Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

[Krajzen]

The big question is whether there will more than one faction for the Japanese and Koreans at launch.....
I could see the developers avoiding the period of Japanese history from Meiji to WW2. Maybe Post-WW2 Japan would be featured instead.

I'm 95% certain we'll get modern Japan, it is simply too important in 20th century to not make it culture here. And Korea is one of the most likely modern cultures as well, seeing its massive prosperity and power over last 50 years.

By the way, why would developers avoid imperialistic period of Japan? Civ series never had an issue with displaying Japanese ww2 planes and German ww2 tanks as unique units, or making both cultures militaristic.

 

[pineappledan]

By the way, why would developers avoid imperialistic period of Japan? Civ series never had an issue with displaying Japanese ww2 planes and German ww2 tanks as unique units, or making both cultures militaristic.

perhaps if people feel like portraying nazi Germany in a video game isn’t a good choice, for any number of reasons, that portraying imperial japan would be in bad taste for the same reasons? I think it would be intellectually dishonest to exclude one on moral grounds, but not the other.

 

[Guandao]

I'm 95% certain we'll get modern Japan, it is simply too important in 20th century to not make it culture here. And Korea is one of the most likely modern cultures as well, seeing its massive prosperity and power over last 50 years.

By the way, why would developers avoid imperialistic period of Japan? Civ series never had an issue with displaying Japanese ww2 planes and German ww2 tanks as unique units, or making both cultures militaristic.

So if modern Japan is in, the Early Modern Japan would have to be renamed to something like Tokugawa/Edo, etc.

Those are units, Civ has never depicted the Nazi German and imperial Japanese leaders. I rather not see Hirohito or Hideki Tojo in Civ ever. I know Firaxis is avoiding the Japanese emperors entirely, presumably to avoid offending certain Japanese who revere them.

I also rather not have the Contemporary Era Japanese art in Humankind referencing the military might of the Japanese Empire. Like showing a kamikaze pilot slamming into a ship. Or Japanese soldiers with prisoners.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So if modern Japan is in, the Early Modern Japan would have to be renamed to something like Tokugawa/Edo, etc.

I'm expecting the names Japanese and Koreans personally for the Early Modern Era. I think the Vietnamese could show up for Modern Era for East Asia that's not China.

I also rather not have the Contemporary Era Japanese art in Humankind referencing the military might of the Japanese Empire. Like showing a kamikaze pilot slamming into a ship. Or Japanese soldiers with prisoners.

I could possibly see if they wanted to do modern Japan it could be depicted post-1945, at least in the culture card and be scientific or aesthete (Hello anime and manga).

 

[Elhoim]

I could possibly see if they wanted to do modern Japan it could be depicted post-1945, at least in the culture card and be scientific or aesthete (Hello anime and manga).

Japan's culture card in the modern era:

 

[Guandao]

I'm expecting the names Japanese and Koreans personally for the Early Modern Era. I think the Vietnamese could show up for Modern Era for East Asia that's not China.


I could possibly see if they wanted to do modern Japan it could be depicted post-1945, at least in the culture card and be scientific or aesthete (Hello anime and manga).

Is Communist Vietnam ok for a portrayal in this game? Heh, at least it’s not the Khmer Rouge....

agreed that post 1945 Japan is the likely portrayal for Contemporary Japan. A scene of a street in Tokyo would be nice. I forgot the name of the district.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Is Communist Vietnam ok for a portrayal in this game? Heh, at least it’s not the Khmer Rouge....

I mean apparently its also okay to have the PRC in the game and presumably the Soviets as well.
I have a feeling that Vietnam would get in somehow because of it's relationship with France, and Amplitude is a French gaming studio. To me the Modern Era makes the most sense if it will be in the base game at this point.
And yes thank goodness we can't have two Khmers.

agreed that post 1945 Japan is the likely portrayal for Contemporary Japan. A scene of a street in Tokyo would be nice. I forgot the name of the district.

I'm sure they would still have to have an imperial emblematic unit like the zero fighter plane.

 

[notNamed]

agreed that post 1945 Japan is the likely portrayal for Contemporary Japan. A scene of a street in Tokyo would be nice. I forgot the name of the district.

The issue with our contemporary Japan is that they do not have an army. They have police officers with assault rifles who are constitutionally forbidden from firing on anyone not currently invading Japanese mainland.
It's a really cool gimmick for Japan but not one fit for a 4X game striving to depict reality believably. which at the same time requires each culture to cough up some emblematic soldiers and provide an arsenal of generic units.
Hence if it's Japan, Japanese Empire is really the only viable choice ATM unless Contemporary throws away all the established rules for cultures.

 

[Krajzen]

There are no leaders in Humankind. I think Japan will get an image from Tokyo street or whatever, some mighty economic affinity, WW2 military unit and whatever building.

