Crossbows vs. Longbows

[lasombra1984]

In my Cataphract beeline I've found that Crossbows are much earlier & easily to get than Longbows. My tech way is Masonry-Agriculture-AH-Mining-BW-Pottery-Politheism-Priesthood. Using Oracle for Metal Casting opens Machinery for 1st Great Engineer, and usually I get Archery close to that GP.
Thus CBs are available BC, while my offensive units (and sometimes defensive ) are Chariots.

1. Are crossbows good defensive units?
2. Is training CBs worth it BC, or primitive Archers will properly do their job?
3. Which promotion would be better for Crossbows - City Garrison 2 or Drill 2/Combat+Impact to make them anti-pike in advance?

Any ideas?

 

[kossin]

1. Against melee units they're pretty good. Not good against LBs HAs and WEs however.
2. If you're playing SB or China, you can rack up kills pretty easily. It's not that great with other leaders imo.
3. Going by 2), Drill

 

[lasombra1984]

1. Against melee units they're pretty good. Not good against LBs HAs and WEs however.
2. If you're playing SB or China, you can rack up kills pretty easily. It's not that great with other leaders imo.
3. Going by 2), Drill

I'm playing Justinian.
Thanks for tips

 

[whats a navy]

1) and 2)If you are using the beeline to get crossbows for defense archers are by far better for hammers and tech path. Don't use the machinery beeline for something like defense. Now if you are planning to attack with those then its a different story.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Crossbows are excellent defensive units, but you need Iron, and archery

I'd just sit tight teching until guilds, then pwnage.

 

[m4gill4]

I'd say save the great engineer for an emergency. If you're attacked bulb machinery and whip/promote crossbows because they're sure better than archers for defense. If you're not attacked by the time you reach guilds or feudalism then use the engineer for a wonder. Also, obviously machinery is useless for defense if you don't have iron so the point is moot.

 

[madscientist]

Crossbows get the melee bonus while the Longbows get an extra city defensive bonus. Also Fuedalism opens up the Vassalage Civic which allows the extra promotion especially for spiritual Justinian. Also Crossbows make excellent stack defenders especially if you bring along a decent number of spears to fight off mounted units.

As I have moved up in difficulty I find my self getting Machinery earlier than Fuedalism.

 

[flashog]

If you're not attacked by the time you reach guilds or feudalism then use the engineer for a wonder.

And what wonder would that be?

 

[budweiser]

Crossbows get the melee bonus while the Longbows get an extra city defensive bonus.

I came here to say this.

I'll just add the The Burger King only needs his UU, some x-bows and some trebs to really go on a killing spree.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I came here to say this.

I'll just add the The Burger King only needs his UU, some x-bows and some trebs to really go on a killing spree.

That does reasonably poorly vs any minor collateral + knights, and gets completely raped by muskets. Even longbows own that stack hammer for hammer although at least the AI won't do THAT :/. HRE UU is pretty trashy overall.

 

[catfish99]

i believe he is saying to keep the Engineer in pocket until you are capable of building Knights or Longbows, and then you can use him to pop one of the earlier wonders (Hanging Gardens?) which became available along the path, or for one from your next research target. But before you get the stronger units, you need the ability to pop a tech which will allow you to defend yourself.
I did not read it as thinking wonders came with Guilds or Feudalism.

 

[budweiser]

Sorry to hread jack.

I know there isnt much love for the HRE UU around here but you cant take a Landsknecht with a knight and I would have that stack in the field several hundred years before my enemy even thought about gunpowder.

 

[Tristan_C]

Crossbows are counter. Instead of spamming them outright, use OB/spy to keep tabs on any unit spammers bordering you, to see if they are piling up melees. Considering Justy's UU requires feudalism, there isn't much of a window for xbows to be a mainstay. Longbows are better /, so if you can just build a few individual xbows to protect stacks and border assets, do it.

 

[lasombra1984]

Crossbows are counter. Instead of spamming them outright, use OB/spy to keep tabs on any unit spammers bordering you, to see if they are piling up melees. Considering Justy's UU requires feudalism, there isn't much of a window for xbows to be a mainstay. Longbows are better /, so if you can just build a few individual xbows to protect stacks and border assets, do it.

I'm asking about using Crossbows or ARCHERS or Chariots just to remove unhappiness penalty before Feudalism.
1st Engeneer pops Machinery, not Feudalism

That does reasonably poorly vs any minor collateral + knights, and gets completely raped by muskets. Even longbows own that stack hammer for hammer although at least the AI won't do THAT :/. HRE UU is pretty trashy overall.

Most my rivals still using Classical Age units when I get Machinery. So I have alternative - using Archers & then spend gold to make them Longbows, or to use Crossbows and then use them in stack with Cataphracts+Catapults/Trebuchets.. after all I'll need some CBs to protect my Cats from spearman/pikeman attacks

 

[Udey1]

Ack,

HRE UU is not great. Their UB is great. Case closed. For more evidence and pages and pages of analysis use search feature, but this has been done to death.

It is a defensive unit, not an offensive one, but it has a bonus towards melee. But the mace( which it will fight) has a bonus towards it. It gets negated straight off.

It has a counter: crossbows chew it up.

With a little catapulting a stack can be easily taken with combat knights.(TmiT)

Having a stack of them instead of pikes makes hardly a difference. They do look cooler though.

 

[CreeDakota]

In my experience very early X-Bows cost too many hammers to be very effective offensively. A bigger stack of swords/axes/spears does better for the same hammer investment.

They are also expensive hammer wise just to use as a military police unit.

In the Justinian scenario you describe I would build a minimal amount of CB's while teching up to super Knights, use them as stack defense and to garrision any border or bottleneck cities.

I typically promote CB's with drill, for no proven logical reason!