Cristo Redentor MOST powerful wonder

[Dirk1302]

CR is extremely useful and it doesn't come that late on deity, around 1400-1500 AD i guess.

 

[dalamb]

It strikes me that, if the OP wants to avoid pointless confusion/flammage:

1. Edit original post.
2. Change title to "Cristo Redentor MOST powerful wonder in industrial-era starts"
3. Add disclaimer to end of message explaining old title as cause for some of the flaming.

Count on people reacting to a title and not reading (or perhaps outright ignoring) in-message disclaimers.

 

[karadoc]

I often go for radio earlier so that I can grab the radio wonders... I usually get three good cities ready to build all three wonders. Anyway, for non spiritual leaders, CR is definitely the best of the radio wonders - but I still wouldn't consider it the most powerful in the game. For spiritual leaders I consider it the least important of the radio wonders.

I'd prefer to get the pyramids or the SoL.. and probably a few others. With a late advanced start I suppose things are different. I hardly ever play advanced starts, so I don't really know what's good there. I agree that the usefulness of the CR is limited by the fact that it comes so late - but it's not that the game is almost over or anything like that, but rather just that most civics and religions have usually stabilized by that stage. The spy thing doesn't work so well with the latest version. It can still cripple your enemy, but it comes at a fair large cost to you as well (because you have to run junk civics for a short time as well - so unless it's down to 1v1, or I have some special reason, then I wouldn't do that.

By the way, despite what Obsolete thinks, I still consider spiritual to be one of the best, maybe even the very best trait. I certainly think spiritual is more powerful than philosophical. Spiritual and financial are the two that I reckon are contenders for the best trait. (I think financial is a bit boring, because making good use of financial hardly effects my strategy at all whereas for other traits I have to play a bit differently to make the most of them.)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I often go for radio earlier so that I can grab the radio wonders... I usually get three good cities ready to build all three wonders. Anyway, for non spiritual leaders, CR is definitely the best of the radio wonders - but I still wouldn't consider it the most powerful in the game. For spiritual leaders I consider it the least important of the radio wonders.

I'd prefer to get the pyramids or the SoL.. and probably a few others. With a late advanced start I suppose things are different. I hardly ever play advanced starts, so I don't really know what's good there. I agree that the usefulness of the CR is limited by the fact that it comes so late - but it's not that the game is almost over or anything like that, but rather just that most civics and religions have usually stabilized by that stage. The spy thing doesn't work so well with the latest version. It can still cripple your enemy, but it comes at a fair large cost to you as well (because you have to run junk civics for a short time as well - so unless it's down to 1v1, or I have some special reason, then I wouldn't do that.

By the way, despite what Obsolete thinks, I still consider spiritual to be one of the best, maybe even the very best trait. I certainly think spiritual is more powerful than philosophical. Spiritual and financial are the two that I reckon are contenders for the best trait. (I think financial is a bit boring, because making good use of financial hardly effects my strategy at all whereas for other traits I have to play a bit differently to make the most of them.)

Actually influencing civics and religions greatly increases the odds of a diplo victory if you know what you are doing. You will win unless you have accrued worst enemy trade penalties. Kick the AI into or out of favorite civics and switch back.

 

[mirthadir]

mirthadir, yes standard ethanol should work but you need the tech: plastics+corporation for, so you need combustion anyways.

No, I'm asking about if the AI founds SE before you get combustion and you say, capture a city with it.

So say I've teched to industrialism and I manage to culture flip an AI city with SE already in it. Can I skip combustion and use my new oil to beat down the AI or do I need combustion (or plastics/corporation) just to get the corporation to work.

I am NOT talking about founding SE.

 

[r_rolo1]

Corps don't have tech prereqs to work, they only have tech prereqs to be founded. You can capture a city with a corp and make it work for you even if you don't have the techs needed to found it ( as long as you aren't running SP or Merc and have the necessary resources OFC )

 

[huerfanista]

No, I'm asking about if the AI founds SE before you get combustion and you say, capture a city with it.

So say I've teched to industrialism and I manage to culture flip an AI city with SE already in it. Can I skip combustion and use my new oil to beat down the AI or do I need combustion (or plastics/corporation) just to get the corporation to work.

I am NOT talking about founding SE.

I agree with Rolo's comment re:SE, but AFAIK you can't "use" oil without combustion (i.e., you won't be able to build destroyers/tanks/planes without combustion). After all, you can "get" oil with scimeth, but you can't use it for oil-requiring units until combustion.

 

[r_rolo1]

True, you can't use oil of Standart ethanol without knowing combustion well, the only units you can do that use oil and that don't require combustion are tanks and battleships, so the diference would not be that big anyway....

