ct3 - Chieftain Training Day (for newbies only)

[LKendter]

When you say Cultural victory - is this 20000 pts in one city, or 100,000 pts total. It is a different strategy to play for each. Either way, you want to build the high culture wonders such as the Great Library.

If 100K win, then you need to maximize the number of cities on the land mass. A small city with mostly water can still build a temple, library, etc.

 

[BoBtheBUILDER]

Here's an example of what I was discussing before when I talked about "breadcrumbs." From what I've been able to see the map generator tends to leave little pockets of sea tiles in the middle of oceans, usually in strings. When you follow these random sea tile pockets it usually allows you (if you can sail on sea tiles) to find the other continents.

The Great Lighthouse allows our sea units to safely traverse sea tiles, not ocean tiles. So why is the trireme in the ocean instead of on one of the two sea tiles you passed? By following these breadcrumbs that the map generator left us we might be able to find the other civs. This is an avenue that won't be open to them until they discover the appropriate advances.

BoB

 

[BoBtheBUILDER]

LK is right... we're going to have to map out how we're going to get there via culture (if we're going to get there that way). I finally finished to a cultural conclusion in one of my other games. I actually made 100K civ 10 turns faster than a 20K city. My 20K city had virtually every wonder in it, but it still took me past 2000 to get the culture victory. I had a ton of cities on that map which is why I think I was able to get the civ culture win, that and I was the Iriquois and their religious trait made it a no-brainer to build temples and cathedrals as soon as they were available.

So what do you guys want to do? I think waiting till we discover the other civs might take to long to determine how we're going to win this thing, though Padma's probably right... we'll probably take it which ever way we decide to go.

BoB

 

[mcdan]

Originally posted by BoBtheBUILDER
Here's an example of what I was discussing before when I talked about "breadcrumbs." From what I've been able to see the map generator tends to leave little pockets of sea tiles in the middle of oceans, usually in strings. When you follow these random sea tile pockets it usually allows you (if you can sail on sea tiles) to find the other continents.

The Great Lighthouse allows our sea units to safely traverse sea tiles, not ocean tiles.

BoB

Thanks - this was very helpful - Never knew about "breadcrumbs" before! Plus I had made the mistake of assuming sea equaled ocean tiles.

Thanks also to Bob and Padma re: how to upload screen shots, print screen shots etc. Am now able to do this and appriecate the time you took to share the info.

 

[mcdan]

Originally posted by BoBtheBUILDER
LK is right... we're going to have to map out how we're going to get there via culture (if we're going to get there that way). I finally finished to a cultural conclusion in one of my other games. I actually made 100K civ 10 turns faster than a 20K city. My 20K city had virtually every wonder in it, but it still took me past 2000 to get the culture victory. I had a ton of cities on that map which is why I think I was able to get the civ culture win, that and I was the Iriquois and their religious trait made it a no-brainer to build temples and cathedrals as soon as they were available.

So what do you guys want to do? I think waiting till we discover the other civs might take to long to determine how we're going to win this thing, though Padma's probably right... we'll probably take it which ever way we decide to go.

BoB

Looks like Cultural Victory is the way to go at this point. I don't know if we can get it by 2000. I've never played or won via CV so am complete newbie regarding this tactic. Sounds like we might aim to the 80-100K civ vs. the one city. Either way - it's back to the Great Library

Surely Diplomatic Vic. is out since there is no trade with other cultures -and no relations with neighbors- and I assume it will take some time to develop relations once we do make contact. (We don't have to mention our violent defeat of the Zulu )

Would like feedback on single city vs. civ victory. I know that putting "all our eggs in one basket" with the super- culture city can be risky but so far I don't see any threat of capture of a certain city. All this will change I realize since we are just in 640 AD.

I guess plans for CV would include continuing with producing wonders, gaining culture points and beefing up defense. Two of our cities are in the "top five" right now and as already stated by others we are the only culture with completed wonders.

 

[LKendter]

If it is 640 AD, then you pretty much have to go for 100K culture win. I have won 20K city more then once, but I started working on it from 4000BC. The single city usually requires a high-shield coastal city. My 20K wins usually include Pyramids, Great Library and Collusus at bare minimum for ancient wonders.

 

[stwils]

But since the Great Library becomes obsolete with Education, won't its culture points be subtracted then?

stwils

 

[LKendter]

NO - The Great Library always count toward cutlure till the end of the game.

If fact, I love to complete that before 700 AD and get a large amount of turns with the double culture bonus for 1000+ year old buildings.

