Culture to build wonders

[ezzlar]

Many wonders like Sistine Chapel requires a lot of stones and bricks. But it also requires that little special guy painting the place. And that cant be any geek of the street..

What if wonders required any of the following examples:

- At least 4000 culture
- At least +25 culture / turn
- One artist/scholar (great person)

One could also have (for scientific wonders):

- At least +40 science beakers / turn

Or (for production wonders):

- Production of at least 50 hammers / turn

I think this would be more realistic. It´s no coincidence that wonders happen in great cultures! Or would it just make the game more micro manage?

 

[Alki]

Surely the Sistine Chapel was 'built' by burning a great artist?

 

[V. Soma]

not a bad idea, but it would bring up a lot of game mechanic questions, balance, etc...
so it is hard to imply...

 

[ezzlar]

#Alki

I think so yes!

#V.Soma

Would it really be so hard? Setting different limits requires testing for balance, but more than that?

 

[Schuesseled]

the biggest problem with that is letting you know its been unlocked, like with oxford uni and wall street

 

[need my speed]

Well, you could also have it that Great Artists can create wonders like Great Prophets create shrines. These wonders would be dependent on the age (like, when in the Middle Ages, they can build the Sistine Chapel). Some wonders possibly require 2 Great Artists combined, or other Great People, or some culture to spend (instead of spending it on things like Aristocracy).

 

[Babri]

Surely the Sistine Chapel was 'built' by burning a great artist?

Maybe Great Artist will not die but instead you'll need a Great Artist of that age like medieval age Great Artist for Sistine Chapel. An ancient age one won't work in this case.

 

[SalmonSoil]

It would be nice if they did make it easier for cultural civs to do cultural things.
The question is, should culture cause wonders or wonders cause culture?

 

[Kramer3980]

I don't like needing great people for wonders. I think creating wonders and the like was one of the things that helped make the people great, not the other way around. They become so renowned after they created their great whatever. Just like in cIV, creating certain wonders added to your great people progress.

Same with culture, people don't decide to build great things because their culture is high. They build things first, and people all over the world are like "wow, look at their great culture"

 

[Babri]

I don't like needing great people for wonders. I think creating wonders and the like was one of the things that helped make the people great, not the other way around. They become so renowned after they created their great whatever. Just like in cIV, creating certain wonders added to your great people progress.

Same with culture, people don't decide to build great things because their culture is high. They build things first, and people all over the world are like "wow, look at their great culture"

That is not very logical. People had great skills & imagination thats they're able to build Great Wonders. In turn the Wonders flourished their culture even further. Without that skill you won't be able to do that thing. For example Shakespeare was the author of many famous plays. Ok that made him great but he was talented thats why he was able to do so. Now can you or me will be able to write better than him ? Similarly even today it is almost impossible to make a seamless globe however some skilled craftsmen did it in India during the Mughal era.

 

[Churchdown Yank]

Maybe Great Artist will not die but instead you'll need a Great Artist of that age like medieval age Great Artist for Sistine Chapel. An ancient age one won't work in this case.

I think it's an interesting idea. I think a Great General can build a fort now and he offers a bonus to surrounding units, which are benefits he gives without being consumed. You could do the same with Great Artists, Engineers, etc.

There could be an option to use them on something which provides an immediate boost and they die/are consumed as a result - or there could be other things they would do to (speed up or allow construction of certain wonders or other buildings) that would provide a lesser benefit but not consume them. Hmmmm...

 

[ddd123]

Surely the Sistine Chapel was 'built' by burning a great artist?

well stay for 10 years with your head watching the ceiling and the answer your question

 

[Mercade]

That is not very logical. People had great skills & imagination thats they're able to build Great Wonders. In turn the Wonders flourished their culture even further. Without that skill you won't be able to do that thing. For example Shakespeare was the author of many famous plays. Ok that made him great but he was talented thats why he was able to do so. Now can you or me will be able to write better than him ? Similarly even today it is almost impossible to make a seamless globe however some skilled craftsmen did it in India during the Mughal era.

It's a classic chicken-egg situation. In most Civ games, the mechanism is that when you have the wonder (Sistine Chapel), you generate more points towards a Great Artist. If you now also need a Great Artist to build the Wonder, where does the Great Artist come from in the first place.

I wouldn't mind a Great Artist/Scientist being able to speed up the construction of a Cultural/Scientific Wonder, similarly to the way a Great Engineer can now be used to speed up any building, but requiring one to build a wonder makes no sense to me in terms of current game mechanics. Of maybe that logic is too Civ4-ish.

 

[Wolfwood]

Putting aside the Great Artist debate, I still like the original idea of having your cultural investment somehow support the creation of cultural wonders. This might also translate to having your scientific investment support the creation of scientific wonders.

An interesting concept that would need lots of play testing to balance it well.

 

[Olleus]

It would be nice if they did make it easier for cultural civs to do cultural things.
The question is, should culture cause wonders or wonders cause culture?

Hit the nail on the head there.


If you then have a positive feedback system where having culture gives you more wonders and even more culture and then even more wonders, the game breaks down. It becomes a race to who can get the first cultural wonder then has a massive advantage in getting the rest.

Positive feedback systems are terrible in games, they make the first few decisions you take have an overwhelming influence on the rest of the game.

 

[Wolfwood]

But if cultural wonders did not give a further boost to culture (but to other things), the positive feedback problem could be evaded.

Mind you, this might work logically only for some of the cultural wonders - but all else failing, you could always have them provide an economic boost (since people would travel to the city to see it or some such).

 

[Babri]

It's a classic chicken-egg situation. In most Civ games, the mechanism is that when you have the wonder (Sistine Chapel), you generate more points towards a Great Artist. If you now also need a Great Artist to build the Wonder, where does the Great Artist come from in the first place.

I wouldn't mind a Great Artist/Scientist being able to speed up the construction of a Cultural/Scientific Wonder, similarly to the way a Great Engineer can now be used to speed up any building, but requiring one to build a wonder makes no sense to me in terms of current game mechanics. Of maybe that logic is too Civ4-ish.

Artist specialists also generate Great Artist points.
And the good & more profitable wonders would require great people of that era. They'll not consume them while constructing. This would make it difficult for one civilization to grab all the good wonders as it happens sometimes in Civ.

There could be an option to use them on something which provides an immediate boost and they die/are consumed as a result - or there could be other things they would do to (speed up or allow construction of certain wonders or other buildings) that would provide a lesser benefit but not consume them. Hmmmm...

Nice idea. But I think resource bonus for wonders is enough. More bonuses might make it unbalanced

 

[oopsy poopsy]

If I were to try something like this, I'd be more inclined have a slider for city culture, so that it goes to borders or to create wonders when necessary. If a wonder needed x hammers and y culture you'd have to plan even more and I think it's a fair point that wonder creation involves culture as far as actual history goes. Ideally, the list of wonders wouldn't be available at all to select, you'd have to pump culture into a granary or a lighthouse to create the lighthouse or the pyramids etc...

That's a little more complicated and in the long run would probably just turn into a hassle, but it'd be cool to have that part work as a surprise, at least for the first couple times.

The part about great people I'm not so sure about. I'm really not that big a fan of the mechancis of them anyway and if you needed them for this, you'd probably need more of them in the game, which I'm not really in favour of. Now, if the creation of great people could be controlled by putting culture into unit building as well (maybe units from other buildings like libraries for GS, theatres for GA, etc...) that'd be interesting too.