Morred
Warlord
I think the other mistake was researching Masonry as like, our second tech. I'm happy to play the first forty, but will you roll the start?
CS-1 - Farmer's Paradise
- Thread starter chriseay
- Start date
I'm a little confused here, and it's partly my fault as I've been so engrossed in writing my adventure 4 report I sort of lost track of what is going on here.
Is a CS slingshot a necessary requirement (i.e. variant rule) of this SG, or just something that would be nice? Same question about the Pyramids. The problem with making goals like these necessary requirements is that they aren't sure things, and if we don't get them we end up restarting like we are now. Are we going to keep restarting until we successfully pull this off? Seems like this violates the spirit of the succession game concept, almost like reloading a save until everything works out just so.
I'm not criticizing here in any way, I'd just like to know what the true focus of the SG is. A focused strategy to get the CS slingshot is a great idea, but when the plan doesn't work, I don't think a restart is justified. One of the things that makes an SG challenging is getting everyone on the same page, and when that doesn't happen, well, then we talk it over and keep on playing! Heck, how great would a win in this game be if we pulled it off without nabbing the CS slingshot or the Pyramids? That would be quite a feat, no?
In any case, I'm fine with a single restart, once, if we play it out now with a focused strategy and take our lumps as they come. If we are going to restart everytime things don't go just right, then I'd prefer to step aside.
Is a CS slingshot a necessary requirement (i.e. variant rule) of this SG, or just something that would be nice? Same question about the Pyramids. The problem with making goals like these necessary requirements is that they aren't sure things, and if we don't get them we end up restarting like we are now. Are we going to keep restarting until we successfully pull this off? Seems like this violates the spirit of the succession game concept, almost like reloading a save until everything works out just so.
I'm not criticizing here in any way, I'd just like to know what the true focus of the SG is. A focused strategy to get the CS slingshot is a great idea, but when the plan doesn't work, I don't think a restart is justified. One of the things that makes an SG challenging is getting everyone on the same page, and when that doesn't happen, well, then we talk it over and keep on playing! Heck, how great would a win in this game be if we pulled it off without nabbing the CS slingshot or the Pyramids? That would be quite a feat, no?
In any case, I'm fine with a single restart, once, if we play it out now with a focused strategy and take our lumps as they come. If we are going to restart everytime things don't go just right, then I'd prefer to step aside.
beestar
subdeity
chriseay said:Edit: I just came to the conclusion from re reading Sina's test that probably one of the problems with our original start was the two seafood resources and my wanting a workboat first in that case. I think to pull this off we'll need that worker really early no matter what. That's my mistake. The game played me well.
Not too early or else he'll have nothing to do. I would guess that we would need him around the same time that Bronze Working comes on line.
Although we may want to bring in the worker earlier if we're near a resouce that can be obtained by mining (or perhaps Animal Husbandry ... those horse pastures can be great hammer production).
chriseay
The Master Trader
Oh definitely only one restart. I really don't like the idea of the one very much, but it seems to be the idea. The slingshot isn't a requirement, but getting CS as fast as possible is. That means that while if we don't pull off getting CS the easy way, we can just research it. The problem lies in to get it the easy way, we have a lot less of a chance to get pyramids, which would be nice for this variant and most of us seem to want. I say play as it comes when I re-roll the start, trying to get CS the easy way, and if not, then we'll have to get it the hard way.
Let's scratch this due to bad communication, etc., and we'll go at it again, but this time just take it as it comes. Go for civil service asap, if we don't get it then ok. Don't go for pyramids (or masonry) until after we have results either way on the CS slingshot. And even if we don't get CS the so-called "easy" way, still get it fast as possible. The game loses most of it's luster if there are tons of flatland squares we can't irrigate till halfway through the game.
Let's scratch this due to bad communication, etc., and we'll go at it again, but this time just take it as it comes. Go for civil service asap, if we don't get it then ok. Don't go for pyramids (or masonry) until after we have results either way on the CS slingshot. And even if we don't get CS the so-called "easy" way, still get it fast as possible. The game loses most of it's luster if there are tons of flatland squares we can't irrigate till halfway through the game.