I wouldn't be surprised if no culture got militarist in modern era. "Militarist culture in modern era" in HK carries a ton of uniquely terrible implications, absent from Civ series in this regard.
It's one thing to make some samurai leader of Mashup Japan, or Barbarossa/Frederick/Bismarck leader of Mashup Germany, and make their main ability militarist in character. It's much worse to specifically point at the Modern Culture: Germans, Affinity Militarist/Expansionist

But ww2 units for GER/JAP were never an issue in aby games like this.

Not only modern militarist cultures are a problem, expansionist are as well - even more so because few of them even fit the characteristic. The only cultures I could give this affinity in this era are Soviets, Japan (very problematic) and Germany (insanely problematic ).

Oh wait, I have found totally non controversial modern era expansionist culture! Islamic State.

 

[Siptah]

We do not know the expansionist trade yet and how exactly it is understood. Imperialist contemporary states, like the US, Israel or the PRC, might be options. But I don‘t think we‘ll see that combination.

 

[need my speed]

While thinking of the Contemporary Era, I could easily have put in twice as many cultures, given that it seems to cover anything from WWI onwards. I had to reduce the various European candidates (UK, Germany - but they all exist in the era(s) just prior to this one, so it makes sense to not have them here) to the EU, and I had to leave out countries/cultures such as Australia, Canada, Iran, Japan, Singapore, Turkey, or (North/South) Korea, that could have very much fit in.

Arabia - Merchant
Brazil - Builder
EU - Aesthete
India - Agrarian
Indonesia - Merchant
Nigeria - Agrarian
PRC - Builder (Agrarian, but others fit that better, vice versa with India)
USA - Scientist (Expansionist, but also the best fit for Scientist, vice versa with USSR)
USSR - Expansionist
Vietnam - Militarist

Actually, ideally I'd find a way to put in Australia (unique frontier culture?), Canada (unique peace culture, but perhaps somewhat similar to the multiculturalism-culture of the EU), Singapore (unique one-city-culture), or Korea (unique... Well, could go either North or South-culture ).

 

[mitsho]

So next week will be a surprise again, right? The candidates are:

Inca
Iroquois / Haudenosaunee
Japan / Edo
Joseon / Korea

And because of the spelling variants, it could be anything. Exciting any other candidates?

 

[ost]

Maybe the "Italians"? If they represent an amalgam of various Italian states/duchies/republics - as opposed to just Venice, which I'd have mixed feelings about

 

[mitsho]

Duh, how could I forget them...

I am quite skeptical, since Galleass is the only proof we have for „the Venetians“. But they don‘t have to be a emblematic unit, they could just be a generic one. In any case, I would prefer Italians to Venice since the latter is really narrow as a culture. (and there‘s no reason we can‘t have early modern AND modern Italians with the same name if they so want).

By the way, do we know whether the minor cultures also evolve with the eras. I‘m guessing they do, and that Portugal could be a good option there. Or Venice (minor) with an Italian (major) culture present as well, that could work. Or not, not sure.

 

[Krajzen]

I'm almost certain that if we see Italians they would be industrial od especially modern culture, when Italy was actually united for the first time, instead of naming this way medieval/EM cultures of Italy - when you could go with so many other options: Venice, Tuscany, Genoa, Milan, Sicily, Naples... It would be so wasteful to use the name "Italy" in these eras.

So next week will be a surprise again, right? The candidates are:
Inca
Iroquois / Haudenosaunee
Japan / Edo
Joseon / Korea
And because of the spelling variants, it could be anything. Exciting any other candidates?

I am quite certain we'd get instantly recognizable and sexy exonym "Iroquis" instead of obscure and barely pronounceable native name. Same way we, thanks God, got "Byzantium" instead of "Romans" (lol), "Teutons" instead of "Holy Roman Empire" (so we have three Roman civs now?!), "Greeks" instead of "Hellens", "Persians" instead of "Iranians", "Aztecs" instead of "Mexica" etc...
We are getting the most recognizable, mainstream names, unless they'd be really incorrent (such as avoiding the name "Vikings" which was name of profession, not people).

Whatever Dynasty Name Japan is almost certain, as we are definitely going to get THE Japan in the modern era.
Korea is less clear case, but I think it really will be Joseon, to enable leaving THE Korea for the modern age.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

By the way, do we know whether the minor cultures also evolve with the eras. I‘m guessing they do, and that Portugal could be a good option there. Or Venice (minor) with an Italian (major) culture present as well, that could work. Or not, not sure.

Yes, but actually no.

I am quite certain we'd get instantly recognizable and sexy exonym "Iroquis" instead of obscure and barely pronounceable native name.

I wouldn't regard Haudenosaunee as any less pronouncable than Iroquis, given how English pronunciation rules are regular in the sense that there basically are no pronunciation rules and thus every word is difficult to pronounce.

