Cultural Victory on the Higher Levels

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Great questions and comments by Tephros in post #80. I can't wait to see jesusin's response to them.

I agree with all his points, except I don't see the Expansive trait having much value beyond cheap Granaries and when Health Resources might be in short supply.

The Industrious trait is underrated in most high difficulty Culture games. Even at Deity level, Industrious can be used to get many early World Wonders, especially with a high Commerce (Gems, Gold) start and targeted Research path that avoids Technologies that the AIs research early.

Also, there may be a way to take advantage of the AIs avoidance of Religious Technologies once one Civ has researched it. All the Technologies dependent on such a Religious Technology can be grabbed easily now that the stupid AIs are avoiding the prerequisite Technology (for example Polytheism).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

Shouldn't the Cottage Cities build libraries ASAP as well? All the gold they generate is converted into research, and a 50% bonus is nice.

Also, it wasn't too clear, but I think a monument is in order early on so that you can expand and access better resurces in your fat cross.

Every city must expand its borders, right. You can do this by:
- Religion spread if you have founded budism or hinduism.
- 3 turns of hiring an artist if you have Oracled CoL.
- A monument/obelisk.

I haven't been too detailed on the cottage cities buildings, because it is rather situational. Libraries are great (they provide +25% research on the city). But sometimes you prefer a settler or a worker instead, land might be scarce. And I generally build a monument and a granary before a library in the cottage cities.

 

[WastinTime]

Hmm. I can't recall the last time I built a monument. I'm lucky if I get one out before they're obsolete. I just rely on religion spread. CoL gives you religion in 2 cities. Other religions tend to spread easily on Deity, especially on the maps I use.

 

[jesusin]

Edit: Also it seems you really need to begin the game knowing you're going for a cultural victory. Seems to be less the case for other kinds of victories. Suppose I like to play by making everything random. How do I decide if I should go for a cultural victory versus others?

It is up to you how to play and enjoy the game.
My way: I get up early in the morning and think to myself 'what a great day for conquering the world' so I turn on my computer, select everything random, settle on the closest plains hill and start building warriors like there was no tomorrow. When I have taken one AI and crippled another, I re-evaluate the situation and plan the rest of the game.
As you see, with my way of playing I always know what victory I am in for and I always choose a very focused start towards the set goal.

I can't answer your question without more info:
- If you want to win the earliest (in game year) then always go for a military victory.
- If you want to have the most points then always go for a military victory.
- If you want to enjoy the most, then go for the victory you fancy that day.

 

[jesusin]

There wasn't much discussion about leader traits besides that financial, spiritual, and philosophical are best, and all others are bad.
...
So if I'm wrong and spiritual is much much better than creative or industrious, tell me why.
Personally I'd think the trait ranking from ideal to less ideal would be: Philosophical, financial, creative, spiritual, industrious, expansive. All others being mostly useless for a cultural victory.

I wouldn’t really want to discuss Traits. You can win a cultural victory in the higher levels with any trait. Try it, everyone!

Now, I let my preferences slip into the guide and your well thought analysis deserves an answer. So there I go:

First of all, there are no Traits that are best for everyone. Different playstiles will get more benefits from different Traits. For example, if I never used the whip and I never chopped trees, then I would overrate cultural (for the free border pops) and expansive (for the cheap granaries). When playing with Financial and Philosophical (of all traits!), I would feel horribly, because my cities would take so long to set up.

I almost agree enterely with your ranking of traits for a cultural victory. The only difference being that I consider Spiritual a superior trait, at the same level as Financial.

Spiritual has an irrelevant advantage: no anarchy when revolting. A typical Normal speed game will take 200 turns and will feature some 5 anarchy turns. Being Spiritual thus saves 2.5% of the time. As a comparison, the irrelevant fact that Creative gives 2cpt to the Legendary cities will mean that, considering 200 turns, considering 50 turns with FS and 3 cathedrals and 1 Hermitage, 150*2*(1+1+1)+50*2*(3.5+3.5+4.5)=2050c out of the 150000c needed, or 1.36% of the time.