Sina
Warlord
I would like to try the CS slingshot as it fits well into this variant. It's very much like the normal Oracle/CoL try that you make, just that you have to be more strict with research this time. You don't want the Prophet to research Theology instead.
Stonehenge is just there because of it's GP points and because it's fast with a chop. It wouldn't be a terrible thing not to build it. CS just takes longer then.
The Pyramids are worth a try if we have the proper starting location and a lot of forrest to chop or stone. They'd sure be nice to have!
It really depends on the starting location. I would not like to restart it more then this once. Take what you get and make the best out of it.
Oh, and worker first is definitely the way to go. We'll research Agriculture and Mining right away, so there will be something to do for him. Getting that farm/mine up early is key if we want to grab Stonehenge and Oracle.
Stonehenge is just there because of it's GP points and because it's fast with a chop. It wouldn't be a terrible thing not to build it. CS just takes longer then.
The Pyramids are worth a try if we have the proper starting location and a lot of forrest to chop or stone. They'd sure be nice to have!
It really depends on the starting location. I would not like to restart it more then this once. Take what you get and make the best out of it.
Oh, and worker first is definitely the way to go. We'll research Agriculture and Mining right away, so there will be something to do for him. Getting that farm/mine up early is key if we want to grab Stonehenge and Oracle.
chriseay
The Master Trader
Ok, let's give it another try guys. We'll make this one work no matter, but I'm happy we have a better plan this time. I think maybe I started us off too soon before. Morred's up and we'll go with the turn numbers we talked about before.
I think that a minor pitstop for Masonry is just as justifiable as a pitstop for Liberalism on the way to Biology. Part of the appeal of this SG was to test a specialist based farming strat vs. a cottage based one, a major component of which will be Representation. If we wait till CS to learn Masonry, we will have 0 chance of getting Pyramids, and a big chunk of exploring this strat will be missing.
Morred
Warlord
If you read Sina's report last page, you'd notice that the Pyramids were successfully built.
As for the start, I think we could settle on the spot pretty comfortably, lots of forests and floodplains, ought to be good.
As for the start, I think we could settle on the spot pretty comfortably, lots of forests and floodplains, ought to be good.
Morred
Warlord
Turn 1: I settle on the spot and begin production of a worker, start researching Agriculture.
Turn 3: Pop a hut for 57 Gold
Turn 6: Borders pop and we pop a hut for 31 Gold.
We meet Saladin
Turn 7: The villagers of the south provide us with a map of the north.
IBT: We get attacked by a wolf by survive
Turn 9: Agriculture -> Mysticism
The villagers of the north provide us with a map of the south.
Turn 15: Buddhism FIDAL
Turn 16: Mysticism -> Bronze Working
Worker -> warrior
It turns out that Saladin was the one that founded Buddhism, meanwhile our worker gets started on our resources.
Turn 18: We pop a hut for experience. Next turn our scout will have 2 moves through forest!
Turn 20: Amazing! We pop *another* hut for experience, our scout now has 11 exp! Now then, decision time, do we go with Combat 1 or Gorilla (excuse the improper spelling) 1?
Turn 21: I decide to go combat 1, which means that this scout can hold it's own against attacking warriors in forests, or forested hills. This will also give our scout a very nice advantage of the Strength two Lion/Panther.
IBT: As if to prove this point, a lion attacks us, we quickly dispatch it.
Turn 25: Warrior -> Warrior
Turn 26: Hinduism FIDAL
Turn 29: Pop a hut for 38 Gold.
Turn 30: Bronze Working -> Meditation
Warrior -> Warrior
We revolt to Bronze Working, meaning we're in anarchy.
Meanwhile, with Copper revealed, I scout around to try and see a place with copper, and I think I have a great site for our next city.
Two health resources, copper, near a river and it also has two floodplain tiles, plus it is on the coast. That's a pretty nice spot.
Turn 35: Warrior -> Settler It is due in 11, so I'm not sure whether to chop it or not, I'll leave the ones in the radius for now, I can chop some useless ones outside the radius. I move our newly created warrior to city site number two.
