Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

Krajzen · Apr 25, 2020

Okay, so here is my ultimate list of expected civs and their focuses. I won't change it anymore, unless something is denied. Let's see how correctly could I predict.

Medieval

Spoiler :

Early modern

Spoiler :

Industrial

Spoiler :

Modern

Spoiler :

Uberfrog · Apr 25, 2020

mitsho said:
Eh, these confirmed lists make too many assumptions for my taste. Wonders, Units and Descriptions don‘t have to mean anything really.

They certainly play fast and loose with the definition of “confirmed”. :lol:

FinalDoomsday · Apr 25, 2020

Civ has conditioned me to the point I find any European culture classed as 'Scientist' slightly strange despite making sense! Having a science focused British culture would be a very nice change of pace.

ehecatzin · Apr 25, 2020

mitsho said:
Eh, these confirmed lists make too many assumptions for my taste. Wonders, Units and Descriptions don‘t have to mean anything really.

So on Tuesday we will get the Arabs or Abbasids or in the case of Ummayads/Fatimids the Aztecs. Arabia is interesting since they can give them practically every trait. expansionist - just look at a history map; scientist - algebra is literally a arabic term; Militarist - It‘s new tactics that allowed them to expand so fast; Merchant - being the bridge between India and Europe; aesthete - a distinct architectural style was started here, there‘s lots of poetry and so on.

I struggle a bit for agrarian or builder, but there‘s the Dams or Marib or in modern times the whole of Dubai. The traits just don‘t fit to the medieval era or might work better for a sub-culture, i.e. I can see the Moors in the Maghreb/Spain as builders. Some might fit also better with other cultures, i.e. merchants, but they are certainly defendable for Arabia.

In short, I am curious on the direction they will take them on. I expect a boring Expansionist + Madrasse + Camel Archer though.

I expect them to be a very well rounded scientist culture that can also go conquer It's neighboors, like the Greeks on classical.

Krajzen said:
Okay, so here is my ultimate list of expected civs and their focuses. I won't change it anymore, unless something is denied. Let's see how correctly could I predict.

I'm afraid I'll be stealing most of your format because we agree on many cultures (hope you don't mind), for me it seems Japan and Korea in modern would take similar niches, I have this hunch that "Japan" will be modeled after Meiji Japan on industrial, same treatment Germany, and France are getting.

I'm really having a hard time not adding the Incas, even if there's not a full andean tree, they should be in vanilla. If they are on medieval with the Aztecs, Mali could be switched to Songhai on early m. I would love to see any latin american that isn't Brazil but I guess that's expansion material. Finally I think Turkey should be in on modern.

So yeah, almost the same but not quite, I'm setting on this order as well...I better save the bookmark to compare

Medieval

Spoiler :

Early modern

Spoiler :

Industrial

Spoiler :

Modern

Spoiler :

edit:
forgot to move Germany to industrial (sorry Austria), I'll add a second anglo, because I think It's more likely to get that rather than another latin american. (even tho I'd love to see Mexico in)

Xandinho · Apr 25, 2020

Okay, I will exercise my mind as I try to predict which cultures will be in the game. And since I'm a little bored of not having information about new content in civilization, I will keep my eyes here. I made this list in a hurry, so I may have forgotten a strong name.

Medieval:

Spoiler :

Early modern:

Spoiler :

Industrial:

Spoiler :

Modern:

Spoiler :

conorbebe · Apr 26, 2020

If they end up giving camel cavalry to Mali, I’m not going to be happy. Camel cavalry was utilised mainly in the Middle East, not Africa. The Mali did not use camels in their military forces; they used horses. There’s an entire Wikipedia article on the military history of the Mali Empire, with no mention of camel cavalry.

If there is a need to include camels as a military unit in the game, give it to Arabia, who actually used them in their conquests.

The Mali Empire used camels to transport people and goods, not in warfare. They should have the Mandekalu horsemen or Sofa as their EU.

BuchiTaton · Apr 26, 2020

ehecatzin said:
Industrial

Spoiler :

British
French
Germany
Haudenosaunee
Iran
Japan
Russians
Siam
Swedish
Zulu

I doubt Iroquois would be Industrial, we dont know yet how much cover Early Modern, Industrial and Contemporary, but I feel Industrial would start at some point of 19th century. Put Incas or especially Aztecs feel forced on Early Modern, but they at least manage to scratch Early Modern.