 

[stwils]

Thanks for clearing that up.

So do all of you think we should have gone for the Great Library as soon as we got Literature? Padma seemed to think IIRC that we were ahead in techs of the other civs out there and there was no big need. Or maybe I misunderstood.

And now for a question. (Thank goodness this is a Chieftain Training Day game and we can ask questions and not look too bad ) We have several cities with Libraries giving us 3 culture points per city per Library. So if we have 6 cities with Libraries, that will give us 18 culture points, more than the Great Library with its 6 per civ.

So if we miss getting the Gr. Library, couldn't we ring up a good bit of culture points with the smaller libraries in each city?

Wondering and trying to learn this game...

stwils

 

[LKendter]

To pull of 100K culute you need temple, library, cathedral and university in every city. You still want to snag wonders - it isn't just you gaining the culture points - it is also you keeping them AWAY from the AI.

100K culture requires that you DOUBLE the nearest AI in culture.

From a tech standpoint of view - the GL is useless. From a culture point of view - it rocks.

 

[Padma]

First: Listen to General Lee! (LKendter)

He knows what he is talking about.

I haven't had a chance, yet, to look at stwil's move (busy weekend ). Some quick thoughts:

Yeah, lot's of worker actions. That's normal in a SG. In fact, in a standard SG, you will aften see the acronym MMOW. It means Much Movement Of Workers. Right now, I want to see what the workers are doing - that's part of a Training Day Game. When you know better what you are doing (and why!) then when you play a SG you can leave out all the little details; everyone will assume you are doing the logical things.

Yeah, there was some going on there, but to be honest, a lot of us can get a bit "fixated" and miss obvious things.

I'll download and do a full critique later. I'll try to get it tonight (Sunday) but it might be tomorrow.

 

[stwils]

Thanks Padma. I hope you will look at all my workers' doings and see if I was on track or not. That's why I recorded it all in such detail. I'll admit I became overly focused on workers' movements and writing the movements down and perhaps lost sight of some important things.

And I was very intent on getting our galleys sailing. Sure messed some of that up. Why didn't I put a Settler on the first galley? (Well, actually, there were no settlers ready at the time so I sent the spearman onward... Maybe I should have waited.) But there are other "loaded" galleys sailing...

Please tell me if the things produced by each city were on target.
I don't know much about aquaducts... and I changed some things around to get settlers and workers.

And I don't know about my choosing Engineering as the next advance. Maybe we should have gone for Theology and then gotten the Sistine Chapel. But then I didn't want us to get behind on the road to Gunpowder just in case...

Anyway...
stwils

 

[Padma]

Well, I tried walking through your turns, stwils, but all those worker actions lost me.

One thing I could see wrong with them, though, was failure to road a tile before leaving it. Always always always! road a tile before a worker leaves! It costs more, both in time and gold, to come back and do it later.

The workers east of Babylon - are they preparing for a new city there? Otherwise, they are pretty much wasting turns. The tiles they are working on will not be used by any city currently on the map.

Oh, and some of these aren't stwil's "errors", but probably belong to others (maybe even the AI): For instance, there is a bonus grassland west of Babylon that is irrigated. It should be mined instead. And the Wheat south of Babylon should be irrigated, not mined. The hills near Ulundi should be mined. There are enough floodplain tiles irrigated now to last for quite a while. By Tarsus - general rule - desert should be mined, and floodplains irrigated.

There's probably more "worker weed", but that's enough for now.

Missing the science slider was some minor It probably won't be much effect here, but in a higher level game it could make a big difference.

That galley needs to get off the Ocean before it founders! I am sure we can follow some Sea "Breadcrumbs" to see more of the map, and hopefully the next continent. You can tell that Sea tiles are lighter than Ocean, and Coast are lighter still.

As far as the Great Library goes, refer to General Lee's posts above. We might want the GL, if just to keep it out of the AI's hands. If you guys want to go for the 100000 point civ Culture Victory, that's fine, but you will need to work on temples, libraries, Cathedrals, etc., as well as Wonders.

Oh, by the way, that temple in Bapedi could be rushed for about 200 gold, if you want.

I don't know much about aquaducts...

Aquaducts are used to allow a city to grow beyond size 6 when it isn't on fresh water. A city on a river, or a lake, doesn't need an aquaduct.

And I don't know about my choosing Engineering as the next advance. Maybe we should have gone for Theology and then gotten the Sistine Chapel. But then I didn't want us to get behind on the road to Gunpowder just in case...