Turn 38: Meditation -> Priesthood
Okay, our settler has just been chopped, due next turn. I suggest we aim for the Oracle (Or Stonehenge then Oracle) next, there are three turns until Priesthood is due, so that could be three turns on a Warrior or something else, I'll leave it up to the next person.
Good luck guys!
Turn 3: Pop a hut for 57 Gold
Turn 6: Borders pop and we pop a hut for 31 Gold.
We meet Saladin
Turn 7: The villagers of the south provide us with a map of the north.
IBT: We get attacked by a wolf by survive
Turn 9: Agriculture -> Mysticism
The villagers of the north provide us with a map of the south.
Turn 15: Buddhism FIDAL
Turn 16: Mysticism -> Bronze Working
Worker -> warrior
It turns out that Saladin was the one that founded Buddhism, meanwhile our worker gets started on our resources.
Turn 18: We pop a hut for experience. Next turn our scout will have 2 moves through forest!
Turn 20: Amazing! We pop *another* hut for experience, our scout now has 11 exp! Now then, decision time, do we go with Combat 1 or Gorilla (excuse the improper spelling) 1?
Turn 21: I decide to go combat 1, which means that this scout can hold it's own against attacking warriors in forests, or forested hills. This will also give our scout a very nice advantage of the Strength two Lion/Panther.
IBT: As if to prove this point, a lion attacks us, we quickly dispatch it.
Turn 25: Warrior -> Warrior
Turn 26: Hinduism FIDAL
Turn 29: Pop a hut for 38 Gold.
Turn 30: Bronze Working -> Meditation
Warrior -> Warrior
We revolt to Bronze Working, meaning we're in anarchy.
Meanwhile, with Copper revealed, I scout around to try and see a place with copper, and I think I have a great site for our next city.
Two health resources, copper, near a river and it also has two floodplain tiles, plus it is on the coast. That's a pretty nice spot.
Turn 35: Warrior -> Settler It is due in 11, so I'm not sure whether to chop it or not, I'll leave the ones in the radius for now, I can chop some useless ones outside the radius. I move our newly created warrior to city site number two.
Turn 38: Meditation -> Priesthood
Okay, our settler has just been chopped, due next turn. I suggest we aim for the Oracle (Or Stonehenge then Oracle) next, there are three turns until Priesthood is due, so that could be three turns on a Warrior or something else, I'll leave it up to the next person.
Good luck guys!
Morred
Warlord
and the save!
Sina
Warlord
I had a look at the save. Great starting position! We could actually have a chance to get it all done. Those hills have to be mined asap though. We'll go into wonder mode now and then we need production more than anything else.
Masonry is the one tech we must not research before we used the GP as it would point the Prophet to research Monotheism/Theology instead of CS. That is really important if we don't want to spend 50+ turns to research CS and I would prefer not to.
Masonry is the one tech we must not research before we used the GP as it would point the Prophet to research Monotheism/Theology instead of CS. That is really important if we don't want to spend 50+ turns to research CS and I would prefer not to.
chriseay
The Master Trader
Sina said:Masonry is the one tech we must not research before we used the GP as it would point the Prophet to research Monotheism/Theology instead of CS. That is really important if we don't want to spend 50+ turns to research CS and I would prefer not to.
I think that's the most important thing we have to remember! If we work it right, which it looks good so far, we'll sure be able to do that. I'll take a look at the save tonight and work up a dotmap if we've got enough explored to make it feasible.
Roster:
chriseay
beestar
Morred - Just played
Woebearer - Up now!! (20 turns)
Sina - On Deck
Snaproll
Morred
Warlord
We have a fair bit explored, the only problem is that my suggested second city site (which I like, as it is the only see-able copper source) is actually backwards of Saladin. If we're worried about him expanding too much too early, we may want to grab a city closer to the middle of the map.
In repsonse to where to put our second city, I think we HAVE to get that copper next. With it we can ignore miltary techs for a while (even archery) and build Axes instead.
