Culture Flipping and Pointy Stick Research

[braclayrab]

I'm currently playing a game under Monarch. I'm warring with Babylon and due to the fact that I've been building knights and swordsman, my culture is very lacking, especially in face of the culture of the babylonians... I knew this was going to be a problem, which is why I was planning on trading the cities back for technology, but I could only get Invention, and not Invention and Gunpowder, which I think is dumb, you should be able to get both...

So, I was just wondering how I can better prevent culture flipping in the future besides fortifying more units.

I was also wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the fact that all units in a flipped city are lost! I always though maybe that they should be returned to your capital, or to the border in a damaged state. It's just very frustrating to be garrisonning as many units in a city in order to prevent culture flipping but at the same time taking a much larger risk of unit loss by doing so.

I could also use some tips on 'pointy stick research', like I said, babylon was supposed to get it's cities back during peace negotiations, but was willing to give me the only tech available just for peace, so I kept the cities (one of which just culture flipped on me)...

PS: I just saw a Volcano in another thread. What expansion does that come with and what does it do?

 

[thetrooper]

I just saw a Volcano in another thread. What expansion does that come with and what does it do?

The volcano is a "new" feature in the conquest expansion. It is a nasty thing! You can not build a road or mine the volcano. The volcano can erupt an pollute your tiles.

 

[IbnSina]

When I take major cities from civs that are culturally far ahead of mine, I raze them. The only time I don't do that is when they contain a major wonder that I feel I need. In that case, I take the cities, starve them for a turn or two while my troops recover, then remove my troops. The enemy reoccupies the town and I then attack it anew. This means my troops don't have to risk too much time in the city, and reduces the population of the city rapidly. By the time its population goes under 6, then the probability of a flip is fairly low.

That said, it makes me crazy on those rare occasions when a size-four city flips and takes my 19-unit cavalry stack with it. It seems reasonable to think of a city flipping and taking one unit, or kicking the troops to its border, but when one little town flips and destroys my entire army, it's too much. I keep thinking I should just turn cultural conversion off, but it adds an interesting angle to the game, and I can deal with it when it means loss of a city and a couple of units. Turning it off would mean that I would not have to garrison recently captured cities, would not have to starve them down or raze them. The game would be much easier. Since I play a mod anyway, I just mod the rules for myself here as well: a city can destroy at most two of my units through a culture flip. Otherwise I restart, remove all but two units, and let it flip again. I apologize to the purists...

As for pointy-stick research, I find that civs are never very forthcoming with reparations until they are almost finished. It seems necessary to take all but one or two towns before they'll give very much. I never return towns to their original owners...

 

[braclayrab]

Ah, okay. I'm unexperienced with Pointy Stick Research.

I've taken many cities now and had to give up the war because of lack of healthy units and weariness, but managed to get some good techs. I'm doing well now in my game.

The problem with Culture flipping of newly captured cities for me is that I can't resist the desire to reload, even though I hate to...

Also, if you sue for peace and leave a handful of cities left, do you then reinstate war soon after in order to ensure no culture flips, or do you try to leave a buffer zone, either of water or razed cities, between the remaining cities and your captured ones? Also, if you make peace and then declare war soon after, does this affect your standing with other civs?

 

[sealman]

If you break the peace treaty before the 20 turn limit your reputation is tarnished with all the other civs.

 

[alamo]

Culture flips need some modification, as 4 angry farmers can't realistically destroy a stack of MA. The units can be damaged, reduced in rank, or even regress in tech, but they should not simply disappear!

I once found a case where removing the troops from the city eliminated the flip - explain that one!

You don't have to allow recapture to reduce pop - you can hurry workers or settlers, in addition to starving and recruiting.

My pointy-stick research usually means kicking their buns until they agree to tech for peace.

 

[IbnSina]

If I make peace, I always keep it for the full 20-turn interval (unless it's an archipelago map and I think I can destroy my opponent without anyone else ever knowing). Doing otherwise ruins the AI attitude toward me, and much of my strategy requires not being at war with the whole world simultaneously.

The thing about flips is that if you're careful, they don't happen very often, and when they do, they don't hurt too much. In my last game I kept a Celtic city because it had Leonardo's in it. I starved it down to pop 2, and then thought I was safe. It grew back to size four, and -then- flipped. I lost Leo's and most of a library, as well as two units. That's oooh-kay (deep sigh) ... I finished my war with the Moors, and then turned back and finished overrunning the Celts. I only lost use of Leo's for ten or fifteen turns - no big deal, in the grand scheme of things... The point is that when you're done with that formerly culturally superior civ, they are small and weak, and you can finish them any time. They are not accumulating culture quickly any more. Wait for the 20 turns and avoid the attitude hit.

 

[Nate1976]

One, I was at war with the Indians, had just gotten my first army, fortified it in one of it's outer cities to heal- I had rushed a barracks- and It flipped! I Looked for like 5 minutes trying to find the freakin Army. It sucks.

_-Nate-_

 

[microbe]

If you break the peace treaty before the 20 turn limit your reputation is tarnished with all the other civs.

Untrue .

 

[alamo]

I usually hurry a culture building to counteract flips, too. It gets expensive, but the expanding borders are also helpful.

 

[braclayrab]

Thanks Everyone.

 

[tR1cKy]

I agree with IbnSina and alamo. The culture flip thing is quite messed up. It' not realistic that a 3 or 4 pop city can overrun a dozen military unit and simply destroy them all. When i see such oddities, i reload. Ok, purists are likely to disagree, but hey, such nonsense actually spoils the game, so in cases like this reloading should be ok...

In my last emperor game, a few days ago, i invaded Babilonia. They were far superior on culture, so a flip was likely to happen. The first conquered city (size 9) went to civil disorder, then, certain of a flip, i moved all my stack, except for one unit, in a hill nearby. The city didn't flip. I decided to investigate a little: i saved, then reloaded the previous turn. This time i left 5 units in the city. Hit <enter> then... culture flip!
A strange thing indeed, more units actually caused the flip. hmmm... this means that the culture flip thing is REALLY messed up...

 

[Charles 22]

I agree with IbnSina and alamo. The culture flip thing is quite messed up. It' not realistic that a 3 or 4 pop city can overrun a dozen military unit and simply destroy them all. When i see such oddities, i reload. Ok, purists are likely to disagree, but hey, such nonsense actually spoils the game, so in cases like this reloading should be ok...

In my last emperor game, a few days ago, i invaded Babilonia. They were far superior on culture, so a flip was likely to happen. The first conquered city (size 9) went to civil disorder, then, certain of a flip, i moved all my stack, except for one unit, in a hill nearby. The city didn't flip. I decided to investigate a little: i saved, then reloaded the previous turn. This time i left 5 units in the city. Hit <enter> then... culture flip!
A strange thing indeed, more units actually caused the flip. hmmm... this means that the culture flip thing is REALLY messed up...

There is some program called CRPmapstat or some such, that will monitor filp chances. What likely happened there is that though the flip chance should be less with the occupying units in there, it still has some chance to flip early on. For example if the chance were 80% without the units and 40% with them, it would appear to be cause-effect if the thing flips with the units adn doesn't without them, but there was always a 'chance' it would flip in either case. Sure there are some cases where you can put enough units in there or have enough culture where there is no chance it flips, but all the units do is decrease that chance, of course sometimes decreasing that chance down to zero.