Spiritual has a second irrelevant advantage: cheap temples. In a typical 3 religions GPFarm-goes-Legendary game you will build 6*3= 18 temples, for a total saving of 18*40=720h. If the GPFarm won’t be Legendary, then 9*3*40=1080h. As a comparison, being Creative you’ll build 3 libraries for a saving of 135h and then you’ll build 3 theatres at the very end of the game when it almost doesn’t matter for an additional saving of 3*25=75h.
Of course this calculation is tricky, not only hammers matter. Building the library in the capital a couple of turns sooner means Academy in place a couple of turns sooner which is quite important. Building the temples sooner means cathedrals sooner which is almost as important.

But the fantastic, incredible advantage of Spiritual is the freedom to revolt as much as you want. When I compare this to the huge advantage of Creative, free border pops, I would like to have both, but if I have to choose I prefer Spiritual.

- Imagine, 1000BC, you have 4 cities, one of them very young and you are producing a settler for the next one. You have just discovered CoL. You are runnning slavery to set up all those Monuments and Granaries quick. You wait till the settler is out and founds the 5th city, without whipping a Monument on the 4th one. The other cities have just whipped something. Then you revolt to CS without anarchy and hire an artist in cities 4 and 5. You get your border pop immediately. In 5 turns you revolt back to slavery and keep on whipping happily.

- Imagine, 500AD. You have just been first to Liberalism, chosen Nationalism, and just traded for Music (or maybe you are halfway through the building of your first set of cathedrals). You are running CS+Pacifism for the benefit of your GPFam. You put one round of hammers into the second set of cathedrals and revolt to Slavery+OR without anarchy. A few of your auxiliary cities whip the last temple for the 3rd set of cathedrals. Your capital and your cottage cities whip 1 cathedral (or maybe even 2). In 5-7 turns you revolt back to CS+Pacifism. Then you slowly hand build the last set of cathedrals. In 10-15 turns your pop is regrown and you have your cathedrals in place! You could never have hand-built or purchased those cathedrals in so short a time!

- Imagine, 1200AD. Your miserable single beaker from artists has given you Banking. You are able to trade for Economics. What to do, Mercantilism or Free Market? You realise that Mercantilism now is better cause you will pop one more GA that way. However, FM will net you almost 4000c too by way of increased commerce. Hey, you are Spiritual! You revolt to Merc, stay there half of the time, pop your GA, then revolt to FM, and enjoy the increased commerce the other half of the time.


Maybe with BTS Spiritual is a bit worst. Now you can do one of the example tricks by sacrificing a GreatLeader, since there’s no anarchy in GoldanAges and they last more than 5 turns.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

But you have. the 'low odds GL' that you get, when aiming for Great Artist Leaders, can be used to start a GOLDEN AGE. (2 Vanilla, 1 BTS)

This DOUBLES THE GGP's Generation, gold production etc. Won't have an effect on Culture, but can speed up GL's

Civic Switches to Pacifism, FS etc, or just raising your GDP to boost your culture rate.

I'm sure you gain the occasional, non Great artist..and tear hair out, as others do WITH the Great Artist.

Also building the Taj Mahal, from Nationalism, giving a golden age, and GA points. Don't you find this useful, or no production to benefit..

 

[jesusin]

Hi, IPEX-731BA5DD06

GA probability
INCOMPLETE

I won't be writing this chapter at the moment. Just a few words:
Keep the generation pool clean (100% artist probability). Learn how this probaility is calculated. BTS allows for a (slightly!) more relaxed management of GP probabilities.

I tried to hint at it the the quoted paragraph. In Vanilla you should be as obsessive about generation pool 100% probability as I am. And no, I hardly ever get an occasional non GA. In Vanilla, losing 8000c to win a GoldenAge that doesn't increase your GPP and doesn't allow Civic changes without Anarchy is not worth it.

In BTS GoldenAges are much better and they only cost 1 single GL, so they might be worth it if you know what you are doing (take a look at the examples one post above yours). This fact allows for less fanatical management of GL probabilities, to a certain extent.

As for Taj Mahal, it is undoubtedly worth it and should be built, if possible. It gives a lot of culture, it is GA generating, it launches a GoldenAge.