2400 Preflight - Looks good to me...
2360 (1) - Settler -> Barrack. Adjust to max food in Moscow. Growth and Priesthood in 2 turns. Move worker to start another chop, which will be done when we are working on the Oracle. Try to get a better view of the NW to see what Dot map options we have. Will dump a couple of shields into Barracks while I wait to start on Priesthood. Very curious about what is to our south, but we won't have someone down there for a while, as all our troops are busy with protection and exploring elsewhere.
2320 (2) - Move our fellows around a bit, reveal some Fish to the NW, but nothing that would make me want to change the dot map up.
2280 (3) - Priesthood -> Writing. Our Northwest is icy, so I send the scouts down to start exploring south of Moscow. Switch Moscow to Oracle. We are at our happy limit, so I switch us to a +1fpt 7hpt diet. Once this chop is finished I might mine up at least one hill before chopping another forest. Oracle due in 22 turns.
2240 (4) - Chop come in, Oracle now due in 17 turns. Warriors discover Salam to our east. The land over there is pretty barren, so I will see what is available to the southwest with the scout.
2200 (5) - Found St. Pete. start a Warrior. Send the Warrior escort to explore the SW.
2160 (6) - Start Mining hill west of Moscow.
2120 (7) - zzzz
2080 (8) - Our Warrior to the east gets eaten by a lion.
2040 (9) - zzzz
2000 (10) - Find coast south of Moscow.
1960 (11) -Livy declares us the 7th most advanced. Boarder pops in Moscow, revealing the north coast with some fishes. This is good news, with the next two cities we can cut off Sal from our western lands.
1920 (12) - Start next chop, plains adjacent to river.
1880 (13) - Writing -> Husbandry. Get open boarders with Salam. Unless they have nowhere else to go, AI civs will not cross borders to settle. We can always kick out any attempt to poach our lands by cancleing the deal.
1840 (14) - We indeed have the southwest to ourselves, and its pretty good land too. Chop complete, Oracle next turn.
1800 (15) - Oracle complete, learn CoL of course. Get Confusionism (in St. Pete), make it our religion. Send missionary to Moscow.
1760 (16) - Come out of Anarchy. Start Library in Moscow, but will switch it to Temple when the missionary arrives, which will give us the happiness we need to grow and a priest to add to the GP count.
1720 (17) - Scouts in forest killed by Barbs, so much for the triple promotion. They served well. Missionary due in Moscow next turn.
1680 (18) - Get boarder pop and Warrior in St. Pete. Start work on a Library for the next three turns till we get to size 3 and will start worker. Spread Conf to Moscow, switch to Temple and high food configuration for growth next turn.
1640 (19) - Judism FDL, Whip temple for 3 pop (only put 1 hammer into it last turn just to cut zero production penalty). A severe whip, but adding the priest next turn will be giving us a total of 10 GP points, which gets us our Proph faster, get CS out of the way, and then we can get to some real teching.
1600 (20) - AH -> Poly. Poly will come about the same time as our GP is born (8 turns).
Notes for the future despot:
On the next turn, switch the St. Pete production to worker and start farming and get that Copper hooked up ASAP (obviously we need Wheel to do so, also a single road will link St. Pete to Moscow via the long river). Build/Whip/Chop at least two Axes ASAP to help secure our territory against the soon to be comming barbs. The build que in Moscow is just there to show what we already have starts on, not neccesarly what we need to build next. DO NOT turn off the priest, it is our ticket out of this tech purgatory this varrient put us in.
Over all I think we are in good shape to get the Pyramids. We don't have stone, but we have some forests in range that we can chop. Also we are well ahead of Sina's test run dispite not getting Stonehenge. I wouldn't be adverse to cutting down every forest in Moscow to get the job done quickly.
As far as expansion goes, I would use two cities to cut the west off, and then push east as much as possible and pick up as much decent land from Sal's side as possible before picking up the much more fertile land to our west. If Sal starts to send settlers past our boarders then I wouldn't be afraid to cancel the open boarders and evict them. We are at odds now because of our religions, so I would expect some tensions in the future anyways.