Sioux and Apaches are a better NA native option for Industrial Era.

conorbebe said:
If they end up giving camel cavalry to Mali, I’m not going to be happy. Camel cavalry was utilised mainly in the Middle East, not Africa. The Mali did not use camels in their military forces; they used horses. There’s an entire Wikipedia article on the military history of the Mali Empire, with no mention of camel cavalry.

If there is a need to include camels as a military unit in the game, give it to Arabia, who actually used them in their conquests.

The Mali Empire used camels to transport people and goods, not in warfare. They should have the Mandekalu horsemen or Sofa as their EU.

Agree. One unit I would like to see are is an Early Modern or Industrial Tuareg camel cavalry.

And who do you think would get the Zamburak?
- Early Modern Iran
- Industrial Afghanistan

Personally I want it for Industrial Afghanistan.

Krajzen · Apr 26, 2020

I think industrial era islamic representation is either Iran or Afghans. Both of them would be unorthodox for such game so it's basically about trusting devs to not make more than half civs in this era culturally European, and rest is focus. Late Iran would be most probably aestethe, while Afghans militarist. I'd just bet on Iran more because of hope Persian civ is getting some successor, as Humankind seemingly likes to add civs that way.

As for Iroquis, I just vaguely recall somebody pointing at "Iroquis musketman" combat unit somewhere. They are among few best known and most iconic native American cultures, one of more accomplished, and have more gameplay niches than "militarist because of resistance", such as for example merchant focus, or their unique government, or diplomatic achievements etc. They were also agricultural and have more ideas for quarters than "tent".

Even without that spotted unit I'd point at Iroquis as the most probable NatAm civ. Other tribal groups are either less known, less succesfull, or would force more restricting design (for example being nomadic militarists).

Regarding modern era, I think both Korea and Turkey have very big chances here. I have chosen Korea because it's probable Joseon is getting a successor civ, and South Korea is incredibly succesfull civilization over last 50-60 years (and in the period 1900 - 1960 a ton of other major things happened around Korea

)
Turkey would be major Islamic successor, but I just couldn't fit it in modern era with my setup, unless I have ejected Iran. Having to choose between successor to classical Persia and early modern Ottomans I chose much older civ. Turkish people would be perfectly fine with playing Ottoman Empire glorious - and - never - collapsing - until - 2020 anyway

Besides, the only "obvious" focus for Turkish Republic I can think of is militarist, and that carries a ton of uncomfortable political issues
Though adding 20th century Iran would be even worse. No matter if it were inspired by monarchist, theocratic or God forbid (lol) republican take, it is going to anger equal number od people. Seriously, the only more risky modern civs would be Israel or Yugoslavia.

ehecatzin · Apr 26, 2020

conorbebe said:
If they end up giving camel cavalry to Mali, I’m not going to be happy. Camel cavalry was utilised mainly in the Middle East, not Africa. The Mali did not use camels in their military forces; they used horses. There’s an entire Wikipedia article on the military history of the Mali Empire, with no mention of camel cavalry.

If there is a need to include camels as a military unit in the game, give it to Arabia, who actually used them in their conquests.

The Mali Empire used camels to transport people and goods, not in warfare. They should have the Mandekalu horsemen or Sofa as their EU.

Any chance we might get a Berber culture as opposed to either Mali or Songhai? (ot that the camel is rather a cavalry skin?)

BuchiTaton said:
I doubt Iroquois would be Industrial, we dont know yet how much cover Early Modern, Industrial and Contemporary, but I feel Industrial would start at some point of 19th century. Put Incas or especially Aztecs feel forced on Early Modern, but they at least manage to scratch Early Modern.

Sioux and Apaches are a better NA native option for Industrial Era.
.

The other place to have them would be on early M. but that would kick the Incas out. They were relevant during the whole colonization era and were central during the French and Indian wars, I think they fit quite well on industrial. To me the era is also about clash of cultures between imperialist powers vs local resistance, Zulu, Siam, Haudenosaunee and even Iran/Afghanistan fits in here.

Krajzen said:
I think industrial era islamic representation is either Iran or Afghans. Both of them would be unorthodox for such game so it's basically about trusting devs to not make more than half civs in this era culturally European, and rest is focus. Late Iran would be most probably aestethe, while Afghans militarist. I'd just bet on Iran more because of hope Persian civ is getting some successor, as Humankind seemingly likes to add civs that way.