 

[Tephros]

But you have. the 'low odds GL' that you get, when aiming for Great Artist Leaders, can be used to start a GOLDEN AGE. (2 Vanilla, 1 BTS)

This DOUBLES THE GGP's Generation, gold production etc. Won't have an effect on Culture, but can speed up GL's

Civic Switches to Pacifism, FS etc, or just raising your GDP to boost your culture rate.

I'm sure you gain the occasional, non Great artist..and tear hair out, as others do WITH the Great Artist.

Also building the Taj Mahal, from Nationalism, giving a golden age, and GA points. Don't you find this useful, or no production to benefit..

Shmeh... Golden ages are good, but probably not the best use of a great artist if you're going for a cultural victory. If you get a non-artist for some reason, and you need to switch civics and you're not spiritual, then use that specialist for a golden age. Golden ages are better if your empire is larger, which it probably won't be if you're doing a cultural victory. Though I'd consider it more seriously if I had the Mausolleum.

I'd like to point out that if you have a holy city of a dominant religion, getting a great prophet can be of huge benefit, it will help in both phases. It will allow you to run research high to get to liberalism as early as possible, and it will allow you to run your culture at 100% once you're there. Not to mention the small cultural bonus from the shrine itself. Actually if you have the sistine chapel the bonus can be +9, plus other goodies if you have spiral minaret, university of sankore, and/or AP.

 

[oyzar]

So you are saying that military victory on the diety on BTS is able to be consistently done before 1000 AD?

@ Traits, problem with industrious is that you want to par them with financial and then the insane UU kinda overshadows everything else...

 

[Tephros]

So you are saying that military victory on the diety on BTS is able to be consistently done before 1000 AD?

On a small or dual pangea map, yeah probably. I play only on huge maps. On huge maps, probably not.

@ Traits, problem with industrious is that you want to par them with financial and then the insane UU kinda overshadows everything else...

UU's matter less for cultural victory I'd think. The quick land grab from an early rush might be a good idea. Though I found that the conquistador makes a great UU for cultural victory because they are effective defenders around the time when you start falling behind in technology since you're running your culture at 100%.

 

[Catus]

Thanks for this guide. Following it about as well as I could, I got my first cultural victory last night, playing at my usual level (Elizabeth, Prince, Fractal, all standard settings). The situation was rather ideal--my only neighbor was Gandhi, and the only warmonger AI was on a different continent. I know I made a few mistakes--especially in setting up the GP Farm, but won by 1906 (approximately), which is about 60 years earlier than my best finish date so far. So the guide works very well for non-elite players such as myself too.

I have to say that the Cultural victory brings out an entirely new side to Civ 4. I'm not sure I've ever raised the culture slider above 0% (other than just for the heck of it), and it was interesting and frightening to watch as the AI's moved past me in terms of technology and military might while I built culture. On the other hand, it was fun to watch my borders keep expanding until they swallowed up half of Bangalore and Madras's BFC.

Thanks again for the guide!

 

[Alexfrog]

What would be the research order for an 'ideal' cultural victory, on deity?

Specifically, how much do you research before going for Alphabet?


Here are my thoughts:
1) My chosen Civ should start with 2 techs out of: Agriculture, Wheel, Mysticism, Mining.
2) I consider a Oracle->Civil Service slingshot critical to a 'perfect' game. Yes it is really hard (mostly, its hard to get Math+Code before the AI builds oracle). How does this affect the tech order.


In my most recent try I went (with a strong start position, and stealing 1 worker):

Start: Agriculture/Mysticism (Inca).
Mining (gotta mine that Gem or Gold I start with)
Animal Husbandry (had cows. Maybe this was a mistake?)
The Wheel
Pottery
Writing
Alphabet
(trade for Masonry, Meditation, Polytheism, Bronze Working)
Priesthood
Mathematics
Code of Laws
Civil Service off Oracle (I missed this by 4 turns, and AIs were slow on Oracle too).
(Trade for Aesthetics, Literature, Music, Drama)
Paper
Education
(Trade for Philosophy)
Liberalism
Take Printing Press for free, trade for Nationalism, or vice versa.
Stop research.