On techs, I would think Wheel/Mysticism is the way to go. That will give us the opportunity to connect up our resources, connect our distant cities, and have a very good chance at beating the other civs to Pyramids.
2400 Preflight - Looks good to me...
2360 (1) - Settler -> Barrack. Adjust to max food in Moscow. Growth and Priesthood in 2 turns. Move worker to start another chop, which will be done when we are working on the Oracle. Try to get a better view of the NW to see what Dot map options we have. Will dump a couple of shields into Barracks while I wait to start on Priesthood. Very curious about what is to our south, but we won't have someone down there for a while, as all our troops are busy with protection and exploring elsewhere.
2320 (2) - Move our fellows around a bit, reveal some Fish to the NW, but nothing that would make me want to change the dot map up.
2280 (3) - Priesthood -> Writing. Our Northwest is icy, so I send the scouts down to start exploring south of Moscow. Switch Moscow to Oracle. We are at our happy limit, so I switch us to a +1fpt 7hpt diet. Once this chop is finished I might mine up at least one hill before chopping another forest. Oracle due in 22 turns.
2240 (4) - Chop come in, Oracle now due in 17 turns. Warriors discover Salam to our east. The land over there is pretty barren, so I will see what is available to the southwest with the scout.
2200 (5) - Found St. Pete. start a Warrior. Send the Warrior escort to explore the SW.
2160 (6) - Start Mining hill west of Moscow.
2120 (7) - zzzz
2080 (8) - Our Warrior to the east gets eaten by a lion.
2040 (9) - zzzz
2000 (10) - Find coast south of Moscow.
1960 (11) -Livy declares us the 7th most advanced. Boarder pops in Moscow, revealing the north coast with some fishes. This is good news, with the next two cities we can cut off Sal from our western lands.
1920 (12) - Start next chop, plains adjacent to river.
1880 (13) - Writing -> Husbandry. Get open boarders with Salam. Unless they have nowhere else to go, AI civs will not cross borders to settle. We can always kick out any attempt to poach our lands by cancleing the deal.
1840 (14) - We indeed have the southwest to ourselves, and its pretty good land too. Chop complete, Oracle next turn.
1800 (15) - Oracle complete, learn CoL of course. Get Confusionism (in St. Pete), make it our religion. Send missionary to Moscow.
1760 (16) - Come out of Anarchy. Start Library in Moscow, but will switch it to Temple when the missionary arrives, which will give us the happiness we need to grow and a priest to add to the GP count.
1720 (17) - Scouts in forest killed by Barbs, so much for the triple promotion. They served well. Missionary due in Moscow next turn.
1680 (18) - Get boarder pop and Warrior in St. Pete. Start work on a Library for the next three turns till we get to size 3 and will start worker. Spread Conf to Moscow, switch to Temple and high food configuration for growth next turn.
1640 (19) - Judism FDL, Whip temple for 3 pop (only put 1 hammer into it last turn just to cut zero production penalty). A severe whip, but adding the priest next turn will be giving us a total of 10 GP points, which gets us our Proph faster, get CS out of the way, and then we can get to some real teching.
1600 (20) - AH -> Poly. Poly will come about the same time as our GP is born (8 turns).
Notes for the future despot:
On the next turn, switch the St. Pete production to worker and start farming and get that Copper hooked up ASAP (obviously we need Wheel to do so, also a single road will link St. Pete to Moscow via the long river). Build/Whip/Chop at least two Axes ASAP to help secure our territory against the soon to be comming barbs. The build que in Moscow is just there to show what we already have starts on, not neccesarly what we need to build next. DO NOT turn off the priest, it is our ticket out of this tech purgatory this varrient put us in.
Over all I think we are in good shape to get the Pyramids. We don't have stone, but we have some forests in range that we can chop. Also we are well ahead of Sina's test run dispite not getting Stonehenge. I wouldn't be adverse to cutting down every forest in Moscow to get the job done quickly.