"Life is just a series of choices." Some of it depends on the victory condition we decide to go for. Sistine is nice from a Culture point of view. But Engineering is good, too. it leads to Invention, and Leo's. Another option is to go for Chivalry, and get Knights. That is the "warmonger" option.

Essentially a "solid" if not "inspired" turn. We've got a good number of workers, some settlers coming, and a lot of infrastructure building.

Turn Order

archer_007
stwils
BoBtheBUILDER >>> UP NOW
mcdan >>> On Deck
rwprice

 

[BoBtheBUILDER]

Well, I'll make this my official "got it" post. I'll try to play tomorrow night... as always my schedule is usually determined by my daughters' schedule.

BoB

 

[BoBtheBUILDER]

Preturn

Okay, I'm going to try and make some reasonable deductions here. War has had to have decimated the other civs. We've discovered easily half of the map and they are no where to be found yet. It's probably a reasonable assumption that there are one or a few major landmasses left and that the principal cities on those masses (the top 5) are size 4 at MOST.

Conquest is going to be the way to go with this game. We're going to have vastly superior military by province of our research. The other civs have little trust amongst themselves already. Culture victory is probably out of reach at this point. We have 1727 culture points so far, 96,073 away from the number required to win. I figured that at our current culture rate of production (41/turn) it would take over 2000 turns to reach our goal. Realizing that our rate will go up in time, I am still finding it hard to believe we'd make our deadline. I'm going to keep at culture building but this is something we should keep in mind.

City Checks
Ulundi - I move one citizen from an unimproved desert tile to an improved (irrigated) flood plain tile.
Arbela - Looks to be in good shape. Once the worker is done we'll have to start on a cultural improvement
Bapedi - I move one citizen from an unimproved tile to the tile currently being improved.
Antioch - Everything looks fine but it is going to need irrigated tiles in order to grow in the future. Since it's not on a coastline it won't get the food benefits a harbor provides. After it's next growth it will not be able to expand. Given that reality I change production from an Aqueduct to The Great Library (complete in 51 turns). It's a cheap wonder that gives us a culture boost.
Tarsus - Now Tarsus is stuck at six and just waiting to pop and we're building a Library here instead of an aqueduct? Hrmm. I change production to Aqueduct (complete in 16 turns). I also move one citizen from working a floodplain tile to a desert tile (might as well get some production out of them since it can't grow yet.
Gordium - Everything looks fine here
Bactra - It says growth in 4 turns but we're at size 6 and don't have an aqueduct here either. I switch production from Temple to Aqueduct (complete in 16 turns). I may purchase that on turn three.
Sidon - We're going to have growth issues here but at least it is on a coastal tile and we can build a harbor here.
Tyre - We're working the best tiles here. I leave well enough alone. I switch production from Immortal to Pikeman for better defense.
Persepolis - Things look good here as well.
Babylon - ditto
Zimbabwe - ditto
Pasargade - Size 6 here and growth in ten turns. I change production to Aqueduct (complete in 9 turns) so that it'll be able to grow when it is ready.
Suza - I move a citizen from working the iron tile to the mined grassland tile so that it can continue to grow. I change back to the iron when I realize that there's no aqueduct here either. I change production to Aqueduct (complete in 9 turns) so that we can get some growth here as well.

Otherwise things look good. We're doing deficit research but we've got a good sized treasury and we might as well get cracking as long as we have the tech lead. Oh wait... we DON'T have the tech lead! Sid says we're moderately advanced. We have got to figure out what's going on in the rest of the world! On that note...

1: 650 AD
Pasargadae celebrates "We love the Emperor Day"
Arbela completes worker, I change production to Aqueduct to allow future population growth.
Sidon completes worker, I change production to Harbor to allow access to population growth tiles.
Surprise, surprise.... we lose the galley to "trecharous waters."
Worker outside Babylon completes (something). I move him to tile NNW of Arbela to begin mine.
Worker stack (5) NW of Bactra begins mine.
Immortal W of Bactra garrisons Bactra.
Worker W of Gordium begins mine.
Worker in Arbela moves to tile NNW of Arblea and begins mine.
Worker SSE of Pasargadae wastes turn due to user error.
Worker SW of Antioch moves to tile SW of Pasargadae to begin irrigation line to NW part of island.
Worker in Sidon moves to tile SW of Pasargadae to begin irrigation line to NW part of island.
Northern galley moves toward N city site
Southern galley moves toward E city site, finds a sea tile breadcrumb to the south.
Worker ESE of Zimbabwe begins road.