As for Iroquis, I just vaguely recall somebody pointing at "Iroquis musketman" combat unit somewhere. They are among few best known and most iconic native American cultures, one of more accomplished, and have more gameplay niches than "militarist because of resistance", such as for example merchant focus, or their unique government, or diplomatic achievements etc. They were also agricultural and have more ideas for quarters than "tent".

Even without that spotted unit I'd point at Iroquis as the most probable NatAm civ. Other tribal groups are either less known, less succesfull, or would force more restricting design (for example being nomadic militarists).

Haudenosaunee are the better fit for vanilla anyway, I'd love to see Sioux or Comanche added later, but maybe once we have actual nomad mechanics in place. (tho we still have to see how the nomad mechanics even work)

Krajzen said:
Regarding modern era, I think both Korea and Turkey have very big chances here. I have chosen Korea because it's probable Joseon is getting a successor civ, and South Korea is incredibly succesfull civilization over last 50-60 years (and in the period 1900 - 1960 a ton of other major things happened around Korea )
Turkey would be major Islamic successor, but I just couldn't fit it in modern era with my setup, unless I have ejected Iran. Having to choose between successor to classical Persia and early modern Ottomans I chose much older civ. Turkish people would be perfectly fine with playing Ottoman Empire glorious - and - never - collapsing - until - 2020 anyway

Besides, the only "obvious" focus for Turkish Republic I can think of is militarist, and that carries a ton of uncomfortable political issues
Though adding 20th century Iran would be even worse. No matter if it were inspired by monarchist, theocratic or God forbid (lol) republican take, it is going to anger equal number od people. Seriously, the only more risky modern civs would be Israel or Yugoslavia.

Yeah I think Amplitude knows whatever focus they choose for modern cultures It's going to ruffle feathers. If they model Turkey after this idea of no longer expanding beyond It's cultural core, they could be...Aestethe maybe? or perhpahs they'll go agrarian and call it a day.
That's honestly why I don't bother trying to guess the focus, we know too little about them to even be able to guess right most of the time.

conorbebe · Apr 26, 2020

ehecatzin said:
Any chance we might get a Berber culture as opposed to either Mali or Songhai? (ot that the camel is rather a cavalry skin?)

You know looking into it, I can't find much evidence that the Berbers used them either, although this is still much more likely due to the Arabisation that took place during the Middle Ages.

For the most part, I can only find evidence that camel archers and cavalry were employed by Middle Eastern empires, at least in pre-modern times, beginning with the ancient Arabs and Persians. They also seemed to have limited use in India, with the Mughal Empire adopting the camel-mounted zamburak into their artillery-focused armies.

j51 · Apr 26, 2020

All ya'll putting Aztecs and Inca in different eras ain't makin' no sense! (Even if that ends up happening, which... :sad:

)

Middle

Spoiler :

Early Modern

Spoiler :

Industrial (We know so little about the last two eras that this and the next list are very tentative.)

Spoiler :

Contemporary

Spoiler :

123john321 · Apr 26, 2020

For everyone saying Canada in the Contemporary Era, what would be there class? Aesthete for multiculturalism? Agraian in the similar vein of Civ 6's "Last Best West"? I can't think any of the other classes would fit at all.

ehecatzin · Apr 26, 2020

j51 said:
All ya'll putting Aztecs and Inca in different eras ain't makin' no sense! (Even if that ends up happening, which... )

well that's why I'm also considering Songhai in early modern and Incas on medieval as a possibility. Tho if you consider the Incas until the neo Incan empire you could maybe stretch them to early modern?

I agree with you tho, I'm just giving Mali priority over Songhai, Incas and Aztecs should be on the same era if possible.

Catoninetales_Amplitude · Apr 27, 2020

Gwydden said:
Again, I think a roster aimed at history enthusiasts would look very different to one meant for a general audience.

"History Enthusiasts" versus "general audience" is indeed a balancing act that has some impact on the choice of cultures (though it is not the only factor.)

Siptah said:
old graphics for the Mycenaean EQ or City Center is my best guess for that architecture. Not that would make sense in that surrounding.