What modifications should I make to this? I am thinking Animal Husbandry should be traded for.
I dont have Bronze working until like 2000 BC when I hit alphabet. How bad is that? Is it worth trying to research before Alphabet? Its expensive early on!

I am trying for the following Wonders:
Oracle (non GP farm City) - I use this city to generate ~2 early scientists for Academy in Capitol and Education bulb. I'm going to trust the random # geneartor in my perfect game to give scientists instead of priests, with relatively high probability.
Parthenon
Sistene Chapel
Taj Mahal

Is this even a rational plan, given that I am trying to trade for Aesthetics and Music?

With my plan I only Generate Taoism and hope for a couple early religions to spread to me. I think this is reasonable, its better than researching Philosophy and delaying the time to turn on culture.


Early growth plan:
I steal a worker from a Civ while my capitol grows to size 3 by working 3 food tiles. Worker gets back and farms the Corn and Mines the gem/gold, then cottages. I am trying to avoid Quecha rushing because I think its the biggest exploit. I only want to use littler exploits like worker stealing and map regenerating. If a different Civ was Industrious/Financial I would play them, I am trying to be Inca for the traits not the UU.


City plan:
Capitol has 2 food resources + Gems/Gold + River + a couple flood plains. It is a cottage city and will become legendary.

2nd City is cottage city. It is founded ASAP. It has marble, a food resource, and some grasslands. River and Floodplains is a big bonus.

3rd City is GP farm it doesnt have to be founded ASAP. It has food and hammer resources.

Other cities can be on crappy land and come later. They are for temples. And whipping out units to keep people from killign me. And maybe making a great artist.

Thoughts?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

1) My chosen Civ should start with 2 techs out of: Agriculture, Wheel, Mysticism, Mining.

Leader traits are more important for a Cultural game than the starting Techs.

I would consider Mining important to either start with or research first, since working a Gems or Gold Mine early is usually a critical part of getting one's research within trading range of the AI's research rate.

2) I consider a Oracle->Civil Service slingshot critical to a 'perfect' game. Yes it is really hard (mostly, its hard to get Math+Code before the AI builds oracle). How does this affect the tech order.

Yes, a Civil Service slingshot may be required to get the best possible date. It is possible to do, but it usually requires sacrificing many other things at the critical early development stage.

In my most recent try I went (with a strong start position, and stealing 1 worker):

Start: Agriculture/Mysticism (Inca).

If you are using Inca, I wouldn't just steal a Worker. I'd capture 1 or 2 Civs. Build a stack of six Quechuas and conquer each Civ one at a time. Build new Quechuas to replace those lost.

Mining (gotta mine that Gem or Gold I start with)

Absolutely!

Animal Husbandry (had cows. Maybe this was a mistake?)

In my opinion, Animal Husbandry should wait until it could be traded for.

The Wheel
Pottery
Writing
Alphabet
(trade for Masonry, Meditation, Polytheism, Bronze Working)
Priesthood
Mathematics
Code of Laws
Civil Service off Oracle (I missed this by 4 turns, and AIs were slow on Oracle too).
(Trade for Aesthetics, Literature, Music, Drama)

The above is an excellent plan. There may be equally good and perhaps better plans.

OK, you plan on building an early Library and work two Scientists to generate a Great Scientist who builds an Academy in the Capital very early on.

Paper
Education
(Trade for Philosophy)

Your second Great Scientist should bulb Philosophy for Taoism. Don't waste him on bulbing just over half of Education.

Liberalism
Take Printing Press for free, trade for Nationalism, or vice versa.
Stop research.

...

I dont have Bronze working until like 2000 BC when I hit alphabet. How bad is that? Is it worth trying to research before Alphabet? Its expensive early on!

Trading for Bronze Working is fine, if you don't need it earlier for Forest Chopping or Slavery.

I am trying for the following Wonders:
Oracle (non GP farm City) - I use this city to generate ~2 early scientists for Academy in Capitol and Education bulb. I'm going to trust the random # generator in my perfect game to give scientists instead of priests, with relatively high probability.
Parthenon
Sistene Chapel
Taj Mahal

This is an excellent group of World Wonders to shoot for.