2: 660 AD
Well, I'm a moron and don't think to make a slider adjustment last turn and so we've got Engineering but didn't get a gold bonus for it. I order up Theology since cutlure seems to be of strong interest among the team.
Babylon finishes settler, I change production to Sun Tzu's Art of War (complete in 60 turns). If we want to switch it could be a pre-build for the Sistine Chapel.
Pasargade's influence expands.
Ulundi produces a Cathedral (it's at size 12!!!). I order production changed to The Great Wall (complete in 15 turns).
Worker SSE of Ulundi completes irrigation and begins road.
Worker stack (2) WNW of Tarsus completes mine and begins road.
Settler in Babylon heads to forest tile four tiles NE with spearman escorting.
Worker N of Bactra finishes ?irrigation? and moves N to complete road to new city.
Worker ESE of Pasargadae moves to tile NW of Zimbabwe to build road.
Worker N of Suza moves to begine irrigation linie to NW part of island.
Southern galley discovers new island!

3: 670 AD
Persepolis produces cathedral and begins The Great Library (complete in 20 turns), I change Antioch to cathedral (complete in 14 turns).
Zimbabwe produces cathedral and begins Colisseum (complete in 9 turns).
Worker ESE of Zimbabwe completes road, moves SW to begin mine.
Worker stack (2) NNW of Arbela completes mine. I shift citizen to work that tile. Stack moves SW to build road.
Worker ENE of Babylon begins road to new city.
Worker NE of Bapedi finishes mine and begins road.
Southern galley offloads settler and immortal on newly discovered island.

4: 680 AD
Zimbabwe celebrates "We love the Emperor Day!"
Worker stack (5) NW of Bactra completes mine, moves N to irrigate (they don't build a road so the iron is not connected).
Worker W of Gordium builds road.
Sardis founded NE of Babylon.
Worker SSE of Ulundi moves NW to bring mine.
Worker stack (2) NW of Tarsus completes road and moves two tile NE to build road.
Samaria founded on new island and begins temple.
I purchase completion of the aqueduct in Tarsus for 284 gold.
Northern galley offloads settler and spearman and begins exploring sea tiles (went too far... may lose this one).
Southern galley explores sea tiles.
Worker on irrigation corridor begins.

5: 690 AD
Tarsus completes aqueduct and begins temple.
Gordium completes library and begins marketplace.
Dammit... for all my lecturing I miscount moves and the northern galley sinks. Sorry guys!
Hamadan founded on northern city site on big island and begins a temple.
Worker stack (2) S of Sardis complete road and move NW to begin mine.
Worker stack (5) NNW of Bactra begins and completes irrigation and begins road.
Southern galley discovers another island with a goody hut, whales and iron.
Worker on irrigation corridor continues.

6: 700 AD
Worker W of Gordium completes road and moves SE to begin mine.
Worker stack (2) NW of Arbela completes road and moves SW to begin clearing jungle.
Worker on irrigation corridor continues.
Worker stack (5) NNW of Bactra completes road and moves WSW of Arbela to begin clearing jungle.
Worker NE of Bapedi completes road and moves NW to begin mine.
I check science slider but we don't get any bonus adjusting it for next turn, so I leave it.

7: 710 AD
Worker on irrigation corridor continues.
We finish Theology and begin Invention (researched in six turns after adjusting to 60% science).
Worker NW of Gordium completes something and moves 2 tiles S to start clearing jungle.
Worker SE of Zimbabwe completes mine and begins road.
Worker NW of Zimbabwe completes road and moves E to begin mine.
Worker stack (2) N of Tarsus complete road and move S to begin road.

8: 720 AD
Zimbabwe ends "We love the Emperor" celebration
Pasargadae completes Aqueduct. I change production to Library.
Gordium begins general unrest. I give them an entertainer.
Worker stack (2) SW of Sardis completes mine and begins road.

9: 730 AD
We love the Emperor day celebrated in Persepolis.
Susa completes aqueduct, I change production to temple.
Tyre completes Pikeman, I change production to temple.
Worker SW of Gordium completes mine and moves SW to begin clearing jungle.
Worker stack (2) SW of Sardis completes road and moves NW to begin road.
Worker SE of Zimbabwe moves W to begin mine.
Worker stack (2) N of Tarsus moves toward Zimbabwe to begin clearing jungle.
Southern galley makes contact! The Greek city Knosos is about 10 tiles SE of Bapedi
Alexander is cautious towards us, our military outnumbers his, they are in awe of our culture, we are technologically advanced, they have the horseman and fear our immortals. They have contact with the Egyptians and the Romans and have not yet discovered Currency or the Republic. They have Dyes and Silks but are not able to trade with us. I count a total of seven Greek cities. I make no deals, I figure I'll leave diplomacy to the next player.

