CTIV-1: The Turtle Game

[mjj55409]

I've started using culture bombs only if I happen to be at war and have recently captured a border city. But even in that case, they are much less effective later in the game.

Speaking of war, it occured to me last night that we may not go to war at all in this game. We have kept a strong military, which is an effective deterret, and we have 2 peaceful neighbors.

 

[chriseay]

Culture bombs are less effective with large culture cities (at least in the short term) ... while we might grab one or both of the two windmills, I don't think we'd get the crabs for awhile (although I agree it'd be nice).

I also like the idea of a University rush with the GA. Should we put Oxford in Lahore?

I don't like culture bombs for just this reason. You really have to be sure on what you're using it for, or I find you end up dissapointed by the lack of results. I think I vote for a university rush, we can use all the science we can get. Anyone know how long it is until we can research education?

 

[ChrTh]

We can research Education after Printing Press completes, or we can wait until after Nationalism, I'll let the player decide. If we're going to do a University rush, we should make sure all the cities have libraries first (I'm pretty sure they do)

 

[mjj55409]

If we're going to do a University rush, we should make sure all the cities have libraries first (I'm pretty sure they do)

The cities which can effectively build Universities all have libraries. One side-effect of this variant is that you can quickly run out of things to build.

 

[ChrTh]

The cities which can effectively build Universities all have libraries. One side-effect of this variant is that you can quickly run out of things to build.

One can NEVER run out of things to build . To that point, have we checked our current standing on military? After the GA/University rush is done, I think we should probably look to start building up our military more: Get rid of obsolete troops and build new ones. Try to mix up the types. Make sure we are under Vassalage when we do so (we're locked into Theocracy for the remainder of the game so that's not an issue).

 

[mjj55409]

Oh, of course, military is always an option. It's just been a little hard not to click on those wonders...

We were #2 in military at the end of my turnset. And #4 in GDP, which makes our research speed all the more amazing.

 

[ChrTh]

Oh, of course, military is always an option. It's just been a little hard not to click on those wonders...

We were #2 in military at the end of my turnset. And #4 in GDP, which makes our research speed all the more amazing.

Yeah, I'm curious about that. I would expect a result like that if we were playing Warlord level ... but with everything being equal, I'm surprised the other Civs haven't traded up to our level. They obviously have land/enough cities otherwise US and Spain wouldn't have such a high score, so what's keeping them? Could it be religion?

 

[mjj55409]

Or, it could have been a violent millennia on the other continent. Wars have a way of slowing research. Notice that only India, Eygpt, and England have caravels.

 

[Dreylin]

Well Montezuma is over on that continent, and I've never seen him not go to war with fair regularity!

Looking at the scores on one of my screenshots shows that each of the four has a separate Religion (which they each founded) so that's going to cause lots of tension - Isabella is particularly intollerant, I've found. We're also at -4 relation from each of them for being "heathen". Didn't think to look at their relations with each other, but that might give us an interesting guide.

Maybe if we can cosy up to one of the more reasonable ones - Mansa or Washington - we can get ourselves drawn into one of their wars and see some action....

 

[ChrTh]

Maybe if we can cosy up to one of the more reasonable ones - Mansa or Washington - we can get ourselves drawn into one of their wars and see some action....

Remember the variant rules! We can't cosy up to anyone. Plus the fact that we're forever and ever (amen) Buddhist, we're going to have negative relations with the Eastern Continent until they go to Free Religion.

As already mentioned, we may go the entire game without being drawn into a war. We'll see, though.

 

[chriseay]

1625 AD/Turn 0 - Change Lahore to Missionary for Jaipur, it'll only take one turn, and it seems like having religion in all of our cities would be the best. Nothing else, all looks good.

1630 AD/Turn 1 - Lahore Missionary -> Settler for fishing village. Workers are mostly spreading farms and a few cottages.
AM Lighthouse -> Castle. I think we need all the culture we can get in this city, plus it's front line, so the extra defense could come in handy.