If you plan to mess with the gene pool, play BtS and use any accidental Great Prophet for a Golden Age and don't forget to change your Civics for free during the Golden Age.

Is this even a rational plan, given that I am trying to trade for Aesthetics and Music?

By trading for Music you forfeit any chance of getting the free Great Artist. If you can trade for Music early enough to start Cathedrals, losing the Great Artist is more than made up for by earlier Liberalism and switch to Free Speech and the highest Culture bar rate possible.

With my plan I only Generate Taoism and hope for a couple early religions to spread to me. I think this is reasonable, its better than researching Philosophy and delaying the time to turn on culture.

How do you found Taoism when you plan to trade for Philosophy? Bulb Philosophy (instead of Education) before the AI gets it so you so found Taoism.

Get Open Borders to all Civs with Religions ASAP and you should get early Religions, but it's not a sure thing.

Early growth plan:
I steal a worker from a Civ while my capitol grows to size 3 by working 3 food tiles. Worker gets back and farms the Corn and Mines the gem/gold, then cottages. I am trying to avoid Quecha rushing because I think its the biggest exploit. I only want to use littler exploits like worker stealing and map regenerating. If a different Civ was Industrious/Financial I would play them, I am trying to be Inca for the traits not the UU.

I admire your avoidance of Quechua rushing, because you believe it is an exploit to use it. However, until the rules forbid the use of the Incan Empire, I'd say you are a fool not to use it!

If you don't want to use the Inca's Quechua to its fullest extent, I'd recommend playing as a non-Incan Civ.

City plan:
Capitol has 2 food resources + Gems/Gold + River + a couple flood plains. It is a cottage city and will become legendary.

2nd City is cottage city. It is founded ASAP. It has marble, a food resource, and some grasslands. River and Floodplains is a big bonus.

3rd City is GP farm it doesnt have to be founded ASAP. It has food and hammer resources.

Other cities can be on crappy land and come later. They are for temples. And whipping out units to keep people from killing me. And maybe making a great artist.

Excellent City plan.

Add a bunch of Forests for chopping, especially after Civil Service for the +50% Hammer bonus.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Alexfrog]

I would consider Mining important to either start with or research first, since working a Gems or Gold Mine early is usually a critical part of getting one's research within trading range of the AI's research rate.

Yes, I will either start with mining and research Agriculture, or start with Agri and get Mining.

If you are using Inca, I wouldn't just steal a Worker. I'd capture 1 or 2 Civs. Build a stack of six Quechuas and conquer each Civ one at a time. Build new Quechuas to replace those lost.

I guess. It just feels so broken. Like its not really deity if I quecha rush people.

Does stealing a worker with a different civ work well at all? Or just Inca?
Mansa Musa might be another good civ to try for this, good traits and starting techs, and skimrisher for good defense. But it so good to have him as a trading partner.

In my opinion, Animal Husbandry should wait until it could be traded for.

Yeah, I dont think delaying cottages and library was worth it.

How do you found Taoism when you plan to trade for Philosophy? Bulb Philosophy (instead of Education) before the AI gets it so you so found Taoism.

Opps I meant Confusianism from CoL.

Get Open Borders to all Civs with Religions ASAP and you should get early Religions, but it's not a sure thing.

Yes, and early writing helps this. Is it a good plan to not get open borders with non religion civs?

 

[jesusin]

What would be the research order for an 'ideal' cultural victory, on deity?

Are you looking for the ideal game in the ideal map in ideal conditions? There's an ideal thread for that.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7538868&postcount=294

What modifications should I make to this? I am thinking Animal Husbandry should be traded for.

Your description of the perfect game is very similar to what I've been trying in the thread above. Yes, I'd suggest to leave out AH or Pott for a really quick Alpha. In BTS AIs go faster for Alpha, so an option is to concentrate on
CS sling and trade CoL for Alpha.

I dont have Bronze working until like 2000 BC when I hit alphabet. How bad is that?

It is not bad as long as it comes for free (traded for).