 

[Dirk1302]

Well i guess it's all about tanks so the difference is big.

 

[r_rolo1]

Dirk, I was talking in the broader sense But yes, in the context of the discussion, surely it makes quite a diference

 

[bestsss]

So say I've teched to industrialism and I manage to culture flip an AI city with SE already in it. Can I skip combustion and use my new oil to beat down the AI or do I need combustion (or plastics/corporation) just to get the corporation to work.

Standard ethanol won't provide oil w/o combustion. If you trade for oil, it will do, though. I think the only way to use oil w/o combustion is trading for.
Check to make sure: for oil, <TechCityTrade> is combustion. W/o it unless traded by some other civ oil cannot be used.

 

[huerfanista]

Well i guess it's all about tanks so the difference is big.

No transports without combustion. So you can build those tanks, you just can't get them overseas unless you use galleons.

EDIT: Oops, you can buld them with uranium + fission.

EDIT2: This whole oil/combustion thing is really bizarre. You need combustion to tech flight, but planes only need oil, whereas destroyers need combustion and oil, tanks/battleships/mobile arty/fighters/jet fighters/bombers only need oil (apparently diesel/airplane/jet engines don't use combustion ), StdEthanol doesn't need combustion to be founded but does need it to produce oil. Sheer lunacy!

 

[bestsss]

Std. Ethanol need plastics which need combustion, though. That's about founding, the corp will provide beakers w/o combustion if you get it somehow.
Tanks need rifles as a bonus

 

[gugalpm]

Yeah well he's a number of his own. I amuse myself with all the "No Speed Cheats" he keeps posting. A feature of the game - clearly a cheat, am I right?

It's definitely cheating.

Nevertheless, saying "CR doesn't fit my playstyle" is kind of like saying "rifles don't fit my playstyle" or "more than 6 cities doesn't fit my playstyle".

If someone is choosing to role play, that can make wonders suck in that context (the oracle was terrible in mad's chairman mao RPC, since it was banned to us in the rules :/), but that's hardly relevant in a thread like this.

It does not suit my playstyle. If I usually win the game on rifles, I have no use for a modern age wonder.

Cristo Redentor is a long shot from being the most powerful wonder in the game simply because it comes so late. I would advocate the Great Library or the Apostolic Palace for the "most powerful wonder" title (though I myself detest cheesy AP diplo wins and often raze the AP city in my games).

This is not to say I'm not fond of the CR, in fact, it's on my list of late game wonders--unless I'm playing as a Spiritual leader, for whom the CR is a nice bonus (1 turn wait between civics changes rather than 5, plus you keep it out of the hands of other civs). It's fun and useful to be able to switch easily to Universal Suffrage for a spending spree (which is even more powerful when combined with the Kremlin), to Slavery for a little late-game whipping (especially if you're conquering territory and need to deal with those rejoin-our-motherland whiners), to Nationhood for drafting, to Vassalage and/or Theocracy for some extra XPs... well, you get the picture.

I still think Spiritual is a fine trait, I just think that in BtS it dropped from being one of the best (along with Financial and Philosophical) to the vast mid-range of traits (along with Creative, Organized, Expansive, etc.--good traits, but not in the Fin/Phi league). It wasn't just the CR that nerfed Spiritual a little bit, it was mainly the changes to Golden Ages: you now only need 1 Great Person for your first GA, and you can change civics anarchy-free during them. (Plus GAs were made more attractive in other regards--with a new wonder that lengthens them and increased Great Person production.) These changes are what really took away a lot of the power from Spiritual and made some of it available to all non-Spiritual leaders.

Nevertheless, having the freedom to switch civics easily--and, especially, to switch in and out of them, such as switching to Slavery to whip then out of it to avoid the slavery revolt random event--is still quite powerful, especially in the early and mid-game, long before the CR is available. Plus you get to use your Great People for other purposes, and you don't have to chase the Taj Mahal.

Agreed.

Well in that case, I stand corrected. You Sir, and others who wish to stay in despotism, etc. until game's end are quite correct. But even still, there are denial values, etc., so calling it useless is just asking to have others in this thread call you out on it.

I said: I find it useless. Next time I'll bold the I as mise-en-relief.

 

[JTMacc99]

But then I see other players never leave their continent and launch the ship at like 1930 AD on immortal, which is perplexing in the extreme since in my game 1-2 AIs would have won culture by then, and possibly someone would have won space also.

Maybe in your games, the other leaders are picking up the slack for the complete vacuum of culture generated in your part of the world (given your civilization's preoccupation with obtaining Nuclear Weapons almost from the first time one of your warriors is attacked by a bear.)