 

[pineappledan]

I am quite certain we'd get instantly recognizable and sexy exonym "Iroquis" instead of obscure and barely pronounceable native name. Same way we, thanks God, got "Byzantium" instead of "Romans" (lol), "Teutons" instead of "Holy Roman Empire" (so we have three Roman civs now?!), "Greeks" instead of "Hellens", "Persians" instead of "Iranians", "Aztecs" instead of "Mexica" etc...
We are getting the most recognizable, mainstream names, unless they'd be really incorrent (such as avoiding the name "Vikings" which was name of profession, not people).

i hope you’re wrong about that. Iroquois isn’t just an exonym; it’s a slur. It would be like calling the English civilization the Limeys. If the Haudenosaunee were to be added to the game as the Haudenosaunee then that would be the first time I’ve seen a game company actually use the name that the 6 nations have been asking us to use for generations, and that would be a very positive change.

It’s the barest minimum sign of respect to not call someone ‘Billy’ when they have been asking you to call them ‘William’ for years.

 

[Krajzen]

i hope you’re wrong about that. Iroquois isn’t just an exonym; it’s a slur. It would be like calling the English civilization the Limeys. If the Haudenosaunee were to be added to the game as the Haudenosaunee then that would be the first time I’ve seen a game company actually use the name that the 6 nations have been asking us to use for generations, and that would be a very positive change.

It’s the barest minimum sign of respect to not call someone ‘Billy’ when they have been asking you to call them ‘William’ for years.

Wait really? I had no idea, I vaguely recalled that being 'decent' exonym. Well then, I have to surrender, as I have criticized the term 'Saracens' before lol.
The only problem is, nowadays almost nobody knows 'Iroquis' is a slur, my brain registers it automatically as a cool word for cool people *sigh*

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Wait really? I had no idea, I vaguely recalled that being 'decent' exonym. Well then, I have to surrender, as I have criticized the term 'Saracens' before lol.
The only problem is, nowadays almost nobody knows 'Iroquis' is a slur, my brain registers it automatically as a cool word for cool people *sigh*

Since I grew up in central Pennsylvania, I visited the "Iroquois country" fairly frequently (western New York State) and was soundly corrected early on about how they felt about the name.

But you are absolutely correct that the great majority of people have no idea how exonyms of any kind are viewed by the people involved. Since there is no excuse any more for not knowing the people's original title for themselves (except, of course, in groups for which the language remains largely unknown, like the 'Harappans' or 'Olmecs') I think it is long past time that game companies, at least, get them right . . .

 

[Krajzen]

As I have heard in the second thread that Venice is almost confirmed, I change my predicted cultures for the 57th time:

EARLY MODERN: Dutch Merchant, Joseon Scientist, Kongo Aestethe, Ming Builder, Mughals Builder/Aestethe, Muromachi Militarist, Ottoman Expansionist, Polish Agrarian, Spanish Expansionist, Venetians Merchant
INDUSTRIAL: British Merchant, French Builder, Iranians Aestethe, Iroquis Agrarian, Nepalese Militarist, Russian Expansionist, Siam Aestethe, Swedish Scientist, Zulu goddamn Militarist, and either Prussian Militarist or Austrian Aestethe because I can't decide between those two.
MODERN: American Merchant, Brazil Agrarian, China Builder, Ethiopia Militarist, German Scientist, India Aestethe, Italy Builder, Japan Scientist, Korea Merchant, Soviet Expansionist.

Explanations for weirdest choices:
Poland agrarian actually makes a lot of sense if you know about early modern Poland and how its economy and society worked.
French builder mainly because I had no idea where to put it otherwise, and not only some European culture should have it in the Industrial era, this is the era when they have built Eiffel Tower
Swedish scientist because of Nobel, Linnaeus, Celsius etc.
America merchant because American Capitalism is probably its most iconic affinity.
Brazil agrarian because of its massive agricultural importance and it being one of few modern nations where "agrarian" does seem celebratory instead of denigrating but cultural alternative is very possible as well, with its football, Rio festival, and so on.
German scientist - I really, really hope they won't make MODERN CULTURE GERMAN, AFFINITY: MILITARIST and instead promote incredible achievements of their science.
India agrarian because of its Green Revolution and agri importance, aestethe because of Joga, spirituality, and so on.
Iroquis agrarian because of their very unique society and also themes of, ya know, harmony with nature as opposed to ruthless industrialized exploitation.
Italy builder because of Italian industry, inventors, engineering, cars etc.
Soviet expansionist because very few cultures deserves this affinity in the modern era anyway, and they were probably the most succesful in this aspect.
Ethiopia Militarist, because adding this affinity to most modern cultures feels denigrating, while in case of Ethiopia it feels heroic: resistance to colonialism (famous 1895), stubborn ww2 resistance, moderate underdog marxists winning civil war against insane communist regime...