As far as expansion goes, I would use two cities to cut the west off, and then push east as much as possible and pick up as much decent land from Sal's side as possible before picking up the much more fertile land to our west. If Sal starts to send settlers past our boarders then I wouldn't be afraid to cancel the open boarders and evict them. We are at odds now because of our religions, so I would expect some tensions in the future anyways.
On techs, I would think Wheel/Mysticism is the way to go. That will give us the opportunity to connect up our resources, connect our distant cities, and have a very good chance at beating the other civs to Pyramids.
chriseay
The Master Trader
Looks good Woebearer....how long till the prophet? If we are up to 10 GPP per turn, it will have to be during the next turn set, right? We should probably try to set it up so Masonry finishes a turn or two after the prophet pops and we get CS.
Looking at the globeview, I'm not seeing any stone, so those chops in Moscow may be our ticket to the pyramids. If we do any chops, let's just go whole hog about it.
I agree with your expansion ideas, though it will be a difficult way to go east. There seems to be a large desert over there. My two preliminary choices would be on the river southeast of moscow, and then on the coast with the rice and cows.
We will need a save before we can do any of this though!
Roster:
chriseay
beestar
Morred
Woebearer - Just played and has us well on the way to our first goal!!
Sina - Up Now (I guess we'll go with 15 turns, these turnsets seem to be working out a little better on the even numbers, so I'll ride the wave)
Snaproll - On deck
Looking at the globeview, I'm not seeing any stone, so those chops in Moscow may be our ticket to the pyramids. If we do any chops, let's just go whole hog about it.
I agree with your expansion ideas, though it will be a difficult way to go east. There seems to be a large desert over there. My two preliminary choices would be on the river southeast of moscow, and then on the coast with the rice and cows.
We will need a save before we can do any of this though!
Roster:
chriseay
beestar
Morred
Woebearer - Just played and has us well on the way to our first goal!!
Sina - Up Now (I guess we'll go with 15 turns, these turnsets seem to be working out a little better on the even numbers, so I'll ride the wave)
Snaproll - On deck
Looks like good stuff here! I've never actually tried the CS slingshot before, but it was sure fun to see Confucianism founded before Judaism! I agree with the others - we've got a real chance at the Pyramids still. I don't think an all - out worker chop is necessary (although we'll certainly want to do a few). With all that food and all those plains hills, Moscow can really pump out the shields, and I think we could build it from scratch and have a really good shot at grabbing it. Need to mine those hills, though.
chriseay
The Master Trader
Snaproll said:
Good point on the chopping...it looks like there are only four forests in the fat cross anyway. Maybe if we can figure out which one's we won't ever be using anyway, they can be put towards it. And, if you will, excuse my enthusiam before on the chopping, this is just working out better than I thought it might. I got a little excited.
Sina
Warlord
I think we should make a dotmap around Moscow, so that we know which forrests just outside we'll need for another city and which ones we don't. I haven't made a dotmap before, so I'd be grateful if somebody else could. 
The start went very well, I agree. Now we just need to have some axes around before getting swarmed by barbs. I'll try my best to get that done.
I'll wait with playing until we have made a dotmap (should the save come up soon).
The start went very well, I agree. Now we just need to have some axes around before getting swarmed by barbs. I'll try my best to get that done.
I'll wait with playing until we have made a dotmap (should the save come up soon).
chriseay
The Master Trader
Ok, here's my preliminary dotmap for some chops and city placements. Keep in mind this is from the very zoomed out screenshot posted by Woebearer, as I can't access the game right now.
The two city placements will seal off our borders to allow us to back fill more at our leisure, and blue dot will allow for a chop before settling to go towards pyramids. From this view I don't see how we'll have cities using the trees marked with yellow slashes, so I think those are the ones that can be cut. My plan would be to settle further east than the trees, by the wheat and cows and to use the fish with a city on the west side of the water.
The two city placements will seal off our borders to allow us to back fill more at our leisure, and blue dot will allow for a chop before settling to go towards pyramids. From this view I don't see how we'll have cities using the trees marked with yellow slashes, so I think those are the ones that can be cut. My plan would be to settle further east than the trees, by the wheat and cows and to use the fish with a city on the west side of the water.