I can at least tell you that this is not a replacement for the Mycenean City Center. Both are present in the same city in the Shaping Your Legacy Feature Focus

mitsho said:
scientist - algebra is literally a arabic term;

I remember learning about Al-Khwarizmi and his Al-Jabr in university. I had been vaguely aware of the Arabic roots of the term before, but seeing the actual algorithms he described gave me a much better impression and appreciation of their scientific efforts than that vague "Algebra comes from Arabia" we got in high school.

Jcturmer · Apr 27, 2020

BuchiTaton said:
Agree. One unit I would like to see are is an Early Modern or Industrial Tuareg camel cavalry.

And who do you think would get the Zamburak?
- Early Modern Iran
- Industrial Afghanistan

Personally I want it for Industrial Afghanistan.

Maybe Morocco for Industrial Era. They share history with France in the XIX and the beginning of the XX century.

Boris Gudenuf · Apr 27, 2020

Catoninetales_Amplitude said:
". . . I remember learning about Al-Khwarizmi and his Al-Jabr in university. I had been vaguely aware of the Arabic roots of the term before, but seeing the actual algorithms he described gave me a much better impression and appreciation of their scientific efforts than that vague "Algebra comes from Arabia" we got in high school.

But just to take it back another step, while the European West got 'Algebra' from the Islamic World, the Hindu mathematician (and astronomer, they went together at the time) Aryabhatta in the 6th century CE wrote a treatise in which he covered algebraic quadratic equations, plane and spherical trigonometry, sines, and calculated (accurately!) the diameter of the earth and length of the sidereal year. And just under a century later, Brahmaguptra in the Siddhanta described place notation and the zero and explained derivations from algebraic equations.
Muhammed ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi was building on a long Hindu tradition of mathematical knowledge. His "Book of Calculation by Completion and Balancing" was the first to show clearly how to solve both linear and quadratic equations, so it deservedly got him the title "Father of Algebra", but he wasn't really pioneering the mathematical concepts involved.

Oh, and as an aside, "Indian Numerals" with the Zero and place notation weren't original to India. They have been tracked back to Cambodia a century or so before they show up in any Indian writings, and the Mayan glyphs show what appears to be "zero' notation over 500 years earlier!

BuchiTaton · Apr 27, 2020

j51 said:
All ya'll putting Aztecs and Inca in different eras ain't makin' no sense! (Even if that ends up happening, which... )

Agree aboout the proper option to have Aztec and Incas on Medieval Era. Centainly Aztecs and/or Incas being Early Modern and/or on different eras is not the best option.
But there are some reasons why could make sense:
- They shared mostly the same time range, but they didnt have direct contact, so there are no interaction to simulate between them.
- Spaniards conquered both with few years of difference, but the game could simulate that with a player that change to Incas from X previous culture and other that keep Aztec from medieval.
- Technology is not linear, there are some elements where Aztec was ahead of Incas and vice versa, but Incas was more a true organized empire while Aztec was a alliance of bully city-states, Incas used metal weapons in a higher degree, and most importantly Incas resisted way more than Aztecs including Neo-Inca state and Túpac Amaru II revolt.
- Have either Incas and/or Aztecs as Early Modern cultures open place to longest Andean and Mesoamerican lines
Chavin(Agrarian)>Moche(Militaristic)>Tiwanaku(Builder)>Inca(Expansionist)>Peruvian(Aesthete)
Olmec(Aesthete)>Mayan(Builder)>Zapotec(Militaristic)>Aztec(Agrarian)>Mexican(Aesthete)

I would love to see a robust group of cultures from the same region at the same time like Mixtec, Purepecha and Aztec on the same era. But how many cultures could Humankind have at their final version?
Said for example cover lines for the next regions: 1-Southern Europe, 2-Western Europe, 3-Central Europe, 4-Eastern Europe, 5-Northern Europe, 6-Anatoli+Caucasus, 7-Levant, 8-North Africa, 9-Horn of Africa, 10- West Africa, 11-East Africa, 12-South Africa, 13-Persia, 14-Central Asia, 15-India, 16-South East Asia, 17-China, 18-East Asia(not China), 19-North America, 20- Mesoamerica, 21- Andes, 22-South America, 23-Oceania, etc.

I think that if we gonna have "CELTS" and not Gauls, is because devs dont have plans to add Britons, Gaels or Picts later. Same with Persians. If Medieval Mali then probably Songhai would be Early Modern. Have Ghana, Mali, Kanem and Songhai at the same time could be awesome but I see it unlikely.
Probably the only exception to one or a couple or representative by era would be Europe since Classical, West Asia on Ancient, and East Asia from Medieval-Early Modern? to Industrial-Contemporary? Because obvious reasons.

America would probably get an Mesoamerican, North American, Andean and maybe with some luck a Rest of South America line at the end of the cycle.
NOTE: By line I mean as it could be possible. For example is hard to see an ancient north american culture. For sure their slot could be used for Sumerians or anyther well know culture.

mitsho · Apr 28, 2020

If you have Mexico and (Gran) Columbia as Industrial era cultures, you have a thorough line from Ancient to Modern where you transcend twice (in Early Modern and Modern). I feel like transcending needs to be taken into account while building these chains. For this reason, I feel like both belong to the medieval era. But that is my opinion and even that we have that discussion here shows that it is debatable and you really can put both of them in both eras.

I wouldn't think in lines either as they can cross and split and so on. And in the end, gameplay is what matters so it may get increasingly difficult to differentiate say Mali from Ghana, Kanem and Songhai to take your example. The 23 lines above means up to 138 cultures. I don't see the gameplay value even if you can find as many cultures. I rather guess having the whole roster and experience in gameplay will show where you can add a few more cultures. But I don't think they will strife to include "all" of history in the "correct" way.

Catoninetales_Amplitude said:
I remember learning about Al-Khwarizmi and his Al-Jabr in university. I had been vaguely aware of the Arabic roots of the term before, but seeing the actual algorithms he described gave me a much better impression and appreciation of their scientific efforts than that vague "Algebra comes from Arabia" we got in high school.

And yeah, I was shortening horribly when linking Arabs to Algebra. I must confess, I didn't know more than the "highschool abbreviation" myself

But this isn't a scientific forum either, so I felt okay doing that

123john321 said:
For everyone saying Canada in the Contemporary Era, what would be there class? Aesthete for multiculturalism? Agrarian in the similar vein of Civ 6's "Last Best West"? I can't think any of the other classes would fit at all.

Agrarian may certainly work. I can see also room for other traits than the seven we have known so far (that map onto the avenues to gain the stars). There could be some that combine two of the avenues or an all-rounder trait. Multiculturalism could be a trait on its own. Or bureaucratic (not for Canada), but diplomatic may be a good fit for Canada - whatever it may do. Of the existing I can see builder (= extracting resources), expansionist (= settling the great unknown north), merchant (= quite high BIP) and you already mentioned agrarian and aesthete.

Again, if you want to, you can make a case for nearly anything anywhere.

Catoninetales_Amplitude · Apr 28, 2020

BuchiTaton said:
List of 23 different uninterrupted chains of cultures

As mitsho said, let's not get ahead of ourselves. That's a lot of different cultures, and it would pretty much push the number of combinations off the charts. (23 cultures per era, taking Transcendence into account, leads to 183,140,352 possible combinations...

mitsho said:
And yeah, I was shortening horribly when linking Arabs to Algebra. I must confess, I didn't know more than the "highschool abbreviation" myself But this isn't a scientific forum either, so I felt okay doing that

Let's be fair: That well runs very deep (As Boris points out), and you could probably fill several university courses and still only scratch the surface.

Krajzen · Apr 28, 2020

@Catoninetales_Amplitude

What is going to be the reasoning of AI players behind changing cultures with eras or remaining with old ones? Is this purely opportunistic, or "builders tend to switch to builders", or: does AI have a increased probability to switch to a culture that was IRL descendant of its previous one?

An example. The AI player is Mycenae, fighting n doing militarist stuff. Then he gets access to a very rich coast. Now it can
a) Remain on the militarist patch, adopting some classical era militarist culture or remaining its old one
b) Capitalize on the rich coast by adopting Carthage
c) Become Greece because it's historical and therefore cool

What outcome is the most probable and most expected from AI civs when transitioning between eras?
How often are AIs changing civs with every new era?

PS
Could you tell me please, what is the official nomenclature for "adopt new civ in new era" and "remain old civ in new era", as I always keep forgetting

Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

Who will you play first?

Assyrians

Babylonians

Egyptians

Harappans

Hittites

Mycenaeans

Nubians

Olmecs

Phoenicians

Zhou

Random

Deity

Deity

Prince

Emperor

Deity

King

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

King

Blue Star Cadet

Warlord

Emperor

Prince

Chieftain

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Prince

Deity

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