic advantages

-Buy stuff in universal suffrage, then switch off for other civic bonus.

-Same for serfdom get all your workers to build stuff under serfdom then switch to something else. Same goes for many civics (slavery/nationhood etc.) where you get the advantage before the end of your turn.

-Switch all civics and religion to match other leaders for diplomacy advantage, make crucial trades, poach tech, pact etc. then switch off to your own.

- There should really be some sort of limits on amount of changes you can make in a turn.

the real killer

-If you get the redentor crank up spying, you can almost totally choke your opponent to death with "switch civics" spy mission send in a bunch of spies when you can do so (spies in place/ enough espionage points) switch your civics one by one or all at once to useless ones, then switch opponents civics to kill, production, culture and research, anything really. The opponent cannot switch em back for five turns, so just keep doing this and they are screwed, of course you have to be able to out espionage point the guy, also helps kill good relations with other civs.

-when we would play with it, the civic change messages were crazy like twenty would come popping up, annoying the opponent, especially when mixed in with spy messages.

 

[Gocho]

Well it's a great late wonder that's balanced by the fact that it affects only a small % of the game if it even goes that long.

I'm not surprised it's great playing only industrial starts.

 

[Supp]

Ehh, its too much micro for me.

 

[shyuhe]

You must be playing an old version of bts. You can now only change civics once a turn using Cristo. It's still a nice wonder, but slightly less broken. Funny how people love Cristo, but think spiritual sucks

 

[ThoMeuhGal]

but with spiritual you need to wait between civic changes.

 

[obsolete]

You must be playing an old version of bts. You can now only change civics once a turn using Cristo. It's still a nice wonder, but slightly less broken. Funny how people love Cristo, but think spiritual sucks

Spiritual used to be king pre BtS, well unless you asked one of the rookies of course. But Cristo, in addition to new changes on how golden-ages work, etc. have all nerfed spiritual so much it fell out of favour overnight with the top players. It's a real shame. Never before did I see a leader trait go from top of the list to the bottom like that. They could have at least reduced the time-wait for spiritual leaders to add a LITTLE bit of compensation. It still wouldn't be real compensation, but at least a balancing move in the right direction. Unfortunately Firaxis was never one with common sense.

 

[gonzaleslayer]

You must be playing an old version of bts. You can now only change civics once a turn using Cristo. It's still a nice wonder, but slightly less broken. Funny how people love Cristo, but think spiritual sucks

really, older bts??? I got it about a year ago, and I can change civs as many times as I want....was it one of the patches that did this? I have not downloaded any yet due to worries about them hampering realiability in vista?? one change a turn would make it way more fair. The use of cristo with spies would still be deadly but not as deadly/easy and would take more time.

 

[gugalpm]

Not really.

Comes too late.

 

[obsolete]

really, older bts??? I got it about a year ago, and I can change civs as many times as I want....

Yes, a bunch of rookies complained that it shouldn't allow players to change civics multiple times in one turn. This is a real shame, because it was the primary reason why a spiritual civ even had barely a weak use in building this the odd time. So they effectively took the spiritual leaders, which they had so HEAVILY nerfed, and even took it a step further to nerf them even more. Stupid...

Not really.

Comes too late.

Uhhh... If you want to say German's UU comes too late, fine. If you want to say the American UU comes too late... fine.

But with the CR you have GOT TO BE KIDDING US!

Once you finally graduate up from your epic/marathon training-wheels, you'll find out the game tends drag on much longer on the time-scale. If the deity players make great use out of this, I don't see why you couldn't some day.

 

[Trev]

Never built it, too busy building armies late in the game or spaceships to worry about it, or the techs required for it

 

[gonzaleslayer]

Yes, a bunch of rookies complained that it shouldn't allow players to change civics multiple times in one turn. This is a real shame, because it was the primary reason why a spiritual civ even had barely a weak use in building this the odd time. So they effectively took the spiritual leaders, which they had so HEAVILY nerfed, and even took it a step further to nerf them even more. Stupid...

.

I am confused, so to have a cristo that only allows one change per turn I have to buy a new bts, brand new? newer than last christmas season? how would I know what the actual release date on a specific bts box would be?? or is there an update available...

nerfed??