1635 AD/Turn 2 - Printing Press -> Education. It seems to me that this is a higher priority for us.
Religion is in all of our cities!!

1640 AD/Turn 3 - Not much, just caravels exploring and workers farming.

1645 AD/Turn 4 - Karachi Bank -> Grocer. The city is at it's health limit.
Kolhapur Harbor -> Forge.

1650 AD/Turn 5 - Mansa comes looking for Printing Press.
I say no way. He tells me that I'm not very nice.
Find Thebes, it seems Hatty has an Artist stored up too.

AM Castle -> Caravel

1655 AD/Turn 6 - Liz looks for this, I say no.

Hatty want's OB's. Again, I have to say no. There are 5 million souls in India now!
AM Caravel -> Wealth (-10 gpt to +4 gpt!!)
Madras Bank -> Wealth
Calcutta Grocer -> Fast Worker. I think one or two more in the east are needed.
Bombay Forbidden Palace -> Grocer. Health is an issue here too.

1660 AD/Turn 7 - Send the settler towards fishing village spot, though I won't found the city, as I'm not sure we came to a consensus on the exact spot or if we are ready for more cities yet.
Bangalore Bank -> Aqueduct
Lahore Settler -> Wealth

1665 AD/Turn 8 - Education -> Nationalism. Change 8/10 cities to universities and start the golden age. The other two will either take forever, or don't have a library.

1670 AD/Turn 9 - Mansa offers Economics and 120 gold for Printing Press. I say no because I don't think it's a good deal. I'm also not quite sure if this is allowed.

1675 AD/Turn 10 - Not much, just exploring and working.

No thoughts really, except that as soon as these universities finish we definitely need to work on the military mightily and settle the eastern island...it looks to me like there are two spots.

 

[Dreylin]

More Workers!? I left a couple of spare Workers asleep somewhere in the Empire (I usually try to leave them out in the open/on hills so they're obvious). I found myself running out of useful things to do with them towards the end of my turnset as most of the cities I discovered had far more improved tiles than they were actually using and our transport network is really waiting for Railroads in 4columns time.

If we want the village to get the fish within it's radius then it has to go on the end of that promontory SW of Lahore. A bit risky due to Hatty's nearby city, but we should be able to produce enough culture to hold her off.

 

[ChrTh]

We can trade techs with the AI ... but we probably shouldn't. We can research techs faster than they can apparently, why help them out?

That being said, I really want to grab that island before the AI does. We're a way aways from Astronomy (I believe that's the tech that gives us Galleons), but if we can trade to get closer (or get it), we probably should. We should also have a couple galleys sitting ready to head over there (after upgrading, of course) with settlers, guards, and workers.

ROSTER:
ChrTh -- On Deck
mjj55409
Dreylin
Ucel -- I think he's out until 1/9
chriseay -- Just Finished
scowler -- UP


Love the University push in the GA

 

[Dreylin]

Were there any seafood resources around that island? I couldn't see any on the screenie, but if there are that would influence settlement location. Otherwise Probably 1tile East of the Iron, and then on the far Eastern tip?

I would probably have take Mansa's trades - possibly even given him PP as long as it was "for a friend" and not "tribute" - as he's one of the friendlier leaders on the other continent. Besides, it gets us an "illegal" tech, and speeds us towards Astronomy.

 

[ChrTh]

Again, we're benefitting the AI, especially if we have a monopoly (because we're not allowed to dial up leaders, we can't then trade it to everybody--but Mansa can).

A couple thoughts:

Let's drop science to 80% ... why lose 17 a turn when you can gain 38? I don't think it's worth it just to shave a turn off of Nationalism. EDIT: Scratch that. We can get it and most of Liberalism done during the GA if we stay at 90%.

Hastings flipped to Egypt. Not a big surprise.

Hrm, Washington has Gunpowder.

When we hit the next rank, I would say go with Liberalism first. If we can research it first, we can get a free tech. Even if we miss out on that, Free Speech is a must in our ongoing cultural war with Hattie (Free Religion is useless). Just a reminder we can't leave Mercantilism or Theocracy.