10: 740 AD
The southern galley discovers Knossos is on an island an there is a larger island neighboring it with another Greek city.

Conclusion
Nothing too exciting... I'm sorry for the galley mishaps. I wasn't looking at how many turns I had left when I moved it out there. We did expand our city count by a few and have a chance to make contact with some other civs. That should prove promising!

Here's a mini version of our world map:

Here's the save:
Xeres of the Persians, 740 AD

 

[Padma]

Originally posted by BoBtheBUILDER
Nothing too exciting

We found the other Civs! (Or one of them, at least, and Alex knows where the others are!)

Good move on delaying the diplomacy for the next player. When a major event like that happens at the end of your turn, that is usually the best bet.

We need to try to get contact with the others from Alex. But don't "sell the store" to do it. Trading Republic or Currency or even a (fairly) hefty sum of gold would be okay. (And do any trading on our turn, not the AI's, or you will find our traded techs will be sold to the others before we can do it.) If Alex insists on ridiculous amounts, just keep exploring with that galley. The larger eastern island may lead to the other continent, or even be the edge of the continent itself.

Try to get World Maps. But beware, if our home continent isn't pretty well "locked up", then they will likely send hordes of settlers to grab our open spots.

Zimbabwe ends "We love the Emperor" celebration
Gordium begins general unrest. I give them an entertainer.

Why did the WLTE Day end? And why did Gordium fall into disorder? I am guessing they both grew, and added an unhappy citizen. That's the kind of thing that needs to be watched, especially on higher levels. Oh, and unless the city is out on the fringe and hopelessly corrupt, it is usually better to raise the Lux tax than to use an Entertainer. An Entertainer costs all the food, shields, and gold that citizen would produce, every turn. A 10% raise in Lux Tax often costs less, and at least spreads the "pain" around your entire Civ (and reaps the benefits of happier people and possible WLTK Days in other cities).

I'll give a more complete critique after I download the save, which might not be until tomorrow.

 

[BoBtheBUILDER]

Couldn't we just buy a world map and not worry about trading away techs that would get us more when we trade with the more advanced civs? We've got a ridiculous amount of cash.

I wasn't that excited about meeting the Greeks because they don't seem to have much to offer. We can save money by buying a map off them and have our galley find the other two civs.

On the happiness thing, I believe both changes occured after the discovery of Theology. Problem with Theology is that it cancels the effect of the Oracle. I'm guessing whatever was making people happy in those towns had something to do with The Oracle.

BoB

 

[Padma]

Originally posted by BoBtheBUILDER
Couldn't we just buy a world map ...

Let me reply with a quote from my post:

Originally posted by Padma
... or even a (fairly) hefty sum of gold would be okay.

That was for getting contact, but we can see what they would accept. Like I said, if it's too much, we simply find them ourselves. (Besides, a World Map might just show us where they are, anyway.)

Originally posted by BoBtheBUILDER
I believe both changes occured after the discovery of Theology.

Yep, I forgot we just got that. The Oracle doubles the effects of Temples. Temples make an unhappy person content. So some content people became unhappy again. But again, it's the kind of change we need to watch for.

 

[Padma]

Final Critique - so we can get this thing moving!

Remember to establish an Embassy with each Civ as we discover it - makes them much easier to deal with.

The improvements south of Zimbabwe are leaning awfully heavy on mines. Some of those should be irrigation, instead (the non-bonus grasslands) and the mines built in the hills.

Generally, what we're building is okay, but we need more settlers. We have some major gaps in our coverage of the continent, and we have that new "horse island" to the Northeast to fill before the Greeks (or others) get to it.

I did some quick checking - and we can buy the Greek World Map for *less than* 100 gold. (I'll let you find out how much less. ) Communications with another civ is a little more expensive - they want a tech - like Currency. I'll leave that to your call.

Nice job of moving Irrigation up to the northwest. I wouldn't bother irrigating too many desert tiles. They are generally better mined. But ya gotta do some just to get the irrigation up there. Then irrigate some of those plains tiles.

Check my earlier post for other comments.

Turn Order

archer_007
stwils
BoBtheBUILDER
mcdan >>> UP NOW
rwprice >>> On Deck

BTW, wait till you see how advanced our opponents are during the next set of turns.

 

[mcdan]

Got It !

(Hope I figure out how to get "less than 100 gold" for the Greek world map!)