Also don't you think it is too much of an advantage for multiple civ changes per turn???
I don't consider myself a rookie (at least not in the realm of advanced later era starts) and I fully agree with not having multiple civ changes. It is too much of a massive advantage and it makes no real world sense, or at the very least you should incur some sort of unhappiness due to confusion penalty.

 

[gonzaleslayer]

-For the people that say it comes too late---we start late so its good to go very early.

-For the too much micro-well worth it, and once you get used to a couple flips per turn it its fully worth it. Not even considering the massive force when used in conjuction with spies, its like you get the use 6/7/8 civ advantages instead of whatever five you run, thats huge, just imagine there was something that you could build/research that would let you select multiple civics in each category..huge.

-Too busy building units. You go in and change a guys civics to ones that do nothing, and the pain your opponent feels in production easily outweighs the extra 5/10 units you could build.

 

[gugalpm]

Yes, a bunch of rookies complained that it shouldn't allow players to change civics multiple times in one turn. This is a real shame, because it was the primary reason why a spiritual civ even had barely a weak use in building this the odd time. So they effectively took the spiritual leaders, which they had so HEAVILY nerfed, and even took it a step further to nerf them even more. Stupid...




Uhhh... If you want to say German's UU comes too late, fine. If you want to say the American UU comes too late... fine.

But with the CR you have GOT TO BE KIDDING US!

Once you finally graduate up from your epic/marathon training-wheels, you'll find out the game tends drag on much longer on the time-scale. If the deity players make great use out of this, I don't see why you couldn't some day.

i just find it useless - doesn't suit my style of play. Once I graduate from what? You gotta be joking me.

I'm not supposed to like it just because player A or B like it.

 

[Bei1052]

If you're not going to be doing any civic changes, it's not so hot.

 

[Windsor]

The apostolic palace is without a doubt the most powerful wonder in the game. CR is a good wonder, but you really can't rate a wonder just by how strong it is under some special custom game settings. That's like saying cannons suck because you play with always peace on

 

[Shurdus]

If you're not going to be doing any civic changes, it's not so hot.

That is like saying that the oyramids are not so hot if you can get them because you were not planning on changing civics...

When you can get the CR you will change civics because you can do it every turn, and because doing this allows you the best of every civic in the game without any downsides to it. You can switch to rush buy stuff, to rush buildings or units or to benefit from diplomatic bonusses and change religions on the fly if diplomacy demands it. This is really powerful and should not easely be overlooked. It is a very, very powerful wonder.

 

[Shurdus]

The apostolic palace is without a doubt the most powerful wonder in the game. CR is a good wonder, but you really can't rate a wonder just by how strong it is under some special custom game settings. That's like saying cannons suck because you play with always peace on

CR is strong in any standard game. In epic or marathon games the game can very well be won with conquest by 1600 AD - good warmongers can do it faster - so you can very well play games where you never get that far. In normal speed games however you will likely get far enough that you can build the CR.

Once you can build this wonder it is powerful and arguably the best late game wonder - unless in some specific circumstances where you would need to build the UN yourself in order to be able to win diplomatically. In every other case though I would say the CR is the best. There is nothing 'specific' about the settings where the opportunity to use it will come up.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Obviously no wonder touches AP in the "most powerful" sector. Building CR doesn't effectively win the game for you 9/10 times.

CR is an excellent wonder, assuming of course you're not toast by the time you get there .

I find it hard to go early radio sometimes though. I much prefer military techs, but this is a delicious wonder to capture...worth hunting down similar to the kremlin when whipping/cash rushing or SoL on huge land maps when you are going merc/rep. Or the AP, because having it means you win generally .

 

[Fleme]

i just find it useless - doesn't suit my style of play. Once I graduate from what? You gotta be joking me.

I'm not supposed to like it just because player A or B like it.

Yeah well he's a number of his own. I amuse myself with all the "No Speed Cheats" he keeps posting. A feature of the game - clearly a cheat, am I right?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Nevertheless, saying "CR doesn't fit my playstyle" is kind of like saying "rifles don't fit my playstyle" or "more than 6 cities doesn't fit my playstyle".

If someone is choosing to role play, that can make wonders suck in that context (the oracle was terrible in mad's chairman mao RPC, since it was banned to us in the rules :/), but that's hardly relevant in a thread like this.