 

[Dreylin]

Good point. I was looking from the point of view that the most of the AI Civs can almost certainly research Astronomy now (since it only requires Optics&Calendar) if they wanted to, while we have to go through 6techs before we can get there - so we need all the help we can get if we're going to settle that island first.

 

[chriseay]

I don't remember seeing any seafood around the island, so I think your settlement pattern is perfect Dreylin. On the workers, I found one sleeping on a hill, but I still felt like I needed a coupla more. We have a lot of land to irrigate out east, and it's gonna take quite a bit of chaining to get to some of it. Plus, there are quite a few grasslands empty...cottages on them would be good I think.

 

[Scowler]

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

 

[Dreylin]

Right, I'm away for a week now and won't be able to play until maybe the 15th. I may get enough contact to read and comment, but I'll have nothing with me remotely capable of playing the game.

 

[Scowler]

(0) 1675AD
- Delhi is now at +3 unhealthiness and is about to grow again so I halt growth and make citizen into a merchant: deficit drops (-17 to -11gpt).
- Adjust Lahore to give us an extra 2 commerce points: deficit drops to -9gpt.
- At Kolhapur a citizen is moved from a water to a cottage tile: forge drops from 6-5 turns.

(1) 1680AD
Jaipur: courthouse -> forge

(2) 1685AD

No chance: he can bully all he wants, but until he gets Astronomy he has no way of conducting anything but the phoniest of wars.
- Nationalism -> Liberalism

(3) 1690AD
- Mansa Musa offers sugar in exchange for our silver. Unfortunately, that deal’s not sweet enough for me.
- However, MM has the last laugh as he is the first to research Liberalism – and he chooses Astronomy as his free tech. Bugger!
- Delhi: university -> knight

(4) 1695AD
- Lahore: university -> knight
- Monty adopts Bureaucracy – the world is a safer place tonight.

(5) 1700AD
- Kolhapur: forge -> courthouse

(6) 1705AD

- Liz wants Open Borders yet again.
- Liberalism -> Constitution. The Representation civic is probably of most use to us at the moment. We don’t have an urgent need for Economy because we are not allowed to switch to Free Market; Gunpowder/Military Tradition are similarly non-critical while our rivals on the other continent lack the means to reach us in force (and at the risk of hubris, a war with either Hatty or Liz is unlikely at present).
- Civic change: Bureaucracy -> Free Speech
- Golden Age has now ended, but I am going to leave us running deficit research at 90% for a while.
- Jaipur: forge -> library
- Karachi: university -> grocer
- Wang Anshi (Great Merchant) is born in Madras. A trade mission is obviously out of the question, so the choice is between providing +1184 towards Economics, creating a super-specialist, or saving him for another Golden Age.

(7) 1710AD
Delhi: knight -> wealth (deficit drops to -2gpt)
AM: crossbow -> knight
Calcutta: university -> Buddhist monastery
Lahore: knight -> crossbow (not sure why, with musketmen coming up, but&#8230
(Obviously I couldn’t switch to Vassalage for these with Free Speech coming up)

(8) 1715AD
The caravels have been continuing to explore and have found a couple more potential sites:

You will note that Mansa Musa and Hatty are also checking it out.

(9) 1720AD
AM: knight -> longbow

(10) 1725AD
- Lahore: crossbow -> longbow
- Madras: university -> wealth
- We now have enough universities to build Oxford University, so I set this up at Delhi. I decide to start it here rather than Madras simply because it will be quicker: 8 vs. 17 turns. However, it can certainly be switched at the beginning of the next player’s round, if necessary.

Notes:
- In retrospect, I think it may have been a mistake to fill both the national wonder slots at AM so quickly: the Hermitage could have been very helpful there.
- It would be useful to build a Buddhist Stupa in Delhi at some point. I don’t think we have enough temples to allow it at the moment, but it is something to bear in mind for the future.
- We still have a settler and a Great Merchant outstanding. I left the settler alone as I didn’t feel another city could be justified in the current financial climate.