... I think this is reasonable, its better than researching Philosophy and delaying the time to turn on culture.

I've found out that the date you go 100% culture is not so important. If your cathedrals are not up and running, it is useless. So I find that bulbing Philo immediately after the CS sling for additional early temples is a good idea, even if it costs a few turns.

Music immediately after CS is an option too, you delay the date of 100% culture but you can start buidling cathedrals and Sistine's sooner and you get a free GA.

2nd City is cottage city. It is founded ASAP. It has marble, a food resource, and some grasslands. River and Floodplains is a big bonus.

3rd City is GP farm it doesnt have to be founded ASAP. It has food and hammer resources.

I am much more (maybe too much) focused on GA than on cottages/cathedrals or than on buildings. So I try to make the GPFarm my 2nd city. With so much food around it helps me expand by building a quick settler.
As for auxiliary cities, every city with a 6 food tile should pop 1 GA.

As I said, other people prefer to focus more on hammers.







You might want to participate in this competition:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=307924

I'm sure there will be much to learn there.

 

[oyzar]

Personally i like to tech aestics -> lit/drama -> music and use those to trade for alpha / math / col... Then tech CS / philo and onwards toward lib...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Does stealing a worker with a different civ work well at all? Or just Inca?
Mansa Musa might be another good civ to try for this, good traits and starting techs, and skirmisher for good defense. But it so good to have him as a trading partner.

Any Civ can steal Workers on Deity with Warriors. Using a single Warrior often works, but it works best on a tile with a Forest or Hill and Forest for extra defense against the AI counter-attack. Using two Warriors (original Warrior plus one you build right off) is almost certain to work assuming the AI has only Archers (or Warriors) to counter-attack with. Furthermore, the AI's counter-attack must kill both your Warriors to deny you your Worker prize.

Yes, and early writing helps this. Is it a good plan to not get open borders with non religion civs?

Open Borders with a Civ that has the Holy City for a Religion is the best way to get that Religion early. If the Civ is nearby, you may even build a Road there to increase the chance of getting their Religion naturally.

Open Borders with a Civ that has no Religion at All and has no Trade Routes available has no Net benefit. You will reveal how rich your land is and how poorly defended your Cities are with Open Borders. So generally you want Open Borders with a Civ only when the Net benefit is in your favor. Either you must have a chance to get their Religion, explore their lands, gain the Open Borders Diplomacy bonus or foreign trade routes. For various reasons, the latter three are not that important for Cultural games; For example, you need Open Borders with only a few Civs to get enough foreign trade routes.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[budweiser]

I just have to add a funny story about a cultural victory I had the other day. I was Brennus on a standard monarch pangea map. I was lucky enough to get some stone close by so I built some wonders which set me up nicely for a cultrual victory.

I had a small 6-7 city empire and I ended up having to defend myself in 2 different wars. First was Kublai Khan and Freddie his vassal. Then later was a SOD from Wang Kon. I had to use Grens and cannons vs cav and arty. I actually ended up losing my 3rd culture city at one point and just barely retook it. This wiped out all culture buiuldings and pushed back the win date to 1933. But it was a gratifiying win.

So, just becareful which cities you choose to make legends and avoid exposure to the enemy if possible.

Also, I always end up reaching legendary with my capitol first and a while later city 2 and 3 reach the limit at about the same time.

 

[budweiser]

I won another cultural victory last night with Sal, but it was painful. Standard, monarch continents. I had 7 cities, then built 2 small filler cities very late.

I had a green sub continent to myself so I went with a cottage economy and did a good job getting to Lib and then democracy fairly quick. The problem is, i only had 1 religion and when I stopped researching right around replaceable parts, I had over 100 turns to go before my cities would go legendary. They just weren't make that much Culture per Turn. I would say your legendaries need to be making at least 500 CPT when you make the conversion. 700 to 1000 would be better. You just cant sit there for 100 turns pressing enter. That is too much time for something to go wrong.

This game didn't end until 1964.

 

[mystyfly]

1) Why did you only have 1 religion? There was surely more than 1 religion present on your continent..?

2) Why did you stop teching "around RP"? I understand stopping after PP but what is RP for?