Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

Who will you play first?

  • Assyrians

    Votes: 2 2.9%
  • Babylonians

    Votes: 5 7.2%
  • Egyptians

    Votes: 5 7.2%
  • Harappans

    Votes: 12 17.4%
  • Hittites

    Votes: 2 2.9%
  • Mycenaeans

    Votes: 5 7.2%
  • Nubians

    Votes: 3 4.3%
  • Olmecs

    Votes: 6 8.7%
  • Phoenicians

    Votes: 10 14.5%
  • Zhou

    Votes: 9 13.0%
  • Random

    Votes: 10 14.5%

  • Total voters
    69
Agreed. Obviously the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms are extremely interesting, but the later Middle Ages in England are dominated by the Norman Conquest.

England (such as it is) essentially remains a small regional power until the personal and legal unions with Scotland in the 17th/18th centuries, so it should not really be in anyone’s shortlist for medieval cultures, especially when they are guaranteed a starring role in later eras.
 
The English are indeed in. Apart from appearing on the tech tree, they have shown their city center in two of the videos (reveal and sharing legacy) and one even included longbowmen units standing next to the city.
 
Yes hopefully no England in Medieval although the allure of the Longbowman may be too great! Admittedly they were very fun (broken?) to use in Civ V but ideally for me they would save the longbowman for a DLC Welsh faction way down the line!
 
The English are indeed in. Apart from appearing on the tech tree, they have shown their city center in two of the videos (reveal and sharing legacy) and one even included longbowmen units standing next to the city.

The appeal of the Hundred Years War was too strong for the developers to resist I see... :lol:
 
I have to say, I honestly hope that English/ Anglo Saxons with Longbowmen are not in the medieval era on release. I read in one of the articles that they would be present, probably to represent the hundred years war. When it looked like the Celts were not present, I figured any old information was unreliable, but now I'm reevaluating and I'd guess that the English will be present.

The English on medieval seems a bad choice in my opinion for a number of reasons. If you want naval powers, there are Majapahit, Swahili, and Polynesia who will likely go unrepresented on release. If you want to represent dramatic conflicts, there are the Mamluks for the Crusades (as opposed to just as a unit for the Arabians) and the Sassanians for the Islamic Conquests and Byzantine-Sassanian Wars who have not been mentioned in any of the released material so far. If you want to focus on a region of the world that blossomed in that period there are the Toltecs, Puebloans, and Mississippians in North America or the Chola, Majapahit, Swahili, and Great Zimbabwe along with the Arabians and Khmer for the Indian Ocean trade who of course can't all fit but are likely to be entirely absent. If you want predecessors to more famous states there are the Toltec, Tiwanaku, or Tran Dynasty Vietnam. If you want interesting ranged units there are early gunpowder weapons in East Asia like Song fire lances, Dai Viet cannons, Javan warships, and Korean hwachas.

I understand that this game has to sell, and that developments in medieval England would have huge repercussions on the fate of the world due to Britain's rise to power in future eras, but I feel like it would be a lost opportunity to have the English. They will certainly be present as the British Empire and UK anyways, and would fill a culture slot in the Medieval Era when other regions of the world were doing the best they would for centuries before the turmoil to come with the arrival of imperialism. I still have faith in the game, but I really was expecting someone else outside Europe for the Classical Era instead of the Celts, and while I can recognize the Celt's importance I really hope the Medieval Era doesn't have 50% of the cultures be European on release.
There's a wealth of choices for any era, that's for sure. While geographic diversity is certainly one factor when deciding who makes the cut, it's apparently not the one with the most weight; not for Civ and not for HK, and probably not for most other games. And there's always a lot of subjectivity, for example I would never want to exchange Abbasids or Umayyads for Mamluks.

I wouldn't lose my faith in the game even when we only had cultures from Asia and two African ones to signal "we will eventually bring more of them," as Amplitude invested quite some effort in keeping Endless Legend alive and continued to publish new and interesting material that focused on previously neglected aspects (espionage, water, seasons for example). They even sourced out the work on two expansions. Each of the EL expansions had this focus and a faction tailored to this focus. HK could follow this model (focussing on regions, as PDX does), or they could switch to something more civ V/VI-like with (outsourced?) culture packs and expansions introducing new mechanics. Creating new cultures for HK seems less work than for EL or civ VI, and as balancing that million choices of combinations is not really possible, long-time balancing might be something that happens mostly with user feedback after we can get the hands on the game. So I'm sure - depending on a certain level of success of the game - that we'll see quite some more cultures in the future. 60 will be quite enough for the start (it will take quite a while until we figure out more than a few outstanding combinations), and as long as the included ones are worth playing and are all reasonable choices gameplay-wise (which for example Medieval England with a badass archer unit could bring), I don't mind not having Sumer, Han, Majapahit or Swahili.

As an example: I would be surprised if we don't see 2 native American cultures in vanilla. On the other hand, if we lack them completely or get only the Iroquois, it might point to a future expansion that focuses on this region, with maybe an interesting twist in mechanics.
Medieval era too crowded with Europeans in vanilla? We might be due an expansion "Humankind: Golden Pagodas and Rhinoceroses" to introduce some cultures from neglected areas.
 
The English are indeed in. Apart from appearing on the tech tree, they have shown their city center in two of the videos (reveal and sharing legacy) and one even included longbowmen units standing next to the city.

Thanks for that I went back to the reveal trailer and caught the longbowmen I see they've given them the bowl helmet which looks good! But it does put into question if a British culture will show up in the following eras if they get three like China appears to be then it should be an uninterrupted chain from medieval to industrial.
 
I personally don't worry too much about the lack of certain civs or representation. The way they made the game makes it very easy to create new civs, which they will certainly do in expansions or packs.
 
The English should definitely be an Early Modern culture over a Medieval one, but it's hard to argue with the evidence before us.

Additionally, I think I can spot the Venetian flag next to the galleass in the Renaissance Era segment of the tech tree, so this seems to confirm the position of this culture. I think I can make out "Turtle Ship" below it as well, so that seems to confirm Joseon Korea for Early Modern as well. Based on this information, and my expectation to see also Edo Japan in the Early Modern era, I'm guessing Ming with be the East Asian Medieval pick.

With this in mind, here is my updated prediction for the Medieval Era line-up:
  1. Abbasids (Arabians)
    Probably Scientist, but possibly Agrarian given the Arab Agricultural Revolution.
  2. Aztecs
    I think Militarist would be most fitting, but the case could also be made for Agrarian due to their use of chinampas.
  3. English
    I can hardly believe I'm saying this but... Agrarian?! Maybe Merchant.
  4. Franks
    Really not sure. Aesthete? Militarist?
  5. Khmer
    I'd say Builder. Yes, the Khmer Empire was founded on agricultural communities, but their legacy lies in the great temples and monuments they left behind.
  6. Malians
    Has to be Merchant, although so far all the true African cultures have had this classification as well, so maybe they'll mix it up.
  7. Ming
    I think Builder would make a lot of sense here, given the construction of the Forbidden City and the extensions to the Great Wall of China, but Aesthete could work too.
  8. Mongolians
    Expansionist, surely, or Militarist.
  9. Teutons (Holy Roman Empire)
    Also Expansionist? Aesthete works here too.
  10. Vikings (Norwegians)
    Militarist? Expansionist? I'm not really sure how the two are distinguished when it comes to expansion by force.
 
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For me Militarist fits cultures with strong warrior traditions or those that just engaged in a lot of warfare but not nessicarily for empire building. It fits Goths and Huns well as they engaged in a lot of looting and sacking and fought in major battles but arn't really remembred for carving out great empires

From a gameplay standpoint I think I'd choose a militarist culture if I was looking to plunder neighbours or give myself a military boost to defend my own lands. Perhaps militarist cultures will be good at getting armys up quickly so they might be a good pick if you've been passive and neglecting military. Theres something very satisfying in the possiblity of switching gears into a militarist culture to get an edge over a neighbour who has perhaps gotten ahead of you. Hopefully these cultures really give you a dangerous military edge in compensation for sacrificing a chance to boost your science or wealth.

Expansionist would be for gaining new land either through colonisation or conquest. I imagine expansionist civs bonuses will be more related to assimilating new cities and making them pay off sooner but may not really offer many advantages to getting the cities in the first place. I could be way off though it would be interesting to know how the developers frame these two culture types but we may not know until we start seeing the specific bonuses.
 
Agreed. Obviously the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms are extremely interesting, but the later Middle Ages in England are dominated by the Norman Conquest.

England (such as it is) essentially remains a small regional power until the personal and legal unions with Scotland in the 17th/18th centuries, so it should not really be in anyone’s shortlist for medieval cultures, especially when they are guaranteed a starring role in later eras.
I would argue England under the Plantagenets was the most consistently powerful Christian realm in Western Europe, at times holding Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and most of France. They deserve to be in at least as much as the French, I would say. The only European civ that I'd personally call essential for this period would be the Byzantines, but CIV has always had a strange aversion to putting them in vanilla and it's looking like HK will follow suit.

I'd revise my medieval roster to include Arabs (Scientist), Aztecs (Militarist), English (Builder), Franks (Aesthete), Ghana/Mali (Merchant), Inca (Agrarian), Khmer (Builder), Mongols (Expansionist), Teutons (Expansionist), and Vikings (Militarist).
 
I would argue England under the Plantagenets was the most consistently powerful Christian realm in Western Europe, at times holding Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and most of France. They deserve to be in at least as much as the French, I would say. The only European civ that I'd personally call essential for this period would be the Byzantines, but CIV has always had a strange aversion to putting them in vanilla and it's looking like HK will follow suit.

I'd revise my medieval roster to include Arabs (Scientist), Aztecs (Militarist), English (Builder), Franks (Aesthete), Ghana/Mali (Merchant), Inca (Agrarian), Khmer (Builder), Mongols (Expansionist), Teutons (Expansionist), and Vikings (Militarist).

A fair point, although if we’re including the Carolingian Empire in with the Franks it’s hard to oppose their inclusion based on how influential this kingdom was in shaping Western European culture.

I agree the Byzantines should be in. If the Phoenicians get to transform into the Carthaginians, Amplitude is missing a trick if we can’t do the same from Roman to Byzantine.
 
I would argue England under the Plantagenets was the most consistently powerful Christian realm in Western Europe, at times holding Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and most of France. They deserve to be in at least as much as the French, I would say. The only European civ that I'd personally call essential for this period would be the Byzantines, but CIV has always had a strange aversion to putting them in vanilla and it's looking like HK will follow suit.

I'd revise my medieval roster to include Arabs (Scientist), Aztecs (Militarist), English (Builder), Franks (Aesthete), Ghana/Mali (Merchant), Inca (Agrarian), Khmer (Builder), Mongols (Expansionist), Teutons (Expansionist), and Vikings (Militarist).

Yeah this seems like the most likely list now. Except I don't see the English as builders. Maybe, Aesthetes? The Franks/Capetians could be builders though...
 
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As an example: I would be surprised if we don't see 2 native American cultures in vanilla. On the other hand, if we lack them completely or get only the Iroquois, it might point to a future expansion that focuses on this region, with maybe an interesting twist in mechanics.

:confused: But we already have 2 native American cultures completely confirmed, Olmecs and Maya...
 
Yeah this seems like the most likely list now. Except I don't see the English as builders. Maybe, Aesthetes? The Franks/Capetians could be builders though...
Medieval England is not an obvious fit for any of the archetypes and a lot of them are taken up by better matching civs, but I'm guessing Builder because of the Normans' castle rush. Wales has the greatest concentration of medieval castles out of any European nation—not English per se, but neither is the longbowman originally. I could maybe see Agrarian on account of the yeoman archer and the first recorded windmills. The only reason I can think of for Aesthete is universities like Oxford, but France had universities too and I think it takes precedence because of the Carolingian renaissance and basically inventing medieval courtly culture.
 
People have noted that eras seem to follow a certain theme plus some cultures to complete the world representation, and by classical we saw there's a chance even some areas might go without one for an era. (of course not Europe), but that's to be expected.

Now for medieval, if the English are in I imagine the main theme would probably be Crusades and 100 years war. I'll be honest I kinda don't want the English to be medieval, but if they are at least that opens a spot in early modern, AND, it would mean that both England and France get their own upgrades at the same time, fitting really:

MEDIEVAL
England (with Norman flavor)
Franks (with Capetian flavor)

EARLY MODERN

they both skip, exploration and renaissance is most likely the theme here

INDUSTRIAL
Great Britain
France

If England is in it could explain why Teutons are in as opposed to HRE, It's so they can focus on the 100 year war and Teutons can fill the Northern crusader spot (again, crusades).

My new list, considering, England seems to be in.

  1. Arabia
  2. Aztecs
  3. Byzantium
  4. England
  5. Franks
  6. Goryeo
  7. Khmer
  8. Mongols
  9. Teutons
  10. Vikings
I think this has a very interesting crusader and 100 years war feel, plus a few cultures that were very relevant in their period. I'm thinking Asia will get Ming and Edo on early m., followed by Meiji on industrial, CCP, Korea and Japan on modern.
 
Spoiler :
Medieval England is not an obvious fit for any of the archetypes and a lot of them are taken up by better matching civs, but I'm guessing Builder because of the Normans' castle rush. Wales has the greatest concentration of medieval castles out of any European nation—not English per se, but neither is the longbowman originally. I could maybe see Agrarian on account of the yeoman archer and the first recorded windmills. The only reason I can think of for Aesthete is universities like Oxford, but France had universities too and I think it takes precedence because of the Carolingian renaissance and basically inventing medieval courtly culture.
That makes some sense, but I'd think that the French medieval cathedrals are more significant as monuments than Welsh castles (or even English cathedrals). As for medieval English culture, the flourishing of literature in Middle English is notable, which then continued its efflorescence in Early Modern English. (Keep in mind that the English are a culture that would be transcending to the Early Modern period per Humankind's model.) That said, it is tricky to find a non-military trait that England would have led France in during this period.

Spoiler :
People have noted that eras seem to follow a certain theme plus some cultures to complete the world representation, and by classical we saw there's a chance even some areas might go without one for an era. (of course not Europe), but that's to be expected.

Now for medieval, if the English are in I imagine the main theme would probably be Crusades and 100 years war. I'll be honest I kinda don't want the English to be medieval, but if they are at least that opens a spot in early modern, AND, it would mean that both England and France get their own upgrades at the same time, fitting really:

MEDIEVAL
England (with Norman flavor)
Franks (with Capetian flavor)

EARLY MODERN

they both skip, exploration and renaissance is most likely the theme here

INDUSTRIAL
Great Britain
France

If England is in it could explain why Teutons are in as opposed to HRE, It's so they can focus on the 100 year war and Teutons can fill the Northern crusader spot (again, crusades).

My new list, considering, England seems to be in.

  1. Arabia
  2. Aztecs
  3. Byzantium
  4. England
  5. Franks
  6. Goryeo
  7. Khmer
  8. Mongols
  9. Teutons
  10. Vikings
I think this has a very interesting crusader and 100 years war feel, plus a few cultures that were very relevant in their period. I'm thinking Asia will get Ming and Edo on early m., followed by Meiji on industrial, CCP, Korea and Japan on modern.
What about the Inca? I hope they are included and it doesn't really make sense to have them and the Aztecs in separate eras. And if they did do that, shouldn't the Inca be in the Middle Ages and the Aztecs in the Early Modern, because Cuzco has an older foundation than Tenochtitlan?
 
I think this has a very interesting crusader and 100 years war feel, plus a few cultures that were very relevant in their period. I'm thinking Asia will get Ming and Edo on early m., followed by Meiji on industrial, CCP, Korea and Japan on modern.
We're largely in agreement. But observant people have already spotted the hwacha, so I'm fairly certain Joseon is in for Early Modern. Like you said, they're skipping regions, and I think the Mongols and Khmer will have to represent East/Southeast Asia for the Middle Ages. I'm not entirely sure about the theme idea; focusing on the Mediterranean for the Bronze Age and the Classical Era is par for the course.

For Early Modern, my current best guesses based on what people have dug up are Dutch (Merchant), Iroquois (Agrarian), Joseon (Scientist), Ming (Builder), Mughal (Builder), Muromachi Japan (Militarist), Ottomans (Expansionist), Polish (Aesthete), Spanish (Expansionist), and Venetians (Merchant). I could see four European civs becoming the norm.
 
Medieval England is not an obvious fit for any of the archetypes and a lot of them are taken up by better matching civs, but I'm guessing Builder because of the Normans' castle rush. Wales has the greatest concentration of medieval castles out of any European nation—not English per se, but neither is the longbowman originally. I could maybe see Agrarian on account of the yeoman archer and the first recorded windmills. The only reason I can think of for Aesthete is universities like Oxford, but France had universities too and I think it takes precedence because of the Carolingian renaissance and basically inventing medieval courtly culture.

Assuming you mean specifically Medieval windmills, (because they are first recorded in Iran/Persia much earlier), England may have had the greatest concentration of 'mills' by the time of the Domesday Book (it lists over 6000 in 1086 CE, but, significantly, does NOT specify what kind they were: windmills, watermills, or people/animal-powered mills), but there is still a lot of controversy over which European country had the 'first' windmills, and in any case they apparently spread from Persia after about 950 CE, which (so far!) is the earliest 'Medieval' origin-point for them.

As to including England because of the Hundred Year's War, this makes perfect sense for a company based in Paris: France won that war, despite the longbows and Henry